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The Insect Court posted:What's this "all Jews" stuff? You said discrimination against Jews attempting to practice their faith can't be considered antisemitic, because it isn't targeting Jews based on the idea of Jewish ethnicity. If you're not going to back down from that absurd stance then bombing a synagogue isn't an antisemitic act because it's If England passed a law tomorrow mandating the stunning of animals followed by X method of slaughter, it would not be antisemitic. If England passed a law tomorrow stating that only Jews had to observe the new slaughtering rules, that would be antisemitic. If you can't understand the nuance then no wonder you see antisemites everywhere.
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Oct 6, 2015 09:49
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The third intifada seems to be on at last.
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Oct 6, 2015 11:06
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Hong XiuQuan posted:If England passed a law tomorrow mandating the stunning of animals followed by X method of slaughter, it would not be antisemitic. Of course it would be.
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Oct 6, 2015 12:27
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emanresu tnuocca posted:The third intifada seems to be on at last. I hope it isn't.
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Oct 6, 2015 12:30
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Baron Porkface posted:Of course it would be. Yes, you see an animal welfare law that happens to affect religious Jews and Muslims would be antisemitic because:
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Oct 6, 2015 13:13
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Yes, you see an animal welfare law that happens to affect religious Jews and Muslims would be antisemitic because: Of course it's not. Just like voting tests and poll taxes aren't racist, restrictions that just happen to ban kosher and Halial meat aren't anti-semitic.
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Oct 6, 2015 13:23
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Harik posted:Of course it's not. Just like voting tests and poll taxes aren't racist, restrictions that just happen to ban kosher and Halial meat aren't anti-semitic. You can argue that it's strongly impeding religious freedoms but unless the state has a combination of laws and policies designed to make life tough or unbearable for Jewish people, reading that as antisemitic is wilfully stupid. Are you suggesting that Judaism and Jews are utterly inseparable?
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Oct 6, 2015 13:27
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Baron Porkface posted:Of course it would be. Nah, I bet it would be motivated by anti-Muslim dickery.
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Oct 6, 2015 13:31
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Hong XiuQuan posted:You can argue that it's strongly impeding religious freedoms but unless the state has a combination of laws and policies designed to make life tough or unbearable for Jewish people, reading that as antisemitic is wilfully stupid. You don't get anti-kosher laws without racism against Jews, so I'm suggesting that to the people who write those laws they're one and the same.
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Oct 6, 2015 13:41
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Is banning polygamy necessarily a specific attempt at oppressing Mormons or is it possible for a law to infringe on someone's religious freedom without being a deliberate attack on that freedom? e: I know they officially gave up on it and that they were persecuted a bit but hypothetically XMNN fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Oct 6, 2015 |
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Oct 6, 2015 13:56
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emanresu tnuocca posted:The third intifada seems to be on at last. "Sure, I mean why the gently caress not?" - The Middle East
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Oct 6, 2015 14:07
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So, TIC, would you say the Jewish people need some Living Space to the east of their territory?
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Oct 6, 2015 14:09
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DarkCrawler posted:"Sure, I mean why the gently caress not?" Abbas looks like he's trying to calm things down, he states that he considers the Oslo agreements to be 'binding' which would suggest that the tensions across the west bank do not fit with his long term plans, many palestinians have been shot in the past 24 hours, including several children and teenagers, poo poo is looking very bad but the Israeli media seems to be in full 'head in the sand' mode cause only tiny bits and pieces get reported, it's odd. And also, Dear Leader announced that additional restrictions on access to the Al Aqsa mosque are going to be instated within the next few days, I'm sure that will cool things down.
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Oct 6, 2015 14:25
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gently caress everybody hoping for a 3rd intifada. Yay more loving internet posts to read while people get shot in the streets and tortured in shin bet torture cells.
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Oct 6, 2015 14:36
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I visited the Western Wall today, and the trip back was kind of interesting. (ctrl+f to start with "the way back") Don't know how to read the mood, as such, but the number of police officers and barriers certainly does say "We're preparing for another intifada". Might be mostly a reflection of my mindscape, but going through that street felt a bit like a level intro. A linear series of impressions, confrontations between guards and civilians, snippets of conversations overheard. All the remained was being forced to make my way back through the same street as it erupted into chaos. (Wouldn't even have to resort to the obvious cliche of a terrorist attack. Let's say... an alien invasion that makes both sides forget their differences as they fight to protect humanity  )
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Oct 6, 2015 15:28
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Interesting, thank you. Jerusalem just seems like such a surreal place to live, all the surrounded by all that ancient history, modern trappings built around it and the constant weight of the ongoing hostilities. Of course I don't doubt most of it is the same as any other city and the Old City is the place where all of those are at their highest.
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Oct 6, 2015 15:33
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Ultramega posted:gently caress everybody hoping for a 3rd intifada. Yay more loving internet posts to read while people get shot in the streets and tortured in shin bet torture cells. Palestinians have tried peaceful protest and dialogue. Hasn't worked. Protestors tend to get shot in the face. The first intifada led to Madrid and Oslo. The second Intifada was brought down by indiscriminate bombing of civilians. What can else can the Palestinians do? The status quo doesn't help them. Peaceful protests don't help them. Israel's busy trying to equate BDS with antisemitism though it's the biggest economic pressure put on Israel since Reagan. Violence tends to be unhelpful because of indiscriminate use. I don't think people here are praying for another intifada do they can get their jollies off on the internet but more because maybe more pressure on Israel can finally lead to real change.
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Oct 6, 2015 16:22
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I think worrying about a third intifada is rather premature, as I don't know if the current chaos really has that kind of longevity - it's just popular outrage at recent events, and will die down sooner or later as long as it isn't further stoked. Unfortunately, the bodycounts are continuing to stack up on both sides (the most recent fatality is a 13-year-old Palestinian shot in the chest with live ammo by the IDF), riots and attacks from both Palestinians and settlers are still happening regularly, and Netanyahu is promising further restrictions and collective punishment against Palestinians while trying to fend off political attacks from further-right rivals demanding an invasion.
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Oct 6, 2015 16:31
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Ultramega posted:gently caress everybody hoping for a 3rd intifada. Yay more loving internet posts to read while people get shot in the streets and tortured in shin bet torture cells. Is anybody here actually hoping for it, though? It just has seemed inevitable, it's like when you're waiting for the doctor to tell you that you have cancer, the waiting becomes a horror in itself. Hong XiuQuan posted:You can argue that it's strongly impeding religious freedoms but unless the state has a combination of laws and policies designed to make life tough or unbearable for Jewish people, reading that as antisemitic is wilfully stupid. In the US there is a "disparate impact" test for policies. If they seem to single out or target certain demographics in practice, they are opposed as if they had been designed to do so. I would say that a policy that seemed to single out Jewish and Muslim practices would be barred under that view. If in practice it was only enforced on Muslims, then that would be even more flagrant. I realize that it's not a test commonly used in Europe. quote:Are you suggesting that Judaism and Jews are utterly inseparable? I would say that secular Jews still live within a Jewish cultural context, and in that context, they (and I) would feel that an attack singling out Jewish practice for spurious reasons was an attack on them by association. I think that considering the horrors that animals go through in industrial agriculture, singling out Jewish and Muslims slaughter practices as somehow inherently heinous is spurious and probably comes about from bigotry rather than concern for animal welfare, regardless of written and spoken intent. On the other hand, cracking down on unsafe circumcision practices for health reasons is absolutely fine, and I think most Jews would support that. A way to test the waters for such policies is to see how much buy-in you can get from the potentially targeted audience. I think you will find many Jews who would support banning Metsitsa B'peh, but not as many would support laws that somehow illegalized Kosher slaughter while keeping industrial animal processing the same.
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Oct 6, 2015 17:12
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Ban all baby mutilation forever and everywhere, imo.
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Oct 6, 2015 17:13
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Absurd Alhazred posted:In the US there is a "disparate impact" test for policies. If they seem to single out or target certain demographics in practice, they are opposed as if they had been designed to do so. I would say that a policy that seemed to single out Jewish and Muslim practices would be barred under that view. If in practice it was only enforced on Muslims, then that would be even more flagrant. It's a standard used by many American progressives, and coincidentally enough BDS fails this test hard if you consider it valid. BDS also is probably a top target of campus speech codes instituted by progressives. You literally have southern Republicans trying to require driver's licenses for voting here to disenfranchise minorities.
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Oct 6, 2015 23:28
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Kim Jong Il posted:You literally have southern Republicans trying to require driver's licenses for voting here to disenfranchise minorities.
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Oct 6, 2015 23:37
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The Jews (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 7, 2015 02:21
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Another stabbing attack in the old city, a palestinian woman stabbed an Israeli man, the man was armed so he shot her back, seems like he's alright and she's likely gonna die. In Jaffa yesterday there were rather massive protests in which six police officers were injured and some poo poo was set on fire. A settler woman's car was ambushed on the road to jerusalem, a settler that happened to be nearby apparently protected her and shot a palestinian in the process. And other such stuff, things still seem to be very volatile all over the place. Edit: almost forgot, Israelis went out protesting against the government's alleged inaction i/r/t to attacks against settlers, now here's the funny part, some crafty politicians attached themselves to the protests and gave some impassioned speeches in front of Bibi's residence demanding that the government take stronger action in face of the current events. Why is that so funny, you might ask, well, as well know the current government is very much a right wing government, so which politicians exactly are protesting against it? Surely has to be some of these treasonous leftists... well, not really, Likud MKs and Ministers are protesting against their own government, I poo poo you not, Deputy Foreign Minister Tzipi "Jerusalem is for Jews only" Hotobelli went to the protest, worth pointing out that the Foreign Minister is non other than one Mr. Bibi Netanyahu, so yeah, she's protesting against her own minister and she's not the only one, Ministers Katz and Regev also joined the protests... you'd think they'd have some more effective channels to voice their complaints, like picking up a phone and talking to their party's chair-person, but I guess not. Meretz chair-person Zehava Galon called out the absurdity of this whole ordeal on facebook: http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Meretzs-Gal-On-slams-right-wing-politicians-who-joined-protest-in-Jerusalem-420053 Just goes to show that Israeli politics can always become more stupid. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Oct 7, 2015 |
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Oct 7, 2015 11:32
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It's honestly more surprising that we haven't had a 3rd Intifada by now considering how many Palestinians have been killed since the last one, and things have only gotten worse. I guess it's easier when you build a giant wall to stem some violence. But this is absolutely inevitable if nothing changes. The status quo is not tenable.
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Oct 7, 2015 13:53
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Is anybody here actually hoping for it, though? It just has seemed inevitable, it's like when you're waiting for the doctor to tell you that you have cancer, the waiting becomes a horror in itself. It seems like the far-right Israelis and settlers are hoping for it.
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Oct 7, 2015 15:53
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In an 'opposite attract' style twist MK Bezalel Smotrich (Jewish Home) of the "Abominations Parade" fame had this to say: "I don't think we benefit from the security collaboration with Abu Mazen's regime. In the international arena, the PA is a burden and the Hamas is an asset." Keeping the masks on has never been less important to these fellas, I'm sure many an accelerationist are rubbing their hands in anticipation.
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Oct 7, 2015 16:09
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So about an hour ago there was another incident, a palestinian youth from Hebron/al-khalil stabbed a guy in a mall in Petah Tikva, this brings the number of 'incidents' today to four. And who knows how many palestinians were shot and arrested in the west bank. Can we say "Intifada" yet or is it still too early?
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Oct 7, 2015 17:22
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The lack of news coming out of this whole thing is even worse than usual - it's very difficult to get any clear and up-to-date conception of what's going on. Right now, Israeli news is reporting constant "clashes" between the IDF and Palestinian protestors, as well as a large number of random attacks by Palestinians against Israeli settlers. Meanwhile, Arabic and Palestinian news sources are reporting a dramatic uptick and escalation in settler violemce against Palestinians with a number of injuries and deaths caused by unprovoked settler attacks, as well as close cooperation between the IDF and settlers. Most likely both are true, with each violent act from any given side driving even more members of the opposing side to join the violence. This isn't anything as one-sided as an intifada - there's plenty of extremists on the settled side engaging in similar dramatic increases in violence, and honestly, that's the most worrying part of this. Calming down the Palestinians is one thing, but it won't stick unless the government can bring the settlers back in line too, and Netanyahu can't stick his neck out far enough to crack down on them when his political rivals are already using this chaos as an excuse to break out the axes and go for his head. I can't see how Netanyahu can rein in the settlers without either emboldening them further or essentially inviting Bennett to bring down the current government. In terms of recent changes on the ground, Netanyahu has removed the age restrictions on Muslim visitors to al-Aqsa, which were a big part of what set all this off on the first place. It remains to be seen whether it will be effective in quieting the violence, but I suspect it won't be enough - things have escalated too much, and this move is too little, too late. It also pairs poorly with Netanyahu's other significant move to resolve the violence: promising a network of security cameras in the Old City and threatening to crack down on store owners in the Muslim Quarter.
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Oct 7, 2015 17:32
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Regarding people who condemn Palestinians for violence or making inflammatory statements, they're both wrong and correct (but more wrong). It's basically like the following analogy: Some people are wrongly imprisoned for crimes they didn't commit and don't have any realistic options for improving their situation. Physically resisting the guards only makes their situation worse. So technically it's correct to say "They shouldn't resist." But the important thing is the context - What sort of rear end in a top hat, in such a situation, would spend a significant amount of their time and effort condemning the actions of the prisoners? While I might advise Palestinians to not be violent if they asked for advice, it would be far more helpful for me to attack those truly responsible for the situation (and Palestinians are not "responsible" when the Israeli military kills hundreds in response to Palestinian violence; the Israelis are not animals who have no control over their actions and just involuntarily kill people in response to Palestinian violence). Basically, when you force large groups of people into poor conditions, violence will happen. It is dumb and pointless to condemn those people instead of the ones who forced them into that situation in the first place. It is also not a coincidence that the same people who are the most likely to condemn Palestinian violence (or inflammatory speech, as in Kim Jong Il's post about Zoabi being a racist) tend to spend very little effort condemning Israel. While they might admit Israel commits crimes and has problems when prompted, they very rarely choose to condemn Israel on their own (or at least do so far less than they condemn Palestinians or those who support them), and this is very revealing about the fact that they value Israelis more than Palestinians. The whole situation actually reminds me of the people who defend police brutality. While it's unwise for people to be rude to or resist police (and I wouldn't recommend anyone do so), it's ridiculous to condemn them instead of the police - who are in a position of authority and generally have caused far more harm than they received. There's the same victim blaming, "they were no angels" mindset in both situations. For whatever reason - whether racsm or just preference for authority figures - many people tend to give the benefit of the doubt to those with more power and authority.
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Oct 7, 2015 17:46
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Can we say "Intifada" yet or is it still too early? Main Paineframe posted:The lack of news coming out of this whole thing is even worse than usual - it's very difficult to get any clear and up-to-date conception of what's going on. Right now, Israeli news is reporting constant "clashes" between the IDF and Palestinian protestors, as well as a large number of random attacks by Palestinians against Israeli settlers. Meanwhile, Arabic and Palestinian news sources are reporting a dramatic uptick and escalation in settler violemce against Palestinians with a number of injuries and deaths caused by unprovoked settler attacks, as well as close cooperation between the IDF and settlers. Speaking of which, has TIC ever voiced his views on whether Palestinians are real people?
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Oct 7, 2015 18:35
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Cugel the Clever posted:Speaking of which, has TIC ever voiced his views on whether Palestinians are real people? He has refrained from admitting his opinion on the subject, but he has said that Palestinians aren't indigenous. I bet Palestine was an empty stretch of land, devoid of any human population, until the dastardly Arabs heard about Jewish plans to settle the area, and then they swarmed from the remote corners of the Earth just to be a hindrance to brave Jewish settlers.
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Oct 7, 2015 19:34
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TIC is probated for a week, so you have no excuse to cheerlead in his absence, nor to ascribe opinions to him. If you want to know what he's written in this thread, here's what you get from clicking the "?" under his avatar. Otherwise, let's move on, or I'll be forced to dish out additional probations.
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Oct 7, 2015 19:42
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It's something I've been thinking about lately is that if there is no Palestinian identity, that who the gently caress was running around with T.E. Lawrence blowing up Ottoman trains and why did they do that if not for some nationalist identity?
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Oct 7, 2015 20:14
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To fill time until the next stabbing incident: is there any pollster presence in the west bank, and how many polls have been made WRT social issues and secular stances, and how they contrast with the abbas I recall some arguments regarding palestinians as one of the most secular/progressive identities in the middle east (specifically in opposition to an argument of "Israel is a progressive western democracy! Support them over islamic theocracies!), and there's the obvious ISIS parody videos and tolerance of christian palestinians (such as the family-owned brewery), but having hard numbers is always nice.
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Oct 7, 2015 20:54
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Cugel the Clever posted:What's the best spot to get up-to-date news from Palestinian sources? I'm afraid most of my information comes from skimming headlines on JPost and then drive-by trolling the comments section. You'd be amazed at the dozens of rabid extremists that will blow a gasket over the insinuation that anything less than the literal ethnic cleansing of the "Fakestinians" is the best course forward. Ma'an News is something I've just started looking at lately since it has, by far, the best coverage of the ongoing chaos right now, and a lot of other sites have been sourcing reports from them. Palestine News Network also tends to have good coverage of local events in the West Bank, particularly those day-to-day events that don't generally make the news, but its English is often poor and IIRC it tends to avoid criticizing or contradicting the official PA line. Al Jazeera sometimes covers events from the Palestinian perspective, but as an international news site it tends to be broader and more general. On the note of the ongoing chaos, there's been a distressing series of reports of Palestinian children being injured or killed by Israeli soldiers and settlers. Some are known to be true, while others are dubious, but even the dubious ones aren't a good sign because the rumors are going to stir people up whether they're true or not. First of all, the IDF has claimed that the recent shooting of a 13-year-old Palestinian in the chest was an accident, although several contradicting explanations have been issued; one IDF source said they were aiming at someone else and missed, while another said they were aiming at his legs but missed and hit him in the chest instead, and others have suggested that it was a ricochet. Regardless of what exactly happened, it's a serious condemnation of the recent Israel practice of firing live ammunition into crowds of Palestinian protesters. Second, a ten-year-old Palestinian is reportedly in the hospital after settlers allegedly attacked his house, smashing the windows with rocks and hitting the child with one of those rocks. There's no other coverage of it so the accuracy of this report is somewhat unclear, but reporters did manage to confirm with the hospital that the named child was in fact in the hospital with a head injury. A six-year-old Palestinian boy is in critical condition after being shot in the stomach, allegedly in a random drive-by attack by an Israeli settler. An Israeli investigation has reported that the family's story is untrue and that the child was probably shot accidentally by a relative instead. PA investigators appear to agree that the family's story is unlikely, but the original story circulated quite widely before the refutation was issued. A sixteen-year-old Palestinian was reportedly stabbed by a settler, but little detail is given and I can find no corroboration of the event. Some sources have claimed that the eighteen-year-old Palestinian woman who was shot by a settler for allegedly trying to stab him was actually being assaulted by him and shot when she tried to push him away. Personally, I don't find that particularly likely, but the story's circulating in some circles, feeding into anger and extremism and so on. It's one of the more obnoxious parts of the I/P commentary - whenever someone on one side commits a crime or atrocity of any kind, the extremists are on deck to claim that the reports are misleading or fake and that it was really the other side's fault somehow, often due to some inherent cruelty and inhumanity. For example, the Israeli extremists' reaction to the now-infamous arson attack was to claim that it was a false-flag attack and that Palestinians actually burned the house down themselves in order to blame settlers for it. As I said, I'm not listing these out in order to single out Israel for atrocities right now - there have been plenty of Palestinian attacks on Israelis too, which have been covered fairly well. My point is that in addition to the documented oppression and suppression going on right now, there are a lot of tales of atrocities - real or imagined - that are circulating and stoking the fires further. I still think we're looking at something new and different, rather than just another intifada, but this isn't going to die down as easily as I'd hoped.
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Oct 7, 2015 21:16
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Main Paineframe posted:A six-year-old Palestinian boy is in critical condition after being shot in the stomach, allegedly in a random drive-by attack by an Israeli settler. An Israeli investigation has reported that the family's story is untrue and that the child was probably shot accidentally by a relative instead. PA investigators appear to agree that the family's story is unlikely, but the original story circulated quite widely before the refutation was issued. The PA investigation lends credibility to this, but the incident where Israeli security tried to beat a kid into claiming his cousin was killed by relatives for being gay makes me somewhat skeptical of the whole "wacky relatives are killing each other!" approach. Especially since the biggest pattern in these attacks so far have been the fact that most palestinians dont have guns to casually gently caress around with. It doesn't matter too much either way, since theres still enough incidents on both sides for this case to not be vital in the overall picture.
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Oct 7, 2015 21:25
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Main Paineframe posted:Ma'an News is something I've just started looking at lately since it has, by far, the best coverage of the ongoing chaos right now, and a lot of other sites have been sourcing reports from them. Palestine News Network also tends to have good coverage of local events in the West Bank, particularly those day-to-day events that don't generally make the news, but its English is often poor and IIRC it tends to avoid criticizing or contradicting the official PA line. Absurd Alhazred posted:TIC is probated for a week, so you have no excuse to cheerlead in his absence, nor to ascribe opinions to him. If you want to know what he's written in this thread, here's what you get from clicking the "?" under his avatar. Otherwise, let's move on, or I'll be forced to dish out additional probations.
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Oct 7, 2015 22:40
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KomradeX posted:It's something I've been thinking about lately is that if there is no Palestinian identity, that who the gently caress was running around with T.E. Lawrence blowing up Ottoman trains and why did they do that if not for some nationalist identity? Arabs. And the nationalist sentiment in play was pan-Arabism, not Palestinian.
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Oct 7, 2015 23:11
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Ytlaya posted:Basically, when you force large groups of people into poor conditions, violence will happen. It is dumb and pointless to condemn those people instead of the ones who forced them into that situation in the first place. It is also not a coincidence that the same people who are the most likely to condemn Palestinian violence (or inflammatory speech, as in Kim Jong Il's post about Zoabi being a racist) tend to spend very little effort condemning Israel. While they might admit Israel commits crimes and has problems when prompted, they very rarely choose to condemn Israel on their own (or at least do so far less than they condemn Palestinians or those who support them), and this is very revealing about the fact that they value Israelis more than Palestinians. I'll flip this back at you. How many people actually post good and bad things from both sides instead of cherry picking? I sure as poo poo read the gamut of everything out there.
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Oct 8, 2015 01:55
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