Droyer posted:X has been a real cool character and has been shown to have good judgement so I don't know how they'll make X a villain without it seeming forced. well it basically went "Rui, you should do something, or i will" a couple episodes ago, so it could definitely go off into dangerous AI territory
|
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 03:04 |
|
|
# ? Jun 3, 2024 13:45 |
|
Its more like season 1 already played the angle of maybe evil AI and maybe evil millionaire twitter hitler before flipping that around. It would be sort of a retread if it showed the AI actually going VIKI on everyone.
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 03:07 |
|
Droyer posted:X has been a real cool character and has been shown to have good judgement so I don't know how they'll make X a villain without it seeming forced. Since Berg Katze and Gelsadra were villains from the first and second Gatchaman series I looked up the third series and oh dear quote:In the continuing saga, a surviving fragment of Leader X mutates into Leader Z, and recruits megalomaniac Count Egobossler to create an army to conquer the world. Srice fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Sep 20, 2015 |
# ? Sep 20, 2015 03:10 |
|
Count Egobossler
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 03:18 |
Davincie posted:Count Egobossler i'm now moving original Gatchaman a few spots up my watchlist
|
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 03:21 |
|
Gatchaman (as Battle of the Planets) was the first ever anime I saw, though I didn't know it at the time, and freaked me out when I was like four years old.
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 03:24 |
|
Count Egobossler
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 03:30 |
|
I hope he gets angry and smashes the glass at some point
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 03:31 |
|
Davincie posted:
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 03:49 |
|
Hajime died for our sins.
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 08:15 |
|
Cao Ni Ma posted:Yikes, you have a problem with way overthinking things. What do you think is the directors and the writers intent when making Gatchaman Crowds Insight? I think the show's going for rather more than just 'political participation is good, do it', even if that's presented as something nice and welcome. Do remember that the first season ended happily with Japan being converted into a more horizontal, more directly democratic society that used gamification to spur on a crowd of enthusiastic volunteers where expertise was welcome but not mandatory. This show's been looking at the dark side of that idea. The collapse of formal governmental structures has removed the checks and balances against mob rule (remember how Suguyama accepting his own powerlessness was a good thing last time around?), the game-like phone polls have trivialised important decisions, and the death of expertise has turned the country into dumb, instinctual 'apes' going for the easy, fashionable solution. The public aren't exactly praised for their role in this, but it's treated as a natural consequence of the system. Society is built in part around specialisation. People don't have time or energy to be good at and knowledgeable about everything, so micromanaging the country is something the general public just can't handle in addition to their day jobs. Look at the rise of 'let Sadra handle it', and how thinking about the polls and their consequences was framed as an annoying distraction. It's why we and Japan have democracies based on elected representatives in the first place - the idea is that you elect politics specialists to figure out policy based on broad objectives given to them by the public (via choosing between candidates and manifestos). That's all well and good, but it's thus a what-if of a what-if, even further divorced from the experience of the real world. It certainly doesn't accurately model Japanese political apathy, for a start. Japan's problem is a turbocharged version of a malaise affecting democracies across the world - a sense of powerlessness and the feeling that your vote doesn't matter. It's not that everyone's happy with the status quo, or that nobody's suffering, it's just that they feel they can't change that. In countries like, say, the UK, this comes from a combination of a regular string of corruption scandals (if politicians are all crooks, why should it matter who you vote for?), empty soundbite politics (in the 2015 election, Labour listed 'having strong values' as one of its core values), and the gradual homogenisation of a small group of unassailably large parties around a single political consensus, making it hard to tell who's worth your time to vote for (because the big parties are all pushing variants on the same message and the small parties are deemed 'unelectable' thanks to the huge barriers to entry of the electoral system). In Japan, meanwhile, the Diet has been a one-party show since the 1950s. The ruling Liberal Democratic Party has an extremely broad, vague platform, a titanic resource advantage over its rivals (what's the point for, say, a zaibatsu to lend its colossal economic power to a party that's never been elected before, especially if the other zaibatsu will stick with the LDP?), and the willingness to completely ignore the democratic process if necessary - when they finally lost power in the Nineties, they responded by forming a coalition with the ruling party and eating it. Oh, and they're just as corrupt as our politicians, too - maybe more so, thanks to how badly democratic accountability and meaningful political alternatives have been eroded. In Insight, people switch off because they have too much power - they can't handle the responsibility of directly running the country in addition to their day jobs, which leaves fickle, mindless mob rule (Gelsadra and the Kuus) in charge. In Japan, meanwhile, they switch off because they feel they have too little, leaving powerful vested interests in charge. I'm not sure that the failure of Insight to model intentional human malice, socioeconomic forces and the damage they cause, and the power of large, established institutions only harms the analogies it draws with the rise of Imperial Japan. I'm starting to wonder if it also harms its ability to analogise modern Japan, or wealthy democracies in general. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Sep 20, 2015 |
# ? Sep 20, 2015 10:54 |
|
Hajime will wake up on the third day right?
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 11:04 |
|
quote:In Insight, people switch off because they have too much power - they can't handle the responsibility of directly running the country in addition to their day jobs, which leaves fickle, mindless mob rule (Gelsadra and the Kuus) in charge. In Japan, meanwhile, they switch off because they feel they have too little, leaving powerful vested interests in charge. Was that not the whole point of CROWDS and updating the world? To empower the individual? And now what happened is the fallout from that. idk man I feel like you had an extremely specific view of what this show was supposed to be about and that doesn't really work when the show's not even finished
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 15:02 |
|
Darth Walrus posted:I'm still working through my thoughts on this episode and the direction this has all been taking, but one thing that's continuing to niggle at me is how the problems here seem to only be solvable due to the lack of lasting consequences. Now, that may seem a daft thing to say in the light of this episode and the havoc the 'atmosphere' has wreaked, but think about it for a second. We've just had two governments get dissolved without lasting economic consequences. The whole plan hinged on the 'atmosphere' calming down and moving on after Gelsadra's 'defeat' as if nothing had happened. The Kuus just vanished, leaving their unharmed victims behind. The country can move on and survive because it could have been bad, but didn't end up being a big deal. See, I like your post, but there is a very very historical parallel that happened in Japan's backyard wrt a wave of mass anti intellectualism, that this might be referring to in a soft manner, instead of the rather blatant harsh murder, and that is the Khmer Rouge regime, in both of the respects of your post. Now that was a government that wanted its society to revert back to an agrarian wave of living, and with societal collapse it is rarely a "go from Advanced High Tech to yeoman farmers on day one. Now I could see society morphing into an agrarian regime, but that part felt like more explicitly referring to that style of government.
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 15:33 |
|
Redmark posted:Was that not the whole point of CROWDS and updating the world? To empower the individual? And now what happened is the fallout from that. S1 put forth the idea of the empowerment of the populace over and alongside individuals. S2 put forth the idea of further empowering the populace, but at the sake of the individual. If they do an S3, I'm curious where they'd go (besides Hajime's boobs) with the series
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 19:15 |
|
biiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-Darth Walrus posted:See, I'm slightly reluctant to give the show mega-props for this, because as I recall - and correct me if I'm wrong here - framing it as an excess of undirected youthful exuberance is a mildly popular form of World War II apologism in Japan. The 'atmosphere' in Crowds Insight is the mob, the tyranny of the majority running rampant without checks or balances where morality is replaced by fashion. It can be steered, but never controlled, and was created by accident as a side-effect of increasing personal freedom. The psychosis of Imperial Japan, on the other hand, while anarchic on the surface, was carefully controlled and directed by an (admittedly fractious) alliance of the military, the royal family, and the politicians they had in their pockets, and there's the rub. The royal family is a literally sacred institution in Japan, and the Meiji constitution made the army its direct enforcement arm, bypassing the country's democratic institutions. Framing the rise of Japanese statism as a consequence of well-intentioned idealists and a public herd mentality allows you to sidestep a great deal of criticism of the kokutai, the core state and the ideals it embodied. -iiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr- Darth Walrus posted:I'm still working through my thoughts on this episode and the direction this has all been taking, but one thing that's continuing to niggle at me is how the problems here seem to only be solvable due to the lack of lasting consequences. Now, that may seem a daft thing to say in the light of this episode and the havoc the 'atmosphere' has wreaked, but think about it for a second. We've just had two governments get dissolved without lasting economic consequences. The whole plan hinged on the 'atmosphere' calming down and moving on after Gelsadra's 'defeat' as if nothing had happened. The Kuus just vanished, leaving their unharmed victims behind. The country can move on and survive because it could have been bad, but didn't end up being a big deal. -iiiiiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr- Darth Walrus posted:I think the show's going for rather more than just 'political participation is good, do it', even if that's presented as something nice and welcome. Do remember that the first season ended happily with Japan being converted into a more horizontal, more directly democratic society that used gamification to spur on a crowd of enthusiastic volunteers where expertise was welcome but not mandatory. This show's been looking at the dark side of that idea. -iiiiirrrrdo GO!!
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 20:41 |
|
.jpg I am glad you are back, and posting again.
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 21:00 |
|
.jpg posted:biiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr- Srice posted:.jpg I am glad you are back, and posting again.
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 21:13 |
|
NowonSA posted:Hajime died for our sins. Hajime died for our trends.
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 21:15 |
|
I'm not going to read the long posts
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 21:17 |
|
Finally got caught up on this and Yuru-jii's speech was good. His description of the Japanese getting wrapped up in the "Flow" of war actually mirrors the sentiment found in a lot of letters and diary entries from that time period. Lots of writing about feeling adrift in a war that had simply become the state of things. One diary entry in particular I'll always remember belonged to a low-ranking officer who went on and on for paragraphs complaining about his superiors and the commanders and his country and the war, only to close with "But we're at war and I'm a soldier, so I can only execute my duties while keeping my thoughts in my head." Or something to that effect. Lots of people wishing for the war to end with no conception of how that might be possible. Even a couple expressing hope for Japan's defeat. One guy was so lost in the haze of war he didn't even think "Peace" existed. Which is to say, someone who in their youth was romanced by Japanese militarism and nationalism and "Woke up" from the dream would probably talk about their experiences the way Yuru-jii does. I didn't want to say anything earlier cause I hadn't seen the episode, but yeah, sorry Walrus, your post was kinda overblown. While I don't think Gatchaman was intended to function as a historical allegory, even if it was it's clear that Tsubasa's grandfather is talking from a personal perspective, not a grand, overarching, "But you see the people in charge-" perspective. Bad Seafood fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Sep 20, 2015 |
# ? Sep 20, 2015 21:50 |
|
Redmark posted:Was that not the whole point of CROWDS and updating the world? To empower the individual? And now what happened is the fallout from that. That was part of my point, yes. Someone else was arguing that the show was simply a criticism of voter apathy in modern Japan, but GC's Japan has already moved quite a distance away from that and there's completely different dynamics going on. It's why I'd argue that as it develops further and further away from our world, it becomes less and less relevant as direct social commentary. I mean, obviously, the whole thing's allegory anyway, so you wouldn't expect a one-to-one match with modern problems (the Illuminati haven't let us know about the aliens yet, for a start ), but the fundamental issues GC is dealing with (like a citizenry paralysed by too much democratic power) are decreasingly similar to ours, and it's presenting an oddly... insulated view of how they'd affect us. Don't get me wrong, there's still some real-world relevance here. Information overload is a real problem in the information age (it's why 'burying bad news' exists as a concept), and some of the stuff the show's done with the media is super-topical (compare Rizumu discrediting the Kuus with how the European media narrative about Middle Eastern/North African refugees was almost instantly changed by one photogenically dead kid). I just don't think some of the analogies that the show and posters in this thread have drawn work that well, and I wish that a story about such broad, weighty topics and their impact on an entire country would dig a little deeper and outside a relatively narrow range of experience. Ryand-Smith posted:See, I like your post, but there is a very very historical parallel that happened in Japan's backyard wrt a wave of mass anti intellectualism, that this might be referring to in a soft manner, instead of the rather blatant harsh murder, and that is the Khmer Rouge regime, in both of the respects of your post. Now that was a government that wanted its society to revert back to an agrarian wave of living, and with societal collapse it is rarely a "go from Advanced High Tech to yeoman farmers on day one. Now I could see society morphing into an agrarian regime, but that part felt like more explicitly referring to that style of government. That's a pretty interesting thought, and it certainly seems to match a little better than the parallels with Imperial Japan that the show explicitly draws, but I'm afraid I'm not familiar enough with the time period and events to say if Insight ever specifically pointed to the Khmer Rouge as an analogy (though I guess that would fit with all our antagonists being heavy on the red, I guess). I would say, though, that that makes the absence of the economic component all the more jarring - the collapse in quality of life was a fairly huge part of Cambodia's woes. I don't think the timeframe is really an issue, either - the timeline of Insight is deliberately vague and compressed, allowing it to jump straight to the worst-case scenario without worrying if enough time has passed to make it happen. If it wanted to show society collapsing to an agrarian state, it'd do it - instead, everyone seems to become increasingly coddled and insulated by technology.
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 22:02 |
|
.jpg posted:biiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr- I'm glad you're still alive.
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 22:05 |
|
Bad Seafood posted:Finally got caught up on this and Yuru-jii's speech was good. His description of the Japanese getting wrapped up in the "Flow" of war actually mirrors the sentiment found in a lot of letters and diary entries from that time period. Lots of writing about feeling adrift in a war that had simply become the state of things. One diary entry in particular I'll always remember belonged to a low-ranking officer who went on and on for paragraphs complaining about his superiors and the commanders and his country and the war, only to close with "But we're at war and I'm a soldier, so I can only execute my duties while keeping my thoughts in my head." Or something to that effect. Lots of people wishing for the war to end with no conception of how that might be possible. Even a couple expressing hope for Japan's defeat. One guy was so lost in the haze of war he didn't even think "Peace" existed. I guess my issue with this is that while it's his personal experience, it's given broader significance as the way the country is actually run in the show. I think it's fair to go 'but you see the people in charge' when this is a story about the people in charge. It is also used as a piece of apologism to divert away from the very important people who were deliberately responsible for the war and the tyranny of Showa Japan, which is why I was a bit uneasy about some of the folks in the thread going on about how it was great for a Japanese show to call out Japan for its past misdeeds.
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 22:07 |
|
Your basing your arguments around a flawed starting point. This show isnt about people in charge, its about people period.
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 22:41 |
|
Goddamit Katze stop breaking the fourth wall.
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 22:53 |
|
Conot posted:Goddamit Katze stop breaking the fourth wall. Katze is the best I don't want him to ever stop.
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 22:56 |
|
Jou, please don't smoke in gatchaspace. It'll be ok Utsusu
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 23:03 |
|
Darth Walrus posted:I guess my issue with this is that while it's his personal experience, it's given broader significance as the way the country is actually run in the show. I think it's fair to go 'but you see the people in charge' when this is a story about the people in charge. It is also used as a piece of apologism to divert away from the very important people who were deliberately responsible for the war and the tyranny of Showa Japan, which is why I was a bit uneasy about some of the folks in the thread going on about how it was great for a Japanese show to call out Japan for its past misdeeds.
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 23:10 |
|
reading two loving wikipedia articles and half a book doesn't make you an expert on japaense history and culture and i think there are bigger forms of japanese compensation for the war to demand than 'this show could kind of be taken as an incredibly mild apology or excuse for the war, if you have a fail brain made of dead cockroaches, like I do'
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 23:11 |
|
Endorph posted:stfu dude there's super blatantly no scenario where a japanese show could engage with ww2 in a way you'd be satisfied with, unless it was just a giant baby labelled 'japan' crying and shtiting itself while a powerful white man jacked off in the distance. like yeah ww2 japan sucked, that doesn't mean every single show that ever mentions ww2 needs to explain how and why japan sucked. ww2 was brought up because crowds has a point to make relating to it, not because crowds is about ww2. Endorph posted:reading two loving wikipedia articles and half a book doesn't make you an expert on japaense history and culture and i think there are bigger forms of japanese compensation for the war to demand than 'this show could kind of be taken as an incredibly mild apology or excuse for the war, if you have a fail brain made of dead cockroaches, like I do'
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 23:16 |
|
you were uneasy about other people in the thread praising the show because you're a loving racist who's way too convinced of his own intelligence, and everything you see has to be something you can see for what it REALLY is, because clearly you are the only person on the internet - in the loving world - who can divine the hosed up realities of the world. It's so blatant that you don't actually care about the poo poo you're spewing, either. If you were legitimately going 'I found this kind of weird' or even 'I read it like this' that would be one thing, but it isn't about crowds, WW2 japan, or anything. It's about proving how smart you are on loving ADTRW. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 23:17 |
|
gently caress off, walrus.
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 23:17 |
|
anyway, hajime has big tits. :grenecube:
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 23:17 |
|
I liked the part of the episode where it was an episode of Gatchaman Crowds Insight. Which Gatchaman design is the coolest (after OD's of course)? I have to go with Sugane's, personally.
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 23:18 |
|
Endorph posted:anyway, hajime has big tits. :grenecube:
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 23:21 |
|
chumbler posted:Which Gatchaman design is the coolest (after OD's of course)? hotpants hajime
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 23:21 |
|
chumbler posted:Which Gatchaman design is the coolest (after OD's of course)? I have to go with Sugane's, personally.
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 23:23 |
|
I like Rui's and teleporting poo poo around is cool
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 23:24 |
|
|
# ? Jun 3, 2024 13:45 |
|
Rui's Gatcha is my favorite.
|
# ? Sep 20, 2015 23:27 |