|
Spatula City posted:The Dalek city looked awesomely retro-weird, It was based on the original Dalek city from the Daleks (inside and out)
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 18:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 05:47 |
|
|
MrL_JaKiri posted:Am I misreading you are are you literally and actually calling people who don't like an aspect of Moffat's scriptwriting wrong? If there's one thing, just one thing, about Moffat's writing (especially for Clara) it's well it's right there ^^
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 18:56
|
|
|
Spatula City posted:The acting and dialogue writing were good in both parts, and the episodes LOOKED really good. The Dalek city looked awesomely retro-weird, and the sewers were a cool idea, though perhaps one that should have been set up earlier.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 19:13
|
|
|
MrL_JaKiri posted:It was based on the original Dalek city from the Daleks (inside and out) Yeah though they seem to have replaced the entirely metal city with a lot of stone for some reason. That's not a major thing by any stretch, but it kind of bugs me with everything else. One of the most unique ideas about that dead city was that it was totally made of metal. Also that it was radioactive as gently caress but you know, I guess the Daleks just left that out of Skaro 3.0
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 19:15
|
|
|
I think I would have liked these two episodes better if Davros and Missy had been the two locked in room together and got in dick waving contest over which one was the Doctor's greatest nemis.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 19:28
|
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:Nah, Gallifrey was only hidden away and made to look like it blew up (okay so the first go-round probably counts as once). Skaro got clean destroyed at least twice. Once by Seven tricking the Daleks into turning their own sun into a supernova, and the other during the Time War. Hasn't Skaro already been back? I thought it was Skaro that was in the opening of Asylum.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 19:29
|
|
|
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 19:31
|
|
|
Rochallor posted:Hasn't Skaro already been back? I thought it was Skaro that was in the opening of Asylum. Asylum opens on the ruins of Skaro with the Doctor lured there by a humanoid Dalek.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 19:31
|
|
|
Burkion posted:Yeah though they seem to have replaced the entirely metal city with a lot of stone for some reason. I've always thought the history in The Daleks was changed dramatically by the Doctor screwing around with their timeline in Genesis, followed by the Time War screwing further with their history, to the point where you can pretty much make Skaro a bunch of skyscrapers with a vibrant coffee house community and it still falls pretty well within belief. --- As I've mentioned before, I absolutely loving loved these episodes and felt like they fit together perfectly; the only (minor) issue I had was with the cliffhanger, because everyone who had seen a minute of Doctor Who in the past knew he was going to fry all the hand mines and save Lil' Davros.  Sure, Clara and Missy fell in too well together---but isn't that part of the Master's M.O.? Even the Doctor admits that s/he's probably the closest person to him. The Master has always been oddly charming, even at his/her most bonkers; most sociopaths are. the Delgado incarnation was especially indicative of that, and even Jacobi's incredibly brief onscreen stint had a certain air of dignified gravitas to it.The best of the two-parter, in my opinion, was Davros and the Doctor's interactions. I agree that everything Davros said before "Let me see the sun rise" was genuine; he legitimately gave the Doctor the greatest gift he could think of, the thing he assumes he always wanted deep in his hearts---total Dalek genocide. Now that there was nothing left for him, he wanted to finally let the Doctor correct the "mistake" he made during Genesis to return the kindness shown to him as a child. When the Doctor rejects it, oh well, he tried, guess you gotta fall back to what you know in times like these! The scene that'll stick with me is Davros' genuine (imo) and excited "I am happy for you!" when he finds out Gallifrey is still out there. It was simultaneously alien (given Davros' eugenics and fascism) and incredibly touching, because we've never seen any emotion out of Davros other than madness and hate. That, the chair gag, and the two of them cracking up at Davros' quip. It reminded me of Batman and Joker from the end of The Killing Joke; they're both beaten down physically and emotionally, there's nothing left in the tank for either of them, and it's a rare shared moment of truce between two mortal enemies which exposes what little humanity (er, Kaledmanity?) that's left in him. Most shocking is that he even has it a bit left in the first place.  help I am a nerd
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 19:40
|
|
|
side_burned posted:I think I would have liked these two episodes better if Davros and Missy had been the two locked in room together and got in dick waving contest over which one was the Doctor's greatest nemis. Now that's an idea I'd like to see Big Finish tackle.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 20:10
|
|
|
side_burned posted:I think I would have liked these two episodes better if Davros and Missy had been the two locked in room together and got in dick waving contest over which one was the Doctor's greatest nemis. They could also have a "Wait, how the gently caress did you survive THAT"-off.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 21:02
|
|
|
One thing that would have redeemed the entire two parter for me, even though the entire first episode is utterly pointless outside of like five minutes of set up, is if the Doctor, or even a DALEK, at some point threw it in the Master's face about how she really felt about them. That for all of her bluster and ego and devil may cry attitudes, when brought back to face the Daleks in the Time War- She ran. She ran as far and as hard as she could, losing even her own identity, to the very end of time itself. That would have been a great character moment and could have given us something I really love seeing from the Master that we haven't gotten to explore too much with this incarnation- her being utterly, completely pissed off and revealing how truly ugly she is.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 21:18
|
|
|
Chokes McGee posted:I've always thought the history in The Daleks was changed dramatically by the Doctor screwing around with their timeline in Genesis, followed by the Time War screwing further with their history, to the point where you can pretty much make Skaro a bunch of skyscrapers with a vibrant coffee house community and it still falls pretty well within belief. My favourite idea for the dalek timeline was that the very first story was their last, that they stopped being this great technological power and had to resort to hiding within the remains of their once great home city.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 21:27
|
|
|
MrL_JaKiri posted:My favourite idea for the dalek timeline was that the very first story was their last, that they stopped being this great technological power and had to resort to hiding within the remains of their once great home city. My idea with the Dalek timeline always came hand in hand with my idea of how Doctor Who time travel works, generally. Namely that we are always seeing things not as they were, but as they are at that moment. There are Fixed points in time that cannot be altered, but other things can. One of those? The Doctor finds the Daleks as we saw, has adventures- then the Time Lords gently caress things up and have the Doctor go back to their creation. Him mucking around THEN radically alters how the Daleks were after, a ripple effect through time and space. So if the Doctor went BACK to when he first met them, things would be different and he might not even be there anymore. Hence the Daleks go from needing constant improvements to be able to keep going, to being prepared for all of the threats the Doctor informed Davros of, making them ever stronger. Effectively in a meta sense, the only way the time line makes any sense is by watching the show chronologically. Even things that happen before still happen later, because it is the Doctor's time line that supersedes the time line of the universe- the Doctor and the Time Lords themselves, of course.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 21:50
|
|
|
think that was pretty tedious. about the same as last week.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 21:59
|
|
|
i'm thinking as a one off experiment they should structure an episode now in the stye of a sketch show with unrelated two or three minute scenes to chuck out all their fun ideas without bothering with hour long plot to force them to try to hang together. would mean things like the tone shift whiplash from the chair joke wouldn't matter. and you wouldn't be thinking "is nothing actually coming from the airplane time-freeze thing".
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 22:04
|
|
|
I did love how the Master's face fell when she realized they were on Skaro. For just a moment the mask gets stripped away and she's just scared because she knows how dangerous the situation is. She quickly rights herself and puts her front back up, but I could absolutely believe this is the same person who got resurrected to fight in the Time War and promptly just ran away to the end of the universe and hid her own personality inside a fobwatch just to escape having to face up to the War.Burkion posted:Effectively in a meta sense, the only way the time line makes any sense is by watching the show chronologically. Even things that happen before still happen later, because it is the Doctor's time line that supersedes the time line of the universe- the Doctor and the Time Lords themselves, of course. That's how I've always seen it too - history (and the future) may constantly be changing but for the Doctor and other high-level time-travellers it remains the same. As you say, if he went back to the exact time/place of earlier stories now they might be completely different, but they still happened as they did in the Doctor's past.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 22:04
|
|
|
When did having jokes become tone-shift whiplash?
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 22:41
|
|
|
Frontier in Space has plenty of problems but is basically the only working attempt at Grand Space Opera in Doctor Who. There's a lot of detail in the societies and how they actually work, despite generally only seeing the upper echelons.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 22:49
|
|
|
Actually here's a question. See I heard what you guys were talking about Davros' eyes, and I thought, OK, they're scarred and blind and the Doctor has to open them for him. Damaged in some way, sure. Nope apparently Davros just has PERFECTLY FINE EYES. I'm pretty sure at some point during the entire shebang Davros was described as blind, so him having working eyes, let alone eyes at all, is a really weird thing. It also made him look worse than he ever has before, like a knock off Freddy Kruger, when his eyes were open. Why does Davros NEVER use his perfectly fine eyes? It'd take more effort to keep them closed all the time than it would to keep them open unless they were physically damaged or scarred, but apparently they're not! The only possible sense I can make of it is some how Davros lost his eyes due to the hand mine incident but the Doctor changed that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 22:51
|
|
|
This being Davros, I would legit not put it past him to have surgically implanted new eyes just to try to manipulate the Doctor! I imagine the deal is supposed to be that whatever issues his body has long had stretching all the way back before Genesis makes it so actually using his real eyes is an enormous strain on him. What that condition could actually be who knows.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 22:58
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:This being Davros, I would legit not put it past him to have surgically implanted new eyes just to try to manipulate the Doctor! Oddly Davros seems the type to keep all of his faults and flaws, as he feels they have made him what he is today. Kind of the reason why he hasn't fixed his other arm or given the Daleks legs or some such. I just wish they would have addressed any reason in the episode I guess.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 23:05
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:Forgive me if I missed any explanation you gave earlier, but how involved in the production were (are?) you? Just producing stuff (I assume props?) for particular episodes or working on the season as a whole? Exactly how much time and effort goes into things that might flash by on the screen in a single moment (or be cut entirely, as happened with your flags)? Were you operating under a single production crew or just shifting about here and there as individual episodes/filming blocks etc might have demanded? There's no specific cool stories, but just stuff you can imagine when watching the episodes - seeing Peter - who will always be Malcom Tucker to me - spinnig about in the Davros chair or working with loads of Daleks is just... surreal. I never, ever got bored of being around the TARDISeseses, all those Daleks, and the sets in general. Maybe once xmas is aired I can talk about it a little bit but I'm sort of not here to drop exclusive insider knowledge or anything - I just like reading people's reactions as they watch the episode - the job is a very intense little bubble and it's sort of nice to see people actually engage with it (for better or worse). My job was Graphic Designer for series 9, which generally speaking is the best job in the Art Department, and in the case of DW I think might be the best job in the world. Printed props, background stuff like posters, signage, books, bottle labels, big stuff like control panels, ENORMOUS PERSPEX MAPS, video screens, cut vinyls, little sticky labels, number plates, etched details on props etc is all my remit. It's a bloody tough job because DW is more graphics-intensive than the majority of shows, but I could honestly churn out backlit perspex control panels all day. It was the job of dreams. It's not like Star Trek which has the same 6 sets and then a Planet of the Week, it's something completely new every single time. I did waaaaay more than the usual amount of work to on some eps - by choice - because the work was irresistible. Why design two posters for the cantina bar WHEN YOU CAN MAKE SEVEN (answer: because only 1 was visible in the final edit). The UNIT control room took me about 8, maybe 9 solid days of work for something that's on screen for less than 10 minutes. It's hilarious how little of what we did is visible in those scenes - there must have been about 15 individual video screens in there - which meant 7 different looping video readouts - mocked up over a couple of days in Photoshop and animated by a friend of mine. The massive map took about 4 days of work in Illustrator, working out what looked good or not too busy, what the laser cutter could cope with, etc. All of this while working out a new graphic identity for UNIT in terms of symbols/typeface (the logo remains unchanged), doing things like paperwork on the desks, vinyl graphics for the cases and cabinets, etc...on any given job they only show 10% of what you make, you just have to make sure there are no blank corners. MrL_JaKiri posted:I'm really really sorry echoplex, but when I read this I forgot you worked on it and thought you were going for satire (because approximately 0% of the non-prop bits of the episode were "about the details") I'm not a DW fan, but I always felt from the attitude in this thread that DW is quite like Star Trek in that the 'canon' isn't immutable and serves stories going forward, rather than everything being Wiki-citation correct (don't quote me on this, I'm not the scriptwriter). It's a shame when people don't like it, because the crew I worked with were hardcore as balls and really pushed to make the show as good as it can be, but I do realise that's only a small part of it. echoplex fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Sep 28, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 23:16
|
|
|
echoplex posted:The UNIT control room took me about 8, maybe 9 solid days of work for something that's on screen for less than 10 minutes. Did you ever consider sacking it all off and turning in the world's most ridiculous misuse of CSO as a tribute to Barry Letts?
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 23:18
|
|
|
echoplex posted:I'm not a DW fan, but I always felt from the attitude in this thread that DW is quite like Star Trek in that the 'canon' isn't immutable and serves stories going forward, rather than everything being Wiki-citation correct (don't quote me on this, I'm not the scriptwriter). It's a shame when people don't like it, because the crew I worked with were hardcore as balls and really pushed to make the show as good as it can be, but I do realise that's only a small part of it. One thing I do feel like I owe explaining to you- I have absolutely zero problems with your work, or really any of the work of the actors or prop people. I may laugh about stone pillar being used instead of metal or whatever else, but all of that is minor. My issues with Who have always come down to story, and through that the writing. Well that and the occasional time when a design just doesn't work- Re, Davros with Eyes= Knock Off Freddy Kruger. (Or the Human Dalek from RTD's era) The visual side of the show is great, especially the art design this go-around. You, your team, and others who work on the show do a fantastic job.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 23:22
|
|
|
That sounds like a great job (with an incredibly high workload!), congratulations 
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 23:23
|
|
|
I'm seeing double! Eight Mary Tamms!
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 23:23
|
|
|
MrL_JaKiri posted:Frontier in Space has plenty of problems but is basically the only working attempt at Grand Space Opera in Doctor Who. There's a lot of detail in the societies and how they actually work, despite generally only seeing the upper echelons. It's certainly the story that works hardest to make you forget it's literally six episodes of the Doctor getting captured over and over. I don't know what it is, but you barely even notice until the end. The Draconians look great, too.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 23:29
|
|
|
echoplex posted:I'm not a DW fan, but I always felt from the attitude in this thread that DW is quite like Star Trek in that the 'canon' isn't immutable and serves stories going forward, rather than everything being Wiki-citation correct (don't quote me on this, I'm not the scriptwriter). It's a shame when people don't like it, because the crew I worked with were hardcore as balls and really pushed to make the show as good as it can be, but I do realise that's only a small part of it. There's a distinction between not liking the story and not liking the production. I don't doubt that all the people involved work very hard - as is traditional on Doctor Who - to deliver the best they can with the budget available. I just personally don't like the stories, or the style of stories, that Moffat appears to be choosing to do at the moment. Speaking of production, there's an interesting contrast between the outfits Tamm and Ward designed for themselves 
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 23:29
|
|
|
MrL_JaKiri posted:I'm seeing double! Eight Mary Tamms! 
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2015 23:38
|
|
|
Moffat's episode focus has become events around which the characters can do drama with eachother. Anyone else feel like this? I really do like the dialogue that Moffat writes for non-Mary Sues though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2015 00:12
|
|
|
Kikka posted:Moffat's episode focus has become events around which the characters can do drama with eachother. Anyone else feel like this? This basically sounds like a description of all storytelling.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2015 00:14
|
|
|
Maybe I worded that badly. Perhaps a greater focus on creating big character moments would be a better description. I dislike Moffat's episodes, but I'm trying to think exactly WHY I find them bad.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2015 00:18
|
|
|
Burkion posted:Actually here's a question. See I heard what you guys were talking about Davros' eyes, and I thought, OK, they're scarred and blind and the Doctor has to open them for him. Damaged in some way, sure. Many people who are legally blind have some degree of vision, ability to see shapes and colors, etc. If he had to choose between blurred, failing, probably painful natural eyesight or dalekvision then It's pretty clear he'd be all about the blue glowing eyeball.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2015 00:42
|
|
|
One Swell Foop posted:Many people who are legally blind have some degree of vision, ability to see shapes and colors, etc. If he had to choose between blurred, failing, probably painful natural eyesight or dalekvision then It's pretty clear he'd be all about the blue glowing eyeball. There's a bit of a difference between being legally blind, and appearing to have had your eyes seared from your skull for most of your existence. Just having eyes you can open out of nowhere is something of a stumbling block due to that. It's like if the Doctor suddenly revealed he had three arms as casually as his hair color. That's not something he has. Might not have been as jarring if the effect was done any better, or at least they gave him clouded eyes or scarred eyes. Anything, really.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2015 00:47
|
|
|
While we're on the topic of Daleks, I realize that beep-boop people find different things scary beep-boop, but I'm having a hell of a time wrapping my head around people ever being afraid of the Daleks. I read stories about kids hiding behind couches, and I just can't understand it. Is it simply a more modern version of "people fainted in fear of seeing Frankenstein in 1931"?
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2015 00:59
|
|
|
The Mirror reports Corey Taylor of the band Slipknot is playing a monster in the next episode. And by 'playing', I don't mean he will appear physically - he will do the monster's screams. Peter Serafinowicz will provider the monster's speaking voice.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2015 01:02
|
|
|
MisterBibs posted:While we're on the topic of Daleks, I realize that beep-boop people find different things scary beep-boop, but I'm having a hell of a time wrapping my head around people ever being afraid of the Daleks. I read stories about kids hiding behind couches, and I just can't understand it. The Daleks have gotten significantly less terrifying over the years. If nothing else, repeatedly having the Doctor make fun of them doesn't make the Doctor seem better - it makes the Daleks seem less of a threat.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2015 01:06
|
|
|
And now I've finished The Androids of Tara I'm now officially more than half way 
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2015 01:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 05:47 |
|
|
MisterBibs posted:While we're on the topic of Daleks, I realize that beep-boop people find different things scary beep-boop, but I'm having a hell of a time wrapping my head around people ever being afraid of the Daleks. I read stories about kids hiding behind couches, and I just can't understand it. Back in the day they were actual characters and not living props that shout catch phrases. I say back in the day but we've also had brief stints in Modern Who where they were characters too. But you know how that goes. The thing about the Dalek's character is that they are Nazis taken to the extreme. They are the idealized Nazi. Like, take Davros- in Genesis of the Daleks, he was a horrific human being, easily as terrible as Himmler... But he was a human being. He had, however twisted and bleak, a sense of morality and loyalty, a broken sense of right and wrong. The Daleks were what he aspired to, what he believed needed to exist to survive and thrive- and they found him, for all of his cruelty and evil, wanting. The effects nowadays and writing lessen the impact they have, but in the moment I can definitely see how a well done Dalek story would scare youngsters. Especially the speech at the end of Genesis, how fevered and utterly sure they were of their dominance and eventual triumph. They were very, very intense, emotional monsters and that alone could be more terrifying than anything else.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2015 01:13
|
|