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PaleIrishGuy posted:I'll bite. Without googling, please pick the Somali name from the following list of Ethopians (just so we know that this discrimination is that easy): When you said, quote:The neighborhood I live in near Chicago is really mixed race (and nationality), and gently caress me if I could even begin to tell you at a glance whether one white guy is Irish or Polish, if one black woman is descended from Niger or is straight over from Botswana, or the tan guy walking down the block had parents from Mexico, Cuba, or Puerto Rico. And the first thing that hit me was 'Irish or Polish'. The Polish were discriminated against in the US and it was based on their names. Now, the Ethiopians are mainly Christian while the Somalis are mostly Islamic, so besides names you might be able to use other cues like are they carrying a cross around their neck or not. In any case, assuming that there's JUST NO WAY you can tell a Finnish Somali from a Finnish Ethiopian, surely even you can admit that your original argument: quote:So what gift of racism is it that Finns apparently have that we in the US lack that lets them distinguish at a glance a family from Ethiopia or Somalia? Was too simplistic?
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Sep 24, 2015 00:13
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:Because me and you fundamentally disagree about how to approach a problem like this from a very high level. I say solve, or at least put a plan in place to solve these problems before we start hulling in people. You (I think) are of the opinion that as a humanitarian crisis, we owe it to them to find them a home, and then solve the problems later. I do think you argue in good faith though so instead of us spinning our wheels about how to even approach step one, I just let it be. I don't necessarily think you are definitively wrong, I just disagree with the approach. A fair reply - I am arguing in good faith, although I think my position has been somewhat misrepresented by the replies I've found myself obliged to make in this thread. My approach is misrepresented mostly because I never laid it out - it's multi-path and would be glossed over during the bullshit arguments that have been coming. As for the your suggestion, I would agree that solving the cause rather than the symptom is absolutely the fundamentally smart choice. My divergence is that the symptom has been ignored for so long that now addressing the cause won't solve the problem. The issue of the Syrian civil war is that it has been a proxy war for years now and the pusillanimous lack of ground forces from the two factions (America/Britain vs. Iran/Russia) has led to a destabilisation that Daesh has multiplied. Basically we cannot solve the Syrian crisis right now because of gently caress-ups made over the past few years.
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Sep 24, 2015 00:41
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Starshark posted:When you said, It was simplistic. I will admit that. It was so because the tune of 'cause they're brown' was being played in D&D again, and if one group of brown people has integrated or is more accepted than another, then it's probably a greater matter than just 'brown people' again. If you want to argue that the difference may be due to dominant regional faiths between the two regions, then that is fine. That is a fantastic argument to advance and may well be a part of it. That said, if you're going to advance that faith is the discriminatory factor here, then drop the 'racism' line, unless you are also prepared to argue that being Islamic is now a race. So again we are back to why is one group of people being accepted in Finland when another group from a neighboring nation isn't a racist matter?
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Sep 24, 2015 00:41
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Being fair, it's ridiculous to categorise African people by 'nationality' since those are colonial constructs. It's more useful to consider geographical regions considering someone living on the arbitrary border of Kenya is unlikely to be of the same heritage and (state) education as someone in Nairobi. To be honest this applies to all nations, but many countries in Africa suffer from this issue to a major extent. Sadly a lot of tribal tensions still remain. But this is unrelated to the refugee crisis and I only know the direct results on my own family, so I won't go any further.
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Sep 24, 2015 00:48
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Tesseraction posted:Being fair, it's ridiculous to categorise African people by 'nationality' since those are colonial constructs. It's more useful to consider geographical regions considering someone living on the arbitrary border of Kenya is unlikely to be of the same heritage and (state) education as someone in Nairobi. It's actually not any more ridiculous than characterizing people by race, and if Finns have an opinion of "Somalis", it's just as real as American opinions about "Mexicans".
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Sep 24, 2015 00:50
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Agreed. These distinctions are useful only in an 'us vs. them' context.
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Sep 24, 2015 00:52
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Tesseraction posted:Agreed. These distinctions are useful only in an 'us vs. them' context. Absolutely agreed that distinctions based on region or color are silly and not useful in most contexts.
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Sep 24, 2015 02:01
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This whole discussion has been extremely weird. It shouldn't surprise anyone that self-selecting groups of people have differing effects on economy. One group of people are coming to country to work through visas are selected by the host meaning they most likely have jobs lined up and applicable education etc. And other group comes in as refugees with little to no applicable education or job prospects in host country. How can it be surprising that the group that can answer to demands of work market fares and integrates much better than the group that can not? Add to this situation economy in the shitter and 400 000 unemployed people that are head and shoulders above the refugees because they at the minimum know the language, you can see that the situation for the refugees regarding economic integration isn't getting better for a long while. Like of course there's racism and discrimination in Finland and it affects both Kenyans and Somalis. It's just that despite that you see vastly differing outcomes in integration and economical effect from these groups of people meaning that there are other, more important, factors at play. But it seems that anglo (?) left-liberals seem to see everything through racial lense and see racism as the alpha and omega to interpreting all societal problems. So you get these bizarre conjectures how Finns have finely tuned race radars they use to differentiate Somalis from Kenyans that actually explains the differences in integration. Obvious explanation is discarded so readily it feels like I'm missing some kind of surreal joke here.
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Sep 24, 2015 09:14
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Glah posted:Obvious explanation is discarded so readily it feels like I'm missing some kind of surreal joke here. People like effetronica only have one tool in their argumentative toolbox, and you know what they say about dealing with problems when you only have a hammer...
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Sep 24, 2015 09:24
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Having worked in Finland for a while and aside of that in most other Scandinavian countries, I can honestly say Finnish is the most bizarre , fairy tale, "is he actually talking to me or just laughing in my face" sounding language I have ever come in contact with. I'm fluent in Dutch, English and French, have basic German and Russian knowledge, but it would take me years upon years of intensive day by day courses to even get to grasps with the basics of Finnish. I wouldn't often say this but I honestly believe having to speak Finnish is a real and serious problem for integrating immigrants that will cause perfectly fine and competent candidates to remain unemployed for years upon years. Perhaps adding English as a second official language would be worth thinking over? This problem wont solve itself and immigrants are going to come, like it or not.
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Sep 24, 2015 09:30
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Mikojan posted:Having worked in Finland for a while and aside of that in most other Scandinavian countries, I can honestly say Finnish is the most bizarre , fairy tale, "is he actually talking to me or just laughing in my face" sounding language I have ever come in contact with. I'm fluent in Dutch, English and French, have basic German and Russian knowledge, but it would take me years upon years of intensive day by day courses to even get to grasps with the basics of Finnish.  English as second language would make sense but Swedish People Party holds absurd amounts of political power compared to their actual size and will torpedo all proposals that affect swedish's position as second official language.
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Sep 24, 2015 09:44
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How common is it for Finnish speakers to be decent at Swedish? Would it be a suitable foreign-workers language?
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Sep 24, 2015 09:54
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Puistokemisti posted:
That is a really neat info-graphic, thanks for that! I guess having immigrants learn Swedish instead then would alleviate the problem a bit. However, judging from my time there, the Finnish-Swedish relationship isn't exactly on best friend basis, which is why I thought having an unbiased outside language would be the more diplomatic option. Mikojan fucked around with this message at 10:00 on Sep 24, 2015 |
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Sep 24, 2015 09:57
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Mikojan posted:That is a really neat info-graphic, thanks for that! Not true, we actually don't mind Finnish or Finnish people at all! E: That Finnish is inherently more difficult to learn than other languages is a bizarre assertion. Awkward and ugly, perhaps. Difficult? Not so much. Cake Smashing Boob fucked around with this message at 10:45 on Sep 24, 2015 |
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Sep 24, 2015 10:07
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Tesseraction posted:How common is it for Finnish speakers to be decent at Swedish? Would it be a suitable foreign-workers language? Swedish is mandatory on every school level from primary school to university. In theory most finns should be able to speak swedish. In practice however the entire system has been rigged to make sure everyone passes no matter their actual ability to speak swedish. Some students do actually learn to speak fluent swedish, but many of them lose that skill over the years because swedish is very rarely used in Finland. Swedish may help foreigners with some government services but you still won't be able to talk with most of the locals
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Sep 24, 2015 10:15
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Puistokemisti posted:
5.3% of the country speaks Swedish as their first language. Even ignoring history, which I don't think is wise, English wouldn't be close to comparable. The amount of people with neither of the official languages as their first language is about the same if not slightly larger Tesseraction posted:How common is it for Finnish speakers to be decent at Swedish? Would it be a suitable foreign-workers language? I have no statistics for the language skills but while everyone learns the other language (Swedish/Finnish) at school, unless you're regularily in touch with the abovementioned 5.3%, I'd say "not very". In the bi-lingual area it makes sense, though. Swedish-speaking Osthrobothnia manages to handle their comparably large number of immigrants quite well apparently, but I'm not sure if that's more because of language, employment opportunities or a statistical outlier due to small sample. Mikojan posted:the Finnish-Swedish relationship isn't exactly on best friend basis 1995 NEVER FORGET Looks can deceive. It's very friendly rivalry, really. Taking it seriously is almost as rare as meeting a manly Swede.
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Sep 24, 2015 10:21
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Griffen posted:This is entirely in addition to the question of why is it a country's job to look after the citizens of another country before their own? Should you tell the 400,000 unemployed Finns and their European cohorts "eat poo poo son, we know this is your home and all, and that you need help, but don't you get it?! There's random strangers we need to help before you!" But good news, employment isn't a zero-sum game where workers fight over a fixed amount of jobs. Immigration has basically little to no impact on the employment of natives, or even a postiive impact. "They took er jerbs" is a racist, disproven myth. Economies gain from immigration, they don't lose.
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Sep 24, 2015 10:35
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This thread has become a Finnish colony.
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Sep 24, 2015 10:40
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The only thing they could successfully invade.
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Sep 24, 2015 10:41
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Puistokemisti posted:
A modest proposal: since Finnish and Hungarian are distantly related we should emigrate all Hungarians into Finland or vice versa and give the now-empty country to the refugees. I haven't yet decided which option sounds more appealing, forcing the refugees to live in the bleak wastelands of Finland would be cruel so I'm leaning towards emptying out Hungary.
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Sep 24, 2015 11:24
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Puistokemisti posted:
The Swedish People's Party holds approximately zero political power, but is useful to invoke as some kind of political boogeyman so that you can ignore the fact that keeping swedish as second official language is the overwhelming majority consensus among our political parties. Much like the chump change that housing refugees would cost is a useful political boogeyman to trot out to cover the fact that we in Finland have hosed our own economy and are about to gently caress it even more under the glorious leadership of the same people that are the most keen on blaming the foreign hordes for our country's woes. Griffen posted:Should you tell the 400,000 unemployed Finns and their European cohorts "eat poo poo son, we know this is your home and all, and that you need help, but don't you get it?! There's random strangers we need to help before you!" Funnily enough the current government of Finland is in fact about to gently caress the poor and unemployed. Funnily enough, the current crop of rightwing governments in Europe are also busy loving the poor and unemployed, and in many cases were doing so long before the current refugee crisis started. It's almost like the problem is with bad economic policy and not swarthy people crossing the med.
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Sep 24, 2015 11:47
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SaltyJesus posted:A modest proposal: since Finnish and Hungarian are distantly related we should emigrate all Hungarians into Finland or vice versa and give the now-empty country to the refugees. We could take all the ethnic Estonians and repopulate the countryside with them. This would leave a small country for the refugees/Russians.
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Sep 24, 2015 11:50
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Glah posted:But it seems that anglo (?) left-liberals seem to see everything through racial lense and see racism as the alpha and omega to interpreting all societal problems. So you get these bizarre conjectures how Finns have finely tuned race radars they use to differentiate Somalis from Kenyans that actually explains the differences in integration. Obvious explanation is discarded so readily it feels like I'm missing some kind of surreal joke here. The explanation that sounds most likely to me is that race (and religion, when it comes to Muslims) occupies the minds of some posters in this thread to such an extent they simply cannot conceive other people are not that interested, or that the world outside of their parents basement (ok, cruel joke, I will stop) does not spin around racial power structure theories. Hence, their explanation to everything is either race or in the case of Muslims, religion. It is quite fascinating! LOL! Somalis are very badly employed just about everywhere in Europe -> it must be racism against Africans -> but many other African nationalities are as well, or even better employed than locals -> then it must be that employers target Somalians because of their religion -> Some Muslim groups do just fine, it's just that Somalis often arrive as illiterate nomads from a clan culture, which doesn't really prepare them for a service and information industry Finland has -> then it must be Finns sabotage Somali education in Finland, because of racism or something -> and so forth. For example most Finns are not very religious, don't care if others are unless they make a number of it, and those who live in a city like Helsinki don't give a drat about your skin melanin (people in small bönde places do, no argument with that). Not many years ago I sat in an office where most people were foreigners from the Middle-East to Far East and they blended into the surroundings here just fine, no hitler-attack anti-islam death squads hounded them and they faced no routine racism while going about their lives. Some people in this thread appear to insinuate employers racismfy Muslims, which explains why your average Nepalese or Nigerians is doing fine but the Somali is not. I find this very, very unlikely. Like I said most Finns are more or less atheists who couldn't give a drat about *your* faith unless you want to wear a full burka or need special treatment because of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, who demands a sacrifice of burning meatballs and tomato sauce every 45 minutes (things just about no one does). We had this really devout Ahmadiyya Muslim dude who felt guilty he had to take a 30 minute trip to the closest Mosque for his midday prayers so I organized a praying space for him in our hardware storage room... anyway having worked with several employers and having been in the chair of the person conducting the interviews myself, I can assure everyone, Finnish employers by and large don't really care about the personal beliefs of an individual but rather their qualifications. Well, right now probably mostly your salary requirements, because for every open bakery and store clerk position, there are something like 300 applicants in Finland, half of them with a higher education and 10 years of work experience. Hooray our economy! CSM posted:It's funny how people suddenly pretend to care about Europe's poor and unemployed when the subject of immigration and refugees comes up. Pretend to care? What do you mean? Anyway, this far I haven't seen anyone make the argument asylum seekers are taking the "jerb" from anyone. The problem is rather that people are worried there are no jobs for them to be had instead. Economies do not automatically gain from immigration. In Finland, the average Somalian or Iraqi is a net loss of 13 000€ a year, while a German immigrant is a net gain of 2000€. I juyst disproven ure myth. edit: LOL LINK FIX'D Ligur fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Sep 24, 2015 |
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Sep 24, 2015 11:54
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Page 47 suggests that Human Development Index is a crucial factor as well as gender of the person (it seems women really struggle from the lower-developed countries). What page does it mention the net cost benefit/liability by nationality?
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Sep 24, 2015 12:03
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Tesseraction posted:Page 47 suggests that Human Development Index is a crucial factor as well as gender of the person (it seems women really struggle from the lower-developed countries). Check out page 88 for net cost/gain per nationality. You don't need to be fluent in Finnish to view it. Page 90 tells us that the graph ends at about 13 000€/year in the negative. edit: also, uhhm, what? When I open the document, page 47 is about basic health care...
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Sep 24, 2015 12:11
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Ligur posted:Pretend to care? What do you mean? Ligur posted:Check out page 88 for net cost/gain per nationality. You don't need to be fluent in Finnish to view it. Page 90 tells us that the graph ends at about 13 000€/year in the negative. Incidentlally page 88 is where appendix 1 starts, i.e. the one listing countries by continent. So you've linked to the wrong document, ya dumbo.
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Sep 24, 2015 12:22
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You sure you posted the right document? One your link took me to is: "Ulkomaalaistaustainen väestö 2013 Befolkning med utländsk bakgrund Population with foreign background"
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Sep 24, 2015 12:23
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Ooops  Link fixed!
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Sep 24, 2015 12:25
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Still, the other document you linked provides a little context on the situation - the two populations are from countries with medium/low development indices. It would make sense that Iraq, for instance, having just suffered the Iran-Iraq war and the First Gulf War was probably not a great place to have had an education, and the civil unrest in Somalia is another example. This isn't to say that Somalians and Iraqs are stupid or workshy, but that they have been mismanaged as human resources. The cynic in me suggests that a nationalist or populist government allows such a thing to happen to say "look, these people are awful! They're why our economy's in the shitter!" while they gut state assets and clamp down on workers' rights.
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Sep 24, 2015 12:33
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Glah posted:But it seems that anglo (?) left-liberals seem to see everything through racial lense and see racism as the alpha and omega to interpreting all societal problems. it's this
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Sep 24, 2015 12:42
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Tesseraction posted:Still, the other document you linked provides a little context on the situation - the two populations are from countries with medium/low development indices. It would make sense that Iraq, for instance, having just suffered the Iran-Iraq war and the First Gulf War was probably not a great place to have had an education, and the civil unrest in Somalia is another example. If the situation is that there is a claim that Finland benefits from Iraqi and Somali immigration (and it is), the document debunks that. The Finnish Red Cross tells us that an asylum seeker is a net cost of about 13k€/year. It isn't funny that Iraqis and Somalis continue to be a similar net cost even after they have received a residence permit. quote:This isn't to say that Somalians and Iraqs are stupid or workshy, but that they have been mismanaged as human resources. The cynic in me suggests that a nationalist or populist government allows such a thing to happen to say "look, these people are awful! They're why our economy's in the shitter!" while they gut state assets and clamp down on workers' rights. It certainly isn't, but it might there is a situation where the demand in Finland, and what Iraqis and Somalis can offer, just do not meet. As for the cynic in you, he wears a tinfoil hat in this instance. Finland has not had a nationalist or a populist government for more than a few months, the previous governments that watched the situation develop were center-left or right-center-left-liberal-conservative (which probably explains why they were more or less paralyzed). 
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Sep 24, 2015 12:43
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It's not tinfoil hat to think that governments find scapegoats convenient, neither did I specifically said they deliberately threw darts at a board and picked out Iraq and Somalia as the nationals to poo poo on. My point is that even after it came to light that those groups are a financial liability, it is easier to leave them that way and blame society's ills on them than it is to address the fundamental problems (of education, training and combating a self-reinforcing negative stereotype of 'oh no, an Iraqi, these guys have an awful record with employment' that may not be legal but nevertheless exists - for a parallel look at the difficulty of homeless people in getting jobs). My government does it all the time and has since time immemorial. If you think this is tinfoil hat then... well keep on dreamin' brother.
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Sep 24, 2015 12:53
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So if the fact that Iraqis and Somalis don't integrate very well in the Nordic countries isn't because of racism, it's a government plot instead. Yep. Seems reasonable  Anyway, nobody, especially the government is blaming Iraqis or Somalis for Finland's lamentable economic situation, or other problems for that matter. It very well might be our previous governments simply had no idea what to do or how to fix the integration failures of certain immigrant groups, and why should they have? Immigrants have the responsibility to integrate. No outside force can come and smite you with a mighty order, harken unto thee, upon arriving thou shalt speak Finnish, finish school and actively look for employment in two years of time, or else. Well actually USA does something like that and does it very well. But it can't be done in an European welfare state.
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Sep 24, 2015 13:07
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Ligur posted:So if the fact that Iraqis and Somalis don't integrate very well in the Nordic countries isn't because of racism, it's a government plot instead. It can be both! quote:Anyway, nobody, especially the government is blaming Iraqis or Somalis for Finland's lamentable economic situation, or other problems for that matter. It very well might be our previous governments simply had no idea what to do or how to fix the integration failures of certain immigrant groups, and why should they have? Immigrants have the responsibility to integrate. No outside force can come and smite you with a mighty order, harken unto thee, upon arriving thou shalt speak Finnish, finish school and actively look for employment in two years of time, or else. The USA has a lot of bi-lingual education and in fact one of the most well integrated groups (Cubans) had about as much catering to as you can do for an ethnic minority. You should look up exactly how they integrated.
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Sep 24, 2015 13:09
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Europeans suck it integrating anything that doesn't do it automatically left to its own devices.
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Sep 24, 2015 13:15
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Ligur posted:Europeans suck it integrating anything that doesn't do it automatically left to its own devices. Only people who really do that are children. Most countries where people integrate well have massive advantages (etc. U.S.) or provide massive state support for integration (etc. Singapore). Ligur posted:
Completely depends on what group and where. U.S. has had problems with integration that Europe never had, if you know what I mean. And I don't think any group in Europe faces as horrible levels of institutionalized racism as African Americans today, and they and the native Americans are the only groups who didn't immigrate to poo poo. United States also has English which practically everyone knows (even the Somalis in Finland) to semi-beginner level at the least, and far far far far far easier paths to start your own business. It's not as simple as U.S. = good at integrating Europe = bad at integrating. Europe is worse in some aspects, U.S. in others. For example, we need to have mandatory and monitored linguistic education enforced by the state for someone who isn't even literate and for many literate people too to truly pick up our crazy moonspeak because only like six million people in the whole world speak it. Estonians are the only foreigners who might speak it before moving here. And United States in turn needs to stop executing unarmed black people on the street holy poo poo DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Sep 24, 2015 |
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Sep 24, 2015 13:24
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DarkCrawler posted:And I don't think any group in Europe faces as horrible levels of institutionalized racism as African Americans today Kinda hard to determine since european nations tend not to track statistics based on race. I remember in France though, they did a report by religion and Muslims are vastly disproportionate in terms of the people imprisoned versus the general population.
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Sep 24, 2015 13:26
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computer parts posted:It can be both! A bit irrelevant though as the US only treated Cuban refugees well as a way of scoring propaganda points against the Castro regime. The US (and most states) are pretty good at accepting and integrating refugees when there's some kind of ideological battle being waged against the country of origin. Notice the percentage of US asylum seekers that currently come from Russia and China. The problem is everyone, the US included, loses interest in refugees when they come from irrelevant countries that no one particularly cares to flick the nose of.
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Sep 24, 2015 13:26
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lmaoboy1998 posted:A bit irrelevant though as the US only treated Cuban refugees well as a way of scoring propaganda points against the Castro regime. The US (and most states) are pretty good at accepting and integrating refugees when there's some kind of ideological battle being waged against the country of origin. Notice the percentage of US asylum seekers that currently come from Russia and China. It's actually quite relevant because that system of schooling became the standard in lots of bilingual education in the US. Even if you just focus on Mexicans, most of them still go to primarily English speaking within a decade or so (starting as kids). It's not anywhere near the issues Europe has.
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Sep 24, 2015 13:27
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computer parts posted:Kinda hard to determine since european nations tend not to track statistics based on race. I didn't really think of France for some reason, you're right. They have a pretty equivalent history with Muslims (well, except when most of them fought and won an independence war and left with half of the state's territory), and the demographics are similar in size. Just switch the inner city/suburbs phenomenon (in Europe inner cities are wealthy and white, suburbs poor and still mostly white but with lot more other colors mixed in).
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Sep 24, 2015 13:38
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