|
Saudi Arabia is much like China in that everybody who is not a politician or corporate leader agrees that they are awful regimes, but economically they are far too important to dismiss.
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 16:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 23:36 |
|
|
WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Where's anti Saudi BDS? If you think that a BDS campaign against SA is a good idea, get to work. Start organizing it. But don't expect pro-Palestinian organizers to do that for you any more than you should expect the "Free Tibet" people to do it for you. I see two big problems though(of course if you can argue convincingly, I'm willing to change my mind): 1) as mentioned, SA's major export is crude oil and it's very difficult to boycott oil based on provenance: you don't get to choose between a '13 Venezuela and a '14 Norway when you fill up your tank at the Exxon station. Crude petroleum is mixed with petroleum of different sources and refined together. And 2) To the best of my knowledge, the victims of the SA regime have not called for a boycott like Palestinian civil society has. I'm not aware of any major women's right groups or Shia advocacy groups based in Saudia Arabia that have called for a boycott. It seems to me that to initiate a boycott against the wishes of the group the boycott is supposed to protect is the height of "white savior syndrome." quote:This is an incoherent response. Saudi Arabia reviled and rejected entirely by the West? You can't actually believe that, can you? Of course. What planet are you living on? US politicians might say some nice words when a Saudi diplomat visits and you often hear how they're a "valued partner in our war on Terror" or somesuch but nobody likes the Saudis. They are too important to piss off, but no American politician would talk about SA the way they talk about Israel. If you say "SA is a brutal, racist dictatorship that should be replaced" anywhere in the West, you're unlikely to meet any objections beyond "well, I'm afraid the government that replaces the House of Saud might be even worse." quote:The whole "those evil Zionists are trying to pretend they're like us civilized Europeans!" has always struck me as more anti-Arab(and obliquely white supremacist) than antisemitic. Except that Israel sees itself as a white man's country, as part of the West. And the whole Vienna Gates, "we're beating back the savage Muslims so Europe doesn't have to" rhetoric has been part of the Israel PR machine for a while.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 17:17
|
|
|
FreshlyShaven posted:I'm not aware of any major women's right groups or Shia advocacy groups based in Saudia Arabia that have called for a boycott. It seems to me that to initiate a boycott against the wishes of the group the boycott is supposed to protect is the height of "white savior syndrome."  Or it's taking a stand against oppression? People certainly don't seem to care about the wishes of the oppressed group when they're calling for burqa bans, so why is it suddenly not okay to take any action without the express request of the oppressed group in this thread? Do I have to buy from groups I consider oppressive because their victims have not requested that I stop?
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 17:59
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:Rarely you do see commentators in AJE and the such who let slip something like "Israel bad sure but jfc Assad can't you take a queue from them and at least pretend the wholesale butchery of civilians is not your primary military objective?". hmm yes, a vast anti-israel conspiracy, or maybe everyone doesn't have horrifyingly acute ADD?
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 18:22
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:hmm yes, a vast anti-israel conspiracy, or maybe everyone doesn't have horrifyingly acute ADD? Wow what a zinger. I'm sure every single pro-palestinian detractor also sings Israel's praises when they speak about Assad, after all their world views are very nuanced it's not like they've been brainwashed to hate Israel for the past 68 years by the dictators who oppress them on a daily basis. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKuhoXGEC-E I can't find the rest of the segment but the co-comentator blasts that guy for being offensive by saying that Israel isn't worse than Assad... accute ADD blah blah whatever. Why do I even respond to you you always talk to me like an rear end in a top hat.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 18:29
|
|
|
You both talk like assholes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 18:35
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:
Do people in this thread universally support burqa bans? I sure don't. It seems like a pretty poster child example of white savioring women who want to wear burqas from themselves.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 18:36
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:
If you decide to take a stand in the name of group X but group X tells you "no please we don't want you to get involved" and you get involved anyway, yeah I would consider that patronizing. As would many people. By all means, support these activists but take your direction from them, not your own ego. The Palestinian civil community has come together and issued an international call for boycott; the Shia of SA or Bahrain or the Tibetans or whatever have not and in some cases, their representatives have argued forcefully AGAINST a boycott. quote:People certainly don't seem to care about the wishes of the oppressed group when they're calling for burqa bans, so why is it suddenly not okay to take any action without the express request of the oppressed group in this thread? I don't know what you're talking about here. Burqa bans are hosed up and exhibit A for "white man savior syndrome." Telling women how to dress in the name of liberating them is pretty insulting which is why so many Muslim feminists are against such bans. And they usually come from Islamophobic right-wingers. quote:Do I have to buy from groups I consider oppressive because their victims have not requested that I stop? No, you don't have to buy anything from anyone. If you'd rather not purchase goods or travel to a place with a dicey human rights record, good. I myself for instance will not travel to the DR or to Myanmar until they end their persecution of Dominicans of Haitian descent and the Rohingya respectively. But there's a difference between "I would rather not purchase something from a state whose policies I abhor" and "I am going to organize a boycott in the name of group X despite group X's wishes." When I choose not to go to DR, I am not part of an organized, collective action; I am merely an individual making free choices. Edit: quote:I'm sure every single pro-palestinian detractor also sings Israel's praises when they speak about Assad, after all their world views are very nuanced it's not like they've been brainwashed to hate Israel for the past 68 years by the dictators who oppress them on a daily basis. I can't watch the video right now, but on the summary it says explicitly that the guest attempted to justify and even praise Israel's unprovoked mass murder of Gazan civilians and repeated debunked myths about Hezbollah hiding rockets in all of the destroyed houses(in fact, Israel destroyed houses not because there were fighters or weapons in them but as part of its collective punishment policy know as the Dahiya doctrine; the purpose was to make civilians suffer as retaliation for their political support of Hezbollah.) I can certainly see why people would be furious at someone who attempted to justify the deliberate murder and collective punishment of civilians on account of their race. FreshlyShaven fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Sep 24, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 20:22
|
|
|
FreshlyShaven posted:To the best of my knowledge, the victims of the SA regime have not called for a boycott like Palestinian civil society has. I'm not aware of any major women's right groups or Shia advocacy groups based in Saudia Arabia that have called for a boycott. I agree that to the best of your knowledge that women and LGBT people in Saudi Arabia are not struggling for their basic human rights, which seems a pretty dismal indictment of your general ignorance of and indifference to to oppression of Arab peoples that can't be pinned on Israelis. But to be fair, you're far from alone in that. I also recognize that you think economically pressuring Saudi Arabia could be hard so we shouldn't bother. quote:Except that Israel sees itself as a white man's country, as part of the West. Gonna point out you're kind of proving my point for me. "Those uppity Israelis, how dare they suggest they're civilized white Westerners like us!" is exactly the creepy anti-Zionist meme I'm talking about. And I won't bother objecting to the disturbing way in which you and various other anti-Zionists absolutely insist on defining the ethnic identity of Jews for them, to hell with what they themselves think. FreshlyShaven posted:the Shia of SA or Bahrain or the Tibetans or whatever have not and in some cases, their representatives have argued forcefully AGAINST a boycott. Hmm. I wonder why Tibetans have failed to create a broad and public campaign agitating for boycotts against China. Must be because they're so happy with the way things are going in Lhasa, there's no other explanation for the lack of highly visible mass public protests against Chinese rule, right?  Also, I guess North Koreans just love Kim Jong Un. I mean, when's the last time you saw a big crowd of North Koreans demonstrating against their government, right?
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2015 23:53
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:Wow what a zinger. People who support Palestinians = brainwashed to hate Israel. Nice, tell us how you really feel. I also like how you get yourself all worked up and, even if you did find the video you're looking for, your evidence of the above would be one person who supports Israeli military tactics, and one who disagrees. Also I'm sorry you find my tone rude. A hallmark of Zionist I/P talking points is to bog down the conversation with discussion of minutiae and the ever-present "can't complain about X until you fix Y and Z"; it's difficult to take said arguments seriously.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2015 01:59
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:The 2022 WC will be in Qatar. People to this day consider Hezbollah a brave anti-occupation force when they happily killed thousands of Lebanese civilians in the 80s and Syrians today, nevermind being nationalist shitheads who embody the spirit of 1984. They're the literal definition of fascism.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2015 03:16
|
|
|
DrProsek posted:Do people in this thread universally support burqa bans? I sure don't. It seems like a pretty poster child example of white savioring women who want to wear burqas from themselves. It doesn't come up in this thread much, since, y'know, this is the Israel thread. But if the Refugees thread and the Islamic Extremism thread are any indication, it's more about eradicating aspects of Islamic culture that the person doesn't like.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2015 05:12
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:People who support Palestinians = brainwashed to hate Israel. Nice, tell us how you really feel. I mean, English is not my first language what is your excuse? Perhaps you should watch the video, read my posts, and understand what you're saying before you're wasting my time with these inane posts that serve no purpose other than trying to demonstrate what a good anti-zionist you are? Nothing you, or FreshleyShaven, said pertains to the point I was making. I am sorry you think a statement going "Assad, you're making loving Israel look good" is considered defending genocide or whatever it is your brains make out of it, it is clear that you two are demonstrating the exact phenomena I'm talking about, people who get violently ill whenever the word "Israel" is followed by any combination of words that isn't "is the worst thing since hitler". But no, this is just brave anti-zionism, not the result of any internalized propaganda or anything. And the lovely thing is that you try to accuse me of being anti-palestinian, weak poo poo, I'll tell you what, not every pro-palestinian has been brain washed, but you certainly were.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2015 12:43
|
|
The Insect Court posted:I agree that to the best of your knowledge that women and LGBT people in Saudi Arabia are not struggling for their basic human rights, which seems a pretty dismal indictment of your general ignorance of and indifference to to oppression of Arab peoples that can't be pinned on Israelis. But to be fair, you're far from alone in that. Can you answer my question above, or are you going to smirk about people being ignorant about internal Saudi politics while pretending that the loving Tibetan diaspora doesn't exist until a merciful G-d gives you carpal tunnel syndrome so that you might annoy no more?
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2015 13:50
|
|
|
quote:I agree that to the best of your knowledge that women and LGBT people in Saudi Arabia are not struggling for their basic human rights, which seems a pretty dismal indictment of your general ignorance of and indifference to to oppression of Arab peoples that can't be pinned on Israelis. That's some prime strawman right there. I mean, why did you even post something that stupid? quote:I also recognize that you think economically pressuring Saudi Arabia could be hard so we shouldn't bother. I don't see you organizing a boycott either. If you support a boycott, then get to work. If you make a good case and secure the support of the groups you're ostensibly protecting, I'll join you. But of course you don't give a poo poo about gays or women or Shia in Saudi Arabia except insofar as they serve as a justification for Israeli human rights abuses. quote:"Those uppity Israelis, how dare they suggest they're civilized white Westerners like us!" is exactly the creepy anti-Zionist meme I'm talking about. So first we're Islamophobes for saying that Israel is a Western country. When we point out that it's Israel saying that, we're then called anti-semites. That's a pretty nifty little parlor trick you got there. quote:Hmm. I wonder why Tibetans have failed to create a broad and public campaign agitating for boycotts against China. Must be because they're so happy with the way things are going in Lhasa, there's no other explanation for the lack of highly visible mass public protests against Chinese rule, right? There is a large Tibetan community in India and Nepal with large, well-organized advocacy groups. None of these groups to my knowledge has called for a boycott and arguably the spokesperson for the Tibetan people, the Dalai Lama, has explicitly rejected a boycott of China. quote:Nothing you, or FreshleyShaven, said pertains to the point I was making. The video you linked shows a dude ranting in Arabic and (assuming the subtitles are to be trusted) saying "Why doesn't Syria's army learn from the Israeli Army and avoid targeting civilian areas in Lebanon and Palestine?" I don't see anything about "Assad, you're making Israel look good" or anyone saying that anyone who criticizes Assad is a genocidist or whatever you're talking about; I see a patent lie used to justify the massacre of Arabs. Israel does not avoid targeting civilian areas; in fact, it's official Israeli policy to target entire civilian neighborhoods as a form of collective punishment. To praise the unprovoked massacre of Palestinian civilians as an example to be followed is likely to piss people off. I don't know of many outside of the loony fringes(as in, LaRouche levels of looniness) who support Assad. Saying "Assad is a butcher" is not likely to raise anyone's ire in the West. Unfortunately, there are still many people in the West who fiercely support Israel despite (or because of?) her record of ethnic cleansing, apartheid, jingoism and massacring civilians. That's why the tenor gets more heated. Saying "Assad is an SOB" is about as controversial as arguing that puppies are cute. To be honest, I don't know what you're trying to argue here. Are you saying that Palestinian activists support Assad? Or that because the I/P thread gets more heated than a thread where everyone agrees Assad or ISIS are evil, everyone who posts here has a pathological hatred for Israel? If you feel I missed your point and just launched into an attack on Israel, it's because I genuinely do not understand what exactly your point is.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2015 17:06
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Saudi Arabia is close allies with a number of Western countries, including the US. Certainly Saudi Arabia's reputation isn't stellar among people who know anything at all about it, but it's not universally reviled in the West either. I'm aware that it has close ties with many Western nations, but I'm pretty sure there are very few people in the West who think "Saudi Arabia is a great country and a beacon of Good in the Middle East" like they do Israel. Regarding there not being a BDS movement against other countries, like Saudi Arabia; I agree that it's pretty inconsistent. I believe that the reason is that people tend to be more offended when they see nations that they perceive as "similar to their own" doing bad things (see: the huge focus on the Holocaust as opposed to something like the Cambodian genocide). Many people hear about atrocities occurring on sub-Saharan Africa and they think "this isn't unusual" and/or "I can't easily relate with the people from this country" and it doesn't stand out as much in their minds. But when they see a country like Israel, that is generally perceived as being a modern nation similar to the one they live in, it bothers them more when they see it committing war crimes. This is definitely irrational, but I think that it's a significant cause of there being such a large focus on Israel. All this being said, I still think it's irrelevant to the discussion of whether Israel is actually doing bad things and should change and stop doing them. As an extreme (but still analogous) example, let's say you had some guy in the early 1940s whose girlfriend broke up with him to date a German man, and his anger towards Germans makes him more eager and willing to discuss the crimes of Nazi Germany than, say, Imperial Japan. The fact that he is focusing on Nazi Germany for an irrational reason doesn't change the fact that Nazi Germany was, in fact, bad and that his criticisms may have been true.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2015 20:19
|
|
|
Isreal has approved increased mandatory minimums for demonstrators that throw rocks and fireworks which will last for the next 3 years without reapproval they have also loosened the rules of engagement on protesters to allow firing Ruger .22's at individuals who present a danger to the public vs. the old standard of direct threat to security personnel. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/25/world/middleeast/israel-acts-to-combat-violence-in-jerusalem.html?_r=0
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2015 23:11
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:But when they see a country like Israel, that is generally perceived as being a modern nation similar to the one they live in, it bothers them more when they see it committing war crimes. This is definitely irrational, but I think that it's a significant cause of there being such a large focus on Israel. Certainly, but this is where Chomsky's point about the West being in massive, massive denial about the crimes of our governments proves key. There shouldn't be some philo-Semitism where Jews are seen as inherently magical progressive elves, and anyone failing to live up to the brave standards of western cultural norms is somehow committing betrayal. The only proper way to analyze the concept is through a vacuum and solely considering the relevant matters of fact.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2015 06:33
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:Certainly, but this is where Chomsky's point about the West being in massive, massive denial about the crimes of our governments proves key. There shouldn't be some philo-Semitism where Jews are seen as inherently magical progressive elves, and anyone failing to live up to the brave standards of western cultural norms is somehow committing betrayal. This is the same as saying there's no way to analyze it at all, in practice. Inevitably, we carry perspectives that make this kind of objectivity impossible to implement. Thus, any conclusion which is unassailable from your limited objectivity will be inevitably flawed and demanding this standard will make communication more difficult.
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2015 06:38
|
|
|
I'm sure glad we waited until every single country with a worse human rights record than South Africa changed their ways before we criticized South Africa, it wouldn't have been worth getting rid of apartheid if it meant hurting Botha's feelings.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2015 17:14
|
|
|
Edit: Okay sorry this was too much. You people do not even acknowledge the point I am trying to make, I have no desire to prance around for the purpose of your little circlejerk, sorry.
emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Sep 26, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2015 17:24
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:Edit: Okay sorry this was too much. You people do not even acknowledge the point I am trying to make, I have no desire to prance around for the purpose of your little circlejerk, sorry. you can't complain about internet arguments until you mention how bad human trafficking is, bigot.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2015 19:55
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:
I agree in principle and I know many do, and I also think people can't fathom this argument because they're so used to so effortlessly being right.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2015 20:11
|
|
|
I think that most of the people who pin "Israel is the largest target of BDS and the only target where BDS is in the public eye" primarily on antisemitism are ignoring that organized Palestinian international political activism has been going for 51 years, and the other movements of similar antiquity have either had their situation resolved (ANC) or have settled into a relatively defused situation (PIRA). About the only one which has a similar period of existence is the Tibetan diaspora, and they in turn have rejected efforts to boycott the PRC. There's simply a state of inertia for BDSing Israel which does not exist for Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sri Lanka, and all the many other nations that engage in criminal and unjust behavior and are also small and weak enough for BDS to be potentially possible (as opposed to the UK, the USA, France, the PRC, Russia, etc.). Hopefully this will be resolved and a general state of willingness to engage in activism against these governments will come about.
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2015 20:23
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:Edit: Okay sorry this was too much. You people do not even acknowledge the point I am trying to make, I have no desire to prance around for the purpose of your little circlejerk, sorry. I was wondering if there has been any movement in Israel over the Palestinian Christians going on strikes over poor allocation of resources at their schools?
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2015 20:34
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:I'm sure glad we waited until every single country with a worse human rights record than South Africa changed their ways before we criticized South Africa, it wouldn't have been worth getting rid of apartheid if it meant hurting Botha's feelings. This is why, even though I agree that the disproportionate focus on Israel is irrational, I'm very wary of people who post those sort of arguments. More often than not, they're posting those arguments as a way to defend Israel, rather than to call attention to the crimes of other countries. Their goal isn't for people to suddenly attack, say, Saudi Arabia with the same fervor as they do Israel, but rather for them to stop attacking Israel. I think that there should be a discussion on the reasons (as I'm sure there are at least several) people disproportionately focus on Israel, but I don't think "places discussing the problems with Israel/Palestine" is where that discussion should take place.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2015 21:26
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:This is why, even though I agree that the disproportionate focus on Israel is irrational, I'm very wary of people who post those sort of arguments. More often than not, they're posting those arguments as a way to defend Israel, rather than to call attention to the crimes of other countries. Their goal isn't for people to suddenly attack, say, Saudi Arabia with the same fervor as they do Israel, but rather for them to stop attacking Israel. Just on the face of it, making a big show about how posters in the I/P thread focus too much on israeli actions is disingenuous. There are a couple people here we're all aware of who do it just because they're trolls/idiots but that kind of sells the other people, who are genuinely still opposed to and disgusted by israel's actions kind of short. It's not an entirely invalid criticism and it shouldn't necessarily be dismissed. But you know...not in the place where we literally talk about nothing else but the topic at hand. I don't know about y'all but one of the big reasons that I've been drawn to following/talking about it on the internet with strangers, reading books about it etc, is mainly the fact that the majority of my life I bought the idea that israel was a bastion of tolerance and progressivism besieged by the muslim hordes. I think it's important, not just to deflect the criticism of excessive focus on israel but to simply be a more well-informed person overall, to be at least aware of the crimes of other countries. At the very least that gives you some perspective. I feel like the majority of people at least here in the USA support israel just as a matter of course; then again there are certainly people who hate and abhor war crimes and occupation as much as me but may still feel that the settlements, the house destructions, checkpoint humiliations etc are all genuinely in the name of security though so perhaps I'm a bit naive when it comes to just how strongly the record can stand on it's own. Ultramega fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Sep 27, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2015 00:40
|
|
|
emanresU tnuoccA is a good poster who offers a unique perspective on the issues by virtual of being an israeli. He also 100% sympathizes with palestinians and has butted heads in the past with AA over stuff like Israel protests over domestic issues in the face of serious inhumane crimes against Palestine and racism. It's bad that people are alienating him by suggesting that he's making up excuses for Israel. My own personal opinion: I focus more on Israel because we have a direct and current effect on the crisis in Palestine; America has hosed over the vast majority of the Middle East, but we're actively and aggressively participating in a loving-over of an entire group of semites (who are also some of the most secular arabs in the region, and are second only to Iran in terms of countries a Just USA would and should ally with) this very moment. It's like the difference between the native americans that we have hosed over and are still suffering from prior actions, and the crisis in I/P; I want to fix both, I want the reservations to flourish and for Palestine to become a burgeoning and healthy ally in the region (or for a fully integrated Israel that does not discriminate on race or religion, and does not destroy shared muslim-jew history), but if I must divide my attention I will focus on the people most in danger. As depressing as the current state of our reservations are, at least they have hospitals, clean running water, and safety (in terms of not being bombed or [literally] crushed). That is not to say that we shouldn't focus on other crisis' in the area. The situation in Syria is bad (and the Middle East thread effectively serves as a thread for its problems). Turkey's "accidental" bombings of Kurdish militias that are/were successfully destroying ISIL is -very- bad and also something I would argue is as urgent to condemn as Israeli's slow-burning of the palestinians. Literal slave labor in Dubai/Qatar is incredibly bad. These deserve immense attention and action as well, even if there aren't any Devils Advocates stirring the pot.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2015 02:27
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:This is why, even though I agree that the disproportionate focus on Israel is irrational, I'm very wary of people who post those sort of arguments. More often than not, they're posting those arguments as a way to defend Israel, rather than to call attention to the crimes of other countries. Their goal isn't for people to suddenly attack, say, Saudi Arabia with the same fervor as they do Israel, but rather for them to stop attacking Israel. Yeah, just compare it to other causes. Do people who want more money for cancer research go out and raise money for cancer research, or do they go tell people to stop donating money to diabetes research.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2015 02:59
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:Yeah, just compare it to other causes. Do people who want more money for cancer research go out and raise money for cancer research, or do they go tell people to stop donating money to diabetes research. Exactly. That would be as sadistic and as revealing as anti-Zionists who insist there's no obligation to help Palestinians living in Jordan or Lebanon because they want the brutalization of Palestinians in those places to continue if it increases pressure on Israel. Or, likewise, those anti-Zionists who happily consign women and LGBT and political dissidents in the West Bank or Gaza Strip to torment because anything that interferes with their monomaniacal and manichean obsession with saintly Palestinians victimized by satanic Israelis must be shunted aside. Neurolimal posted:and are second only to Iran in terms of countries a Just USA would and should ally with)  The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Sep 27, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2015 03:59
|
|
The Insect Court posted:Exactly. That would be as sadistic and as revealing as anti-Zionists who insist there's no obligation to help Palestinians living in Jordan or Lebanon because they want the brutalization of Palestinians in those places to continue if it increases pressure on Israel. Or, likewise, those anti-Zionists who happily consign women and LGBT and political dissidents in the West Bank or Gaza Strip to torment because anything that interferes with their monomaniacal and manichean obsession with saintly Palestinians victimized by satanic Israelis must be shunted aside. Well, those people are bad, and I hope the IDF burns them to death with white phosphorus.
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2015 04:01
|
|
|
The Insect Court posted:Exactly. That would be as sadistic and as revealing as anti-Zionists who insist there's no obligation to help Palestinians living in Jordan or Lebanon because they want the brutalization of Palestinians in those places to continue if it increases pressure on Israel. Or, likewise, those anti-Zionists who happily consign women and LGBT and political dissidents in the West Bank or Gaza Strip to torment because anything that interferes with their monomaniacal and manichean obsession with saintly Palestinians victimized by satanic Israelis must be shunted aside. Welp, the Palestinians aren't perfect, wrap it up, let's let them get cleansed. That's pretty much what you always argue, TIC.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2015 04:17
|
|
|
The Insect Court posted:Exactly. That would be as sadistic and as revealing as anti-Zionists who insist there's no obligation to help Palestinians living in Jordan or Lebanon because they want the brutalization of Palestinians in those places to continue if it increases pressure on Israel. Or, likewise, those anti-Zionists who happily consign women and LGBT and political dissidents in the West Bank or Gaza Strip to torment because anything that interferes with their monomaniacal and manichean obsession with saintly Palestinians victimized by satanic Israelis must be shunted aside. 1. As a gay guy who went through a lot of bullshit in my life over "acting faggy": gently caress right off with this abuse of the LGBQT community for your justification of destroying Palestine. Which do you think is more likely for a gay youth in the Gaza strip: to be hanged by hamas members who totally have nothing else better to do, or to be killed by an israeli operation for the crime of being in a city that only managed to stop 99% of rocket attacks (or, in the case of Protective Edge, for the crime of a separate sect's killings)? 2. You are an admitted neoliberal and supporter of a US global agenda. Explain how refusing to ally and interact with Iran allows you to force them to stop hanging people or using other lethal measures. Then explain why an american government would go through with this solution. No neoliberal interested in modernizing Iran's archaic justice system through opening more diplomatic ties, enabling more exchange of cultures, and allowing financial pressure from the results of an intertwined america-iran export/import system. 3. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2015 04:50
|
|
|
Ultramega posted:
Then genuinely think for yourself instead of trying to atone for past sins or whatever. Read everything under the sun, not just sources you agree with. Neurolimal posted:1. As a gay guy who went through a lot of bullshit in my life over "acting faggy": gently caress right off with this abuse of the LGBQT community for your justification of destroying Palestine. Which do you think is more likely for a gay youth in the Gaza strip: to be hanged by hamas members who totally have nothing else better to do, or to be killed by an israeli operation for the crime of being in a city that only managed to stop 99% of rocket attacks (or, in the case of Protective Edge, for the crime of a separate sect's killings)? Ok, then under this logic let's ignore everything Israel does that's wrong because X and Y are worse. This idea that Palestinian LGBT rights are only brought up as a canard to justify Israel and should be forced to suffer in silence due to solidarity with resistance or some other claptrap is pure garbage.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2015 05:04
|
|
|
England castrated gays in the 1940s, did u know? Really makes u think about the motives of people who supported self-determination for homophobes like the 1940s English
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2015 05:07
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:
Intolerance of LGBQT minorities in muslim-dominated countries is something to address (ideally when they are stable and healthy). It is disregarded in I/P debates because 1. They are some of the least extremist followers of islam out of many of the middle-eastern nationalities, 2. Neither the West Bank nor the Gaza Strip can significantly impact or change their governments; Abbas and his corrupt officials have long ago halted elections, and are not trustworthy enough to hold honest elections (and have the backing of a country that specializes in surveillances, security, and crowd control). Hamas is essentially the only real government option within the Gaza Strip; there exist other groups, but they are primarily interested in starting poo poo and earning brownie points, like the ISIL retards. Nobody else is willing to actually attempt the sisyphean effort of defending, maintaining, and supporting the Gaza Strip. A significant (possibly even majority) of the West Bank do not care for Abbas' governance and have no reasonable course to change it, and if you were to stumble into the wreckage of the Gaza Strip and ask about LGBQT rights everyone (straight, gay, bisexual, man, woman) would look at you like you were a jackass.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2015 05:33
|
|
|
I'm not saying it's the most pressing issue possible but I'd wager LGBT Palestinians would resent being told they're jackasses for maybe think it's cool to be not having to pick between dying in a white phosphorous strike because they were kinda next to where rockets came out and maybe getting actually lynched by their government. TIC was, as always, an idiot for doing the whole 'we gotta murder the muslim savages I bet you liberals are conflicted now that you know they murder gays too' thing any other right wing chickenhawk does, but utterly dismissing the idea that maybe we can say Palestine should be independent and free and oh also when they're free they shouldn't kill gay people.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2015 05:39
|
|
|
Well they shouldn't kill gay people, but TIC's claim that the occupation is somehow to the benefit of LGBT Palestinians is loving ridiculous.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2015 05:41
|
|
|
Tatum Girlparts posted:TIC was, as always, an idiot for doing the whole 'we gotta murder the muslim savages I bet you liberals are conflicted now that you know they murder gays too' thing any other right wing chickenhawk does, but utterly dismissing the idea that maybe we can say Palestine should be independent and free and oh also when they're free they shouldn't kill gay people. I completely agree with you. But this bolded word is important. Hamas and the Palestinians are far from perfect, but there has to be an order of priorities for how to improve Palestine; you can't focus on the pain in your pinky when theres a sword in your throat. Once Palestinians are safe I will absolutely listen to critiques of any socially conservative laws and traditions they hold. I want to see a middle-east that is safe for LGBQT members. I also want to see a stable and thriving middle-east. One is both more pressing and contributes to the other.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2015 05:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 23:36 |
|
|
Yes again TIC is a mental case, my main issue was that the conversation felt like it was leaning into 'why even bring it up at all ever' when, yea there's kinda good times to bring it up, like when they kill us. It's ALSO a good time to bring up Israeli issues with orthodox types stabbing gay pride goers, throwing rocks at women, spitting on people who look Arab, banning women from going to sacred sites that are important to us as a whole, and other issues when they come up. So yea I'm not on the 'no see we need to support the IDF because everyone else is bigots' train, Israel has a lot of poo poo about their treatment of minorities aside from the whole apartheid thing they need to sort out.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2015 05:47
|
|