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DemeaninDemon posted:The real surprise is we've lived so long as a species. Dinosaurs were around for something like 165 million years. Humans have only been around for only 200,000 and we've hosed up the plant way more than they ever did so give it some time.
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Oct 6, 2015 23:04
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I know it's Salon, but apparently the Oregon shooter's family stockpiled guns for fear that the government would start confiscating guns.
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Oct 6, 2015 23:06
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A Winner is Jew posted:Dinosaurs were around for something like 165 million years. We're one species. Dinosaurs were many.
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Oct 6, 2015 23:08
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DemeaninDemon posted:We're one species. Dinosaurs were many. Well there were more, but we killed them all. Dinosaurs just didn't have the bloodlust required to survive Cythereal posted:I know it's Salon, but apparently the Oregon shooter's family stockpiled guns for fear that the government would start confiscating guns. THANKS OBAMA
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Oct 6, 2015 23:13
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I found a motive for those claiming the US maliciously blew up a hospital on purpose: Secret Muslim Obama is angry that doctors keep sterilizing Muslims under the guise of polio vaccines and other treatments.
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Oct 6, 2015 23:14
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The US Military is Too Incompetent to Fail. Like the argument is literally "well there's a ton of bureaucracy and red tape, so poo poo happens, y'know"
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Oct 6, 2015 23:16
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Interestingly enough, the Sandy Hook truther I know is also anti-vacc and is now vehemently anti-Ben Carson It's really surprising to me that this is an issue that any GOP candidate is wading into because it seems like it's a losing gamble no matter what Radbot posted:The US Military is Too Incompetent to Fail. Too Dumb to Jail
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Oct 6, 2015 23:17
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DeusExMachinima posted:Were our guys with the Afghanis to verify if they were taking fire from the hospital? If not or if everyone on the ground agreed then C2 probably revoked the hospitals protected status based on available information. This doesn't really seem clear. I've seen things saying that special forces were in the area by chance or even working with the Afghan forces in the area or that the bombing was cover to get out special forces guys who were being fired on but if that's true then I don't know why the official line would that Afghani forces called in the strike. The reality is we will probably never know.
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Oct 6, 2015 23:19
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In the case of idiots in the US military, like the case of so many things, the US military is terrible and also better than every other military. At least US personnel as far as I know were never drinking jet fuel as a substitute for alcohol like the Soviets were.
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Oct 6, 2015 23:19
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Radbot posted:The US Military is Too Incompetent to Fail. No, the argument is "there's a ton of bureaucracy so it's probably not the fault of the guys pulling the trigger but one of the assholes above them" vs "us soldiers love killing innocents!"
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Oct 6, 2015 23:21
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duz posted:No, the argument is "there's a ton of bureaucracy so it's probably not the fault of the guys pulling the trigger but one of the assholes above them" vs "us soldiers love killing innocents!" A camera is an rpg meme was made by the us military
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Oct 6, 2015 23:24
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Hooded Reptile posted:A camera is an rpg meme was made by the us military I meant in this specific instance, not in general.
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Oct 6, 2015 23:26
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Fojar38 posted:In the case of idiots in the US military, like the case of so many things, the US military is terrible and also better than every other military. Basically.
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Oct 6, 2015 23:26
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duz posted:No, the argument is "there's a ton of bureaucracy so it's probably not the fault of the guys pulling the trigger but one of the assholes above them" vs "us soldiers love killing innocents!" One of those arguments isn't real and is just the strawman applied to people who aren't making the other argument with the right words.  E: Even euphronious, official thread troop hater, hasn't stated malicious intent, just that he doesn't know what their motives were. People filled in the blanks with whatever they felt made their argument easier which developed into a troop supervillain conspiracy theory. mr. mephistopheles fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Oct 6, 2015 |
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Oct 6, 2015 23:36
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Artificer posted:I wonder why the general never mentioned what happened to those GPS coordinates. Sure the air crews themselves might not have them on hand but you might think that maybe they would be briefed beforehand of areas where they can't shoot into, or the command staffers, if there were any, that are relaying the orders would check. A Winner is Jew posted:This is what I was saying yesterday in that no one at the controller level checked the "don't loving bomb here" list before telling the gunship to fire. Those are the people that should be facing charges IMO, not the gunship crew. A Winner is Jew posted:The gently caress-up(s) I'm seeing is that C2 didn't cross check this against the list of "don't loving bomb this" sites and how long it took for them to relay to the gunship crew to stop after MSF contacted them that they're bombing a loving hospital. The night of the attack, MSF never contacted the aircrew, or anyone else who mattered. Even if they called the direct line to the desk of military attache at the embassy, which I would be surprised if they had (instead of a generic embassy switchboard number), (s)he doesn't have a direct line to tactical aircraft. "I'm being bombed" isn't a helpful description in terms of figuring out which aircraft the fires are coming from, so even if the call went directly to a person at the embassy who knew what to do, they would likely have to run down several lines of communication and back in order to find someone who was in communication with the aircraft and could tell the aircraft to hold fire. I don't want to get too into how CAS aircraft and the AC-130 are employed for obvious OPSEC reasons, but typically aircraft working in support of friendly forces in contact with enemy forces will talk directly to a Joint Terminal Attack Controller (JTAC) on the ground, who will provide targets, direct attacks, and give clearance to fire. In some cases, a JTAC may work with observers who provide information or guidance, but cannot independently authorize attacks. Different levels of control can be exercised depending on the nature of the mission and target. If you really want to read about this, Joint Publication 3-09 spells out the various responsibilities in mind-numbing detail. Assuming that the hospital was attacked by an AC-130 (suggested but yet to be confirmed at this point) the most likely situation would be that the Fire Control Officer, Navigator and one of the Sensor Operators would work together to visually identify the target using the gunship's IR and TV sensors, based on information provided by the JTAC. Past that, it's impossible to speculate without knowing more about the information passed from the JTAC to the crew, but it's possible it was something along the lines of, "the Afghans report they are taking fire from the top floor of the large building in the middle of the walled compound 200m WNW of our position and request air support." follow that camel!! posted:There's lots of AC-130 gun camera footage online. I don't know if they routinely record the video screens the crew are looking at in making firing decisions. But in the case of the MSF hospital, 30 minutes of "why we kept shooting" video would go a long way to explain why they kept shooting for 30 minutes. I'm going to guess you wouldn't see a giant red crescent in the tape, but who knows. Artificer posted:You seriously can't mark on the map/navigation systems of aircraft to say Don't Shoot Here There's a Hospital? Fojar38 posted:At least US personnel as far as I know were never drinking jet fuel as a substitute for alcohol like the Soviets were. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Oct 7, 2015 |
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Oct 6, 2015 23:57
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DemeaninDemon posted:The real surprise is we've lived so long as a species. It's because of our 250,000 year long history, only 12,000 of that have we had towns and leaders and poo poo.
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Oct 7, 2015 00:06
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Thump! posted:Nah, it's a pretty common theme in all militaries throughout the entirety of human history. Hell, I bet Spartans were drawing dicks on the insides of their barracks bathrooms in their downtime.
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Oct 7, 2015 00:34
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Artificer posted:People signing up for careers due to a highly unrealistic view of what they think they will be doing in said career, only to realize that they were wrong too late to back out due to financial responsibilities, fear of unemployment or shame, or some other reasons, is hardly rare. I'm aware of that but I think it speaks to how little human life is valued in our world. People who do evil could always say "No" but they choose not to because they'd rather not face the consequences of saying "No, I won't kill" or "No, I won't torture." Everyone has families, everyone needs money, and to most a random human life, from a different culture and of a different race, is worth way less than all of that. I just don't feel that people should be let off the hook and be able to say "Well, I had to! I was just following orders!" I expect people to take responsibility for whatever choices they make. They might let themselves off the hook but we shouldn't play pretend with them. Huzanko fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Oct 7, 2015 |
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Oct 7, 2015 00:45
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Noam Chomsky posted:I'm aware of that but I think it speaks to how little human life is valued in our world. People who do evil could always say "No" but they choose not to because they'd rather not face the consequences of saying "No, I won't kill" or "No, I won't torture." EDIT: Epic High Five posted:That new thread title Goddrat Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Oct 7, 2015 |
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Oct 7, 2015 00:52
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That new thread title 
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Oct 7, 2015 00:52
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Why the hell is he even running at this point? He's got nothing to offer in the primary and his own state hates him.
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Oct 7, 2015 00:52
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KiteAuraan posted:It's because of our 250,000 year long history, only 12,000 of that have we had towns and leaders and poo poo. Still impressed.
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Oct 7, 2015 00:53
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Sir Tonk posted:Why the hell is he even running at this point? He's got nothing to offer in the primary and his own state hates him. He's outspent all other candidates in Iowa on advertising; I imagine if he doesn't do worth a poo poo there, then all that money will pretty much be the extent of his campaign funding & he'll die a slow, political death.
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Oct 7, 2015 00:57
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He's probably already in deep debt and will never pay it.
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Oct 7, 2015 01:00
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Epic High Five posted:That new thread title There's your motive.
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Oct 7, 2015 01:00
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We can only hope
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Oct 7, 2015 01:02
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greatn posted:He's probably already in deep debt and will never pay it. Yes, his account is called Louisiana.
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Oct 7, 2015 01:05
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Dead Reckoning posted:I'm not really clear on where you're going with this. Do you think any military service outside your nation's borders is immoral, or just Afghanistan in particular? I mean I'm not him but I imagine it has less to do with location and more to do with when hospitals get bombed and children are killed that it becomes immoral.
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Oct 7, 2015 01:18
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how many thread titles will we have gone through by the end of the month
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Oct 7, 2015 01:24
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The US military should help rebuild that hospital probably, they certainly have the money for it.
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Oct 7, 2015 01:25
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Stereotype posted:The US military should help rebuild that hospital probably, they certainly have the money for it. Only this time paint a red bullseye instead of a red crescent on it.
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Oct 7, 2015 01:28
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Wouldn't Kissinger bombing Le Duc Tho count? Or does that not count because Nixon?
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Oct 7, 2015 01:29
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Fried Chicken posted:Ok so you have no idea what you are talking about and are regurgitating GOP talks points rather than any accurate reflection of reality. Cool. gently caress off now  This sure is a fun cop out for people to resort to in DnD. Here's a documentary on it from known Breitbart affiliate PBS if you're interested in learning something. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/rise-of-isis/
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Oct 7, 2015 01:33
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They might have accidentally blown up a charity hospital, but they aren't evil. They were just a bit sloppy with checking the location they were ordering an air strike. It's a bad system, mea culpa, we'll maybe be more careful next time and kill fewer doctors. What a world.
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Oct 7, 2015 01:34
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ComradeCosmobot posted:Wouldn't Kissinger bombing Le Duc Tho count? Or does that not count because Nixon? Kissinger got his peace prize after we stopped bombing Vietnam.
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Oct 7, 2015 01:35
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Ditocoaf posted:They might have accidentally blown up a charity hospital, but they aren't evil. They were just a bit sloppy with checking the location they were ordering an air strike. It's a bad system, mea culpa, we'll maybe be more careful next time and kill fewer doctors. For real. What's that famous quote about the cackling, movie-villain intentionality of evil?
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Oct 7, 2015 01:37
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Ditocoaf posted:They might have accidentally blown up a charity hospital, but they aren't evil. They were just a bit sloppy with checking the location they were ordering an air strike. It's a bad system, mea culpa, we'll maybe be more careful next time and kill fewer doctors. It's better than the Taliban who blew up charity hospitals as a matter of policy.
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Oct 7, 2015 01:38
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edit: eh, forget it, not my best post.
Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Oct 7, 2015 |
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Oct 7, 2015 01:39
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Stereotype posted:It's better than the Taliban who blew up charity hospitals as a matter of policy. no its really not
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Oct 7, 2015 01:44
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Dead Reckoning posted:I guess I'm going to have to keep saying this, but the No Strike List is generated at the Air Operations Center. It is not something aircrew or JTACs (the people on the ground who call in airstrikes) keep in their pockets. It is meant to keep operations planners from planning attacks against prohibited targets. Whether the aircrew and JTAC had the hospital marked on their maps of the area would be a question for the investigation. If it wasn't marked, the question would be where it fell out of the system between whoever MSF called to say they were running a hospital (I doubt they called the Special Operations mission planning cell or COAC Plans Division targeting cell) and the maps given to the forces for the mission. In MSF doctrine and practice they liaise with local, direct combatants. They rather famously don't gently caress around with embassy desks. I don't doubt that they contacted SOC or COAC. I expect that they did. Granted, they probably didn't know how to contact the JTAC, but seriously, how the gently caress would they? On second thought, they could have, because they are good at making friends with people who aren't suppose to have friends. But that didn't happen in this case. I'm also find the MSF reports of the attack very troubling. http://www.msf.org/topics/kunduz-hospital-airstrike#GPS A specific building, their ER/ICU center, within their compound, was attacked. Exclusively. All other structures were undamaged. There are a couple of assumptions here. That MSF is being truthful in that only one building within their compound was attacked. And that they accurately communicated their position to the relevant command and control centers. I cannot doubt these assumptions. It is notable that since MSF's founding in 1971 and operations in the most violent and plague-ridden areas in the world, this attack caused more casualties than in their entire previous history. Their safety procedures are the most comprehensive and effective of any organization. Period. I've thought long and hard about this. The basic, publicly available doctrine about CAS and AC-130 operations only allows scenarios that put this on the USAF. That the gunners, the C2, or both, were criminally reckless and committed a war crime. And I loving hate it.
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Oct 7, 2015 01:45
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