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Stanley Pain posted:Does the stat site reflect damage done as damage done by shells, or by shells + fire? I'm thinking it's the former. It includes all damage, whether from shells, aircraft, torpedoes, fire or flooding. NTRabbit posted:You are quite clearly not playing the same game that everyone else is, but you keep living in that little seal clubbing land where you can alternate between posting absurd cruiser game screenshots and posts about how they're totally not overperforming and overpowered. Failing that, you could also quote a screenshot I've posted of cruiser game results. It'd at least mean you aren't making everything up. James Garfield fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 19:15
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James Garfield posted:I am waiting for an explanation of how cruisers are better at fighting than battleships despite doing less damage per game at every tier other than 3. Well maybe you aren't posting them, but everyone else is, and if you can't get scores like that in your cruisers then maybe you're just loving terrible at them? Given how much you whine like a stuck pig about big bad carriers sinking your battleships, you clearly suck at driving them as well, so it's not a stretch. And, like I've already said, and you still utterly fail to grasp, these ships are overpowered in the exact same way that that the Waffle E-100 was when introduced - in the hands of the average moron they rush, do quick early damage and then explode, but in the hands of a skilled player the mechanics of the game made them almost unbeatable. Server stats never showed it because the idiot mass distirted the stats, but anyone playing at the time can tell you exactly what it was like. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 19:20
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NTRabbit posted:Took my Kongo out, found a terrible pubbie Omaha who just drove towards me at an oblique angle in a straight line, after coming around an island at 14km. My first salvo did 3k damage, my second salvo got me a devastating strike medal, pretty easy kill - except that in that period of time, HE and fire damage from the Omaha, who could at least shoot straight even if he couldn't sail, took away a little over 2/3 of my Kongo's HP, and I was only able to repair back a tiny portion of that. I like to bitch about being frustrated in BBs as much as the next guy, but if I let a lone Cruiser take 2/3 of my HP away before I murder it, then that's on me being very, very bad. It's not because Cruisers are super-powered murder machines. Especially not a loving Omaha. Even in the Wyoming, I wrecked lone Omahas. Just turning towards one in a BB makes its engine go out, and the ship is 90% citadel. Same for Phoenixes. The lone exception is, possibly, a Cleveland if it starts raining on me at a distance...but even that isn't so bad now that my BBs have the range to punish them back. It only gets bad when multiple CAs team up from different angles. EDIT: To clarify, I'm not great at this game...but I'm good enough to kill an Omaha in a Kongo before it does 30K damage to me in a minute somehow. James Garfield posted:I am waiting for an explanation of how cruisers are better at fighting than battleships despite doing less damage per game at every tier other than 3. Agreed. Devorum fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 19:27
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NTRabbit posted:Well maybe you aren't posting them, but everyone else is, and if you can't get scores like that in your cruisers then maybe you're just loving terrible at them? Given how much you whine like a stuck pig about big bad carriers sinking your battleships, you clearly suck at driving them as well, so it's not a stretch. Where have I posted battle result screenshots at all? Moreover, where have I whined like a stuck pig about big bad carriers sinking my battleships? Your second paragraph is making progress, but it's demonstrably incorrect. As you move from "average players" to "good players" cruisers improve, but battleships improve even more.
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Sep 18, 2015 19:46
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DurosKlav posted:Oh god all the low tier players buying their way into high tier with the Tirpitz, I love you. All that free XP as they havent a single clue how to play high tier. Why yes fire your HE at my cruiser. I'm loving it as well. 15 torp hits on my last Hatsuwhatever game. I want to see if I can hit 20.
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Sep 18, 2015 19:55
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James Garfield posted:
I would like to know what this is, cause fighting high RoF HE spamming cruisers in BB is pretty frustrating. Being lite on fire everywhere and using the repair kit to put them out just to become on fire again pretty quickly is pretty frustrating to me. Also not being a whiny baby, I genuinely want to know how to reduce the HE damage when I am trying to get in close and have a good time. BadLlama fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 19:59
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How does the Pensacola compare to the Cleveland?
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Sep 18, 2015 20:07
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NTRabbit posted:Took my Kongo out, found a terrible pubbie Omaha who just drove towards me at an oblique angle in a straight line, after coming around an island at 14km. My first salvo did 3k damage, my second salvo got me a devastating strike medal, pretty easy kill - except that in that period of time, HE and fire damage from the Omaha, who could at least shoot straight even if he couldn't sail, took away a little over 2/3 of my Kongo's HP, and I was only able to repair back a tiny portion of that. An Omaha will not take out 2/3s of a Kongos healthbar in the 30 seconds it takes the Kongo to reload or even the 60 seconds it takes to reload twice. You got shot by something else. See also the claim that you could only repair back a tiny portion of the damage - that means someone scored full pens or citadel hits on you, not fire or HE damage. Taking this claim of yours at face value, the most likely thing that happened is that you tunnel-visioned on the Omaha and missed another BB dunking a citadel pen or two into you in the meantime. Magni fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 20:14
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NTRabbit posted:Well maybe you aren't posting them, but everyone else is, and if you can't get scores like that in your cruisers then maybe you're just loving terrible at them? Given how much you whine like a stuck pig about big bad carriers sinking your battleships, you clearly suck at driving them as well, so it's not a stretch. Because we totally don't have statistics for the top players either.... NTRabbit.jpg ... where is it, I can't find it now. Edit: The best part of all this? NTRabbit doesn't out perform his BBs with CAs. He also hasn't played more than 20 matches in ANY ship other than both T4 BBs, so its pretty safe to ignore anything he says. Loan Dusty Road fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 20:17
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BadLlama posted:I would like to know what this is, cause fighting high RoF HE spamming cruisers in BB is pretty frustrating. Being lite on fire everywhere and using the repair kit to put them out just to become on fire again pretty quickly is pretty frustrating to me. Point your butt at them. Your front also works, but won't reduce damage as much. When the section runs out of health you'll stop taking damage. It's not perfect because not every shell will hit there, but it makes a noticeable difference.
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Sep 18, 2015 20:19
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James Garfield posted:
Not that this is necessarily the case, but last time I checked, those numbers are averages of all games played. There are a LOT more people playing Clevelands than any other ship, which naturally translates to many more terrible players doing so as well which will drag down the numbers. Also, a well-played BB can indeed do much more damage than a cruiser, but a poorly played one is basically going to nothing outside pure luck. On the other hand, HE spamming with a Cleveland is going to do fairly decent damage even if they're terrible. Not to say a skilled player can't do significantly better than a terrible one, but the difference is much less significant than with battleships. So if you average the extremely high numbers that Fusos and New Mexicos can put out with the pretty low ones that terrible players do - though they still tend to do some simply due to how survivable they are - it's perfectly possible you're going to come up with a higher average than with Clevelands, which have a tendency to cluster in how much damage they do. This by no means make it any less infuriating to watch huge chunks of health burn away because a few salvos caused multiple fires onboard. Repeatedly. Aesis posted:I've been playing both NC and Tirpitz but I have to say Tirpitz is much better as long as there're no CVs around. 15 inch's penetration and damage seems to be non-issue, projectile speed is faster, armour is thicker, hit point is higher, speed is faster and turret turns faster. From my experience fighting at varying range with both ships against each other, it was easier to use Tirpitz because it can afford to take hits when NC can't. North Carolina is more accurate, for one. Tirpitz has pretty bad dispersion on its guns(Its base dispersion is same as Yamato, but with significantly less max range), so it has to get closer. Admittedly it has very good speed for a battleship, but it also needs it in order to get into effective range. And those torpedoes have an extremely limited firing arc, which if someone is used to means they can still dance with one at close range. They're also extremely vulnerable to getting destroyed by an HE salvo, but that's down to luck. As for the air comment, that's a pretty big difference, and one people can't seem to grasp. How long does it take the carrier to get off those two strike missions, hmmm? From initial launch, to first attack, to recovering the first wave, to repeating the process with the second, is probably, what? 4-5, maybe 6 minutes? Congrats, how many battleship salvos can you get off in that amount of time? Ones that, if dispersion favors you, can do more damage in a single salvo than an entire torpedo bomber squadron can with a perfect run. And that time estimation is assuming the CV already knows exactly where you are and can fly a direct route to you, instead of having to go looking, since you're apparently stupid enough not to have any cruiser or aerial cover. Tiers 6-8 are not the realm of dominance by carriers by any means. Tiers 4-5? Sure. 9-10? True there as well, if not to quite the same extent. 6-8? Don't make me laugh. Lord Koth fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 20:36
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Then why are CVs doing more damage in ALL tiers, even 6-8? Maybe we will see this change after the last patch with the CV re-balance, but I haven't seen data on that yet. Loan Dusty Road fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 20:48
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Dustoph posted:Then why are CVs doing more damage in ALL tiers, even 6-8? Because of tier mismatch and the fact that many teams are incredibly bad at covering one another. Yes, that Ryujo can pick on that Wyoming and, assuming the enemy team gives them no support, can take it out with virtual impunity and thus rack up good damage. And the fact that CVs can pick and choose targets reasonably easily means they can do this easier than other higher tier ships in mostly lower tier matches. But comparing within the same tier, like a theoretical pure T6 match, a Ryujo or Independence are much more limited, with Clevelands and their excellent AA abounding. Even the upgraded BBs can kill bomber squadrons that loiter too close without committing to an attack run in a decent amount of time. The biggest thing that leads to those huge damage numbers, especially in the middle tiers, is that ability to pick and choose targets - to go after the weak and stragglers. If a team actually sticks together in a single ball, or even just groups up into multiple groups effectively, CVs suddenly become much less effective, often just providing scouting or using bombers more as an area saturation tool rather than a precise attack against a single target. And with all CVs carrying fighters now, along with a virtually guaranteed same tier CV on the other side, there's suddenly much more of an equal air battle too. edit: Actually, the best illustration of this is in Ranked battles. Given it's limited to only 6-7, along with the fact that it's smaller teams and they normally stick together, I've yet to see CVs having a large impact in them damagewise. Lord Koth fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 21:08
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Lord Koth posted:Not that this is necessarily the case, but last time I checked, those numbers are averages of all games played. There are a LOT more people playing Clevelands than any other ship, which naturally translates to many more terrible players doing so as well which will drag down the numbers. Also, a well-played BB can indeed do much more damage than a cruiser, but a poorly played one is basically going to nothing outside pure luck. On the other hand, HE spamming with a Cleveland is going to do fairly decent damage even if they're terrible. Not to say a skilled player can't do significantly better than a terrible one, but the difference is much less significant than with battleships. That's basically the point. lovely players accomplish relatively more in ships that can fire all HE more effectively. Even then, there's not some huge outlier dragging it up - battleships gain more when you look at good players, but it's like a 20% bigger improvement, not something world-shattering. The cruisers-are-overpowered brigade is saying both "cruisers are too easy to use which lets bad players do well" and "statistics don't show how good cruisers are because only the best players can apply their strengths properly." Fires are annoying, but not really out of the ordinary compared to for example citadel hit damage. I'd rather there were more direct damage and less fire damage, but the amount of damage by itself isn't much of an issue. There aren't many ships that are actually good at HEing battleships to death anyway. edit: I don't remember when the CV patch was but the stats for September 4-12 don't show much mid-tier CV bullshit. Battleships are outdamaging them until tier 9. I think outside of Essex/Midway they addressed most of it. James Garfield fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 21:48
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I find myself rather vastly enjoying ranked battles. Helps i've got a very skilled Cleveland and Nagato for maximum pubby destruction.
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Sep 18, 2015 23:31
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James Garfield posted:Point your butt at them. Your front also works, but won't reduce damage as much. When the section runs out of health you'll stop taking damage. The Wiki says that modules at 0HP still continue to burn and do damage to the ship?
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Sep 19, 2015 00:00
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Blinks77 posted:I find myself rather vastly enjoying ranked battles. Helps i've got a very skilled Cleveland and Nagato for maximum pubby destruction. Same. 6.50 kill/death ratio so far 
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Sep 19, 2015 00:11
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So I've had a load of games in my T8 Amagi now and am feeling pretty annnoyed by Tirpitz. For one thing, there's an average of 4 of them in every match so I'm sick of the sight of them the same way in my Fuso I was sick of seeing Clevelands. At least with Cleveland though, I had no problem destroying them in my Fuso. But the Tirpitz just straight up seems better than Amagi. I have only ever citadelled one. They have more armour, HP, range, speed and torps. The AA argument is moot, as a Montana player put it when comparing to Yamato, it might make the difference between 1 extra plane shot down. Its pretty close to P2W. I would say put an equal skilled player in all 3 of the T8 BBs and the Tirpitz wins every time. NC and Amagi seems a real nice balance IMO. Question is, will I see less of them if/when I get to Izumo? Even more worryingly with everything I've heard about the Izumo, can it take a Tirpitz on 1v1 and more often than not (again assuming equal skill players) come out on top? I know an Iowa will beat a Tirpitz no problem.
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Sep 19, 2015 00:13
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kaesarsosei posted:So I've had a load of games in my T8 Amagi now and am feeling pretty annnoyed by Tirpitz. For one thing, there's an average of 4 of them in every match so I'm sick of the sight of them the same way in my Fuso I was sick of seeing Clevelands. At least with Cleveland though, I had no problem destroying them in my Fuso. Fairly my feelings on it. Before the Tirpitz i was going to keep the NC, now... i'll dump it after i get the Iowa. If i want a Tier 8 BB i'll grab the Tirpitz, it's just generally the better ship.
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Sep 19, 2015 00:36
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What was WG's rationale when deciding that DDs can stop within 5km of a battleship, smoke, and shoot while remaining invisible? poo poo is atrocious.
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Sep 19, 2015 01:18
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So is the Tirpitz any good?
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Sep 19, 2015 02:07
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BadLlama posted:The Wiki says that modules at 0HP still continue to burn and do damage to the ship? You can still be set on fire from hits to a section with 0 health left, and the fire will do its whatver-%-per-tick damage as normal, but the shell hits themselves will stop doing damage(and HE shell hits tend to deal much more damage than the resultant fires). Also, if you're pointed straight at or away from the target as James Garfield describes, you'll likely only be hit in one or two sections (fore/aft and superstructure) so it does limit the number of fires that can be set, indirectly reducing fire damage that way.
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Sep 19, 2015 02:17
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So is there a secret to the Kawachi other than just suffering? It's slow, not manoeuvrable, is outranged by cruisers at its tier, easily gets whittled to death by a HE shells from said cruiser setting it on fire, has a long reload, etc... Hell even when I do hit with a full spread of AP it doesn't seem to do a ton of damage. It doesn't seem good at anything. Like I would have thought the way to play BBs would be to fire at range but this thing can't take hits and has to get close to hit anything...
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Sep 19, 2015 02:21
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Reztes posted:You can still be set on fire from hits to a section with 0 health left, and the fire will do its whatver-%-per-tick damage as normal, but the shell hits themselves will stop doing damage(and HE shell hits tend to deal much more damage than the resultant fires). Also, if you're pointed straight at or away from the target as James Garfield describes, you'll likely only be hit in one or two sections (fore/aft and superstructure) so it does limit the number of fires that can be set, indirectly reducing fire damage that way. Yeah, it's more about reducing damage than eliminating it altogether. You still won't be completely immune (nor should you) but it helps a lot against HE-only ships. Mr Luxury Yacht posted:So is there a secret to the Kawachi other than just suffering?
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Sep 19, 2015 02:32
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Is the drop-off of fun between the Nicholas (Great guns, decent situational torps) to Farragut ( ??? ) similar to Minekaze (No guns of mention, fast torps) to Mutsuki ( Similar guns, awful slow torps)?
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Sep 19, 2015 03:31
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   Had to 2v5 2 Tirpitz, 2 Cleveland and 1 Mutsuki inside 5~10 km. Never a good idea to engage Clevelands at such close range, but me and other Tirpitz wiped them all somehow. However my team was gone  My NC win rate has gone down the drain now, with 15 games and only 3 wins. I'm playing very aggressively (compared to pubbies anyway) but it's just impossible to affect the game when most of my team is gone within 5 minutes. Lord Koth posted:North Carolina is more accurate, for one. Tirpitz has pretty bad dispersion on its guns(Its base dispersion is same as Yamato, but with significantly less max range), so it has to get closer. Admittedly it has very good speed for a battleship, but it also needs it in order to get into effective range. And those torpedoes have an extremely limited firing arc, which if someone is used to means they can still dance with one at close range. They're also extremely vulnerable to getting destroyed by an HE salvo, but that's down to luck. Sure Tier 6~8 CVs are not that great, but almost all times I get CVs in enemy team they're Tier 9~10. It's not hard for them to destroy a Tier 8 battleship with 2 TB squads, and they're fast enough to be back to finish you off if somehow enemy team hasn't focused you by then. And yes I might be stupid enough not to have any cruiser or aerial cover, but it's not like pubbies magically give me aerial cover anyway unless I just decide to sit at near-max range and be really passive, but at this range it's not easy for NC to hit targets unless they keep going straight. e: As for torpedo on Tirpitz, the presence itself is sufficient enough to keep bigger ships from approaching. -Troika- posted:So is the Tirpitz any good? Aesis fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Sep 19, 2015 |
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Sep 19, 2015 04:36
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TSBX posted:Is the drop-off of fun between the Nicholas (Great guns, decent situational torps) to Farragut ( ??? ) similar to Minekaze (No guns of mention, fast torps) to Mutsuki ( Similar guns, awful slow torps)? The Farragut has the exact same guns as the Nicholas, with a bit more range. It'll be hard to tell the ships apart, tbh, barring the torpedo tube layout. You'll be seeing higher tiered ships with frequency, though, and the Farragut's lack of a real big difference from the Nicholas is pretty punishing when you can start to see T9s.
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Sep 19, 2015 04:54
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Okay, what the hell just happened? Just finished playing a match in my Hiryu, for the first time today, on Random(I double-checked afterwards, though given it was both Standard battle and a 12v12, it was somewhat unneeded) and got a victory. That's fine, then it gets weird. I had the victory counted towards my Ranked score(It leveled me too) and it DIDN'T give me my x3 exp modifier. This was just all sorts of strange. edit: Whoops, it was a draw. Wasn't paying enough attention. It giving me ranking points is still odd though. Lord Koth fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Sep 19, 2015 |
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Sep 19, 2015 05:07
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Just looked at the higher US carriers since I hit tier 7. I'm specifically looking at torp and bomb damage. Is it true they do not increase in damage from tier 7-10?
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Sep 19, 2015 06:15
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 So uh, my first ranked battle went pretty well, i citadel'd a Cleveland and a Pensacola to death from full hp within a salvo of each other. Can i assume it goes all downhill from here>?
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Sep 19, 2015 06:54
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I dont know what it is, but i am really sucking it up with the Aoba. I was actually decent with the Furutaka, even when it was crap. I'm telling myself its because of the higher tier ships im seeing, but idk. Ship wants to go head on with people, i get that, but if you close the range too much you are real vulnerable to getting flanked and torpedoed.
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Sep 19, 2015 07:27
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Thanks to the POWER OF TEAMWORK (by teaming with bobatron who was finishing the Omaha grind) in less than 2 hours I got the last 5k XP to finish the Bogue, made ~1.2M silver and bought the Independence. It's so weird going 32 knots in a carrier after having to deal with Slow and Slower for so long. Highlight match of the evening, TORPEDOES ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND Edition: Solomon Islands, Murmansk duo in effect, me and boba start cruising north on the east side of the map. gently caress, Minekaze at 3 KM! PANIC DUMP TORPEDOES ! HARD TO STARBOARD !   A few moments later, a friendly Phoenix almost torpedoes me. The Phoenix ate 2 of the torpedoes coming at him, they were fired by the now dead Minekaze. Note on the minimap how much reaction space/time he had   What the hell ?   Goodbye Isokaze that I never spotted and I never aimed at in any real fashion. Those torpedoes hit at something like 6-7km and were for sure spotted by the Minekaze before it died. 96,132 damage, 2167 base XP, 4 awards, extra cash + extra XP flags + 3x daily = SMOKE SHIPS GET SILVER      Oh yeah, just to gently caress with us, RNGesus made the match come down to a 1/4th health Omaha on our team vs a lone enemy DD playing hide-and-seek around the A cap. Dude almost got torpedoed twice.
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Sep 19, 2015 08:31
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Is the last hull upgrade for the Omaha actually worth it? It seems like giving up a gun and three torpedoes in the broadside is not really made up by the added AA.
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Sep 19, 2015 09:07
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ArchangeI posted:Is the last hull upgrade for the Omaha actually worth it? It seems like giving up a gun and three torpedoes in the broadside is not really made up by the added AA. You also get more range on your main guns. It's worth it.
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Sep 19, 2015 09:17
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ArchangeI posted:Is the last hull upgrade for the Omaha actually worth it? It seems like giving up a gun and three torpedoes in the broadside is not really made up by the added AA. What astroniomix said, also that AA actually can be an effective deterrent if you are screening your BB's against bombers.
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Sep 19, 2015 09:46
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Astroniomix posted:You also get more range on your main guns. It's worth it. Isn't that the fire control? That's a separate upgrade.
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Sep 19, 2015 09:49
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I wish I didn't waste my time with playing the pensacola and Independence. The IJN cruisers are so incredibly fun. I didn't really want to get rid of the Aoba, but the Myoko is pretty much Aoba 2.0. Somehow, the Aoba is my 2nd highest average XP ship, despite a terrible 44% winrate in it and Kuma is my 2nd highest average damage ship. 
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Sep 19, 2015 09:52
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Kerrow posted:I wish I didn't waste my time with playing the pensacola and Independence. The IJN cruisers are so incredibly fun. I didn't really want to get rid of the Aoba, but the Myoko is pretty much Aoba 2.0.
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Sep 19, 2015 09:55
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MREBoy posted:finishing the Omaha grind Continue the joke.
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Sep 19, 2015 10:21
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8lN727HKNk Battleships are totally defenseless against Omahas.
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Sep 19, 2015 10:43
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