|
comes along bort posted:the federal work study program has been a thing for like half a century Good point. While her "10 hours a week" obviously came from out of nowhere, it wasn't even an original idea, but a rehashing of a failed program that doesn't address skyrocketing tuition costs at all.
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 16:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 04:41 |
|
|
NotWearingPants posted:No, this is a major point. For Hillary to compare her situation of working through college to what students face to today is completely out of touch and insulting. I'm really not sure how it's insulting to point out that the experience of her generation is no longer applicable? She literally articulated the problem with tuition hikes and student loans and people are acting as if she had said exactly what she was arguing against.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 16:44
|
|
|
Hodgepodge posted:I'm really not sure how it's insulting to point out that the experience of her generation is no longer applicable? Did anyone need the problem articulated? The problem is her solution is more of the same: throw some grants at lower income people and continue to milk the gently caress out of everybody else.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 16:55
|
|
|
NotWearingPants posted:Did anyone need the problem articulated? Yes, actually, that's kind of what stating your position on something that concerns a portion of your coalition to the country as a whole in a national debate is. Attack her solutions by all means, but don't go "you didn't build that" x 2 by pretending she said the opposite of what she did. e: Like imagine if Bernie said "America's problem with race is the result of white supremacy" and then people attacked him for saying that the problem was economics.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:03
|
|
|
NotWearingPants posted:No, this is a major point. For Hillary to compare her situation of working through college to what students face to today is completely out of touch and insulting. The 10 hours a week thing is about all the costs of going to college: when tuition's free, you still need to be able to afford to live there or afford to commute, you still need to be able to afford books, you still need to be able to afford to eat whether a school meal plan or buying and cooking on your own. Just the free tuition doesn't get you there, with today's gouging costs for all that stuff. She wants you to be able to afford the whole college thing on what would now be about $72.50 a week, under $3600 a year. This is incidentally about the amount people tend to have to pay for everything outside of (free) tuition during a year in university in many saner countries.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:10
|
|
|
Here is what Clinton said:quote:But I do believe -- and maybe it's because I worked when I went through college; I worked when I went through law school -- I think it's important for everybody to have some part of getting this accomplished. That's why I call it a compact. Here is what you said: Hodgepodge posted:I'm really not sure how it's insulting to point out that the experience of her generation is no longer applicable? Where exactly did she "point out that the experience of her generation is no longer applicable"? I take her words as the opposite: I worked during college so everybody else should have to as well. She literally pointed out that she worked in college and then said students should have to work 10 hours a week. She is expressing the opinion that her experience is still applicable today.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:11
|
|
|
She's also saying no free tuition at public universities for rich kids as her daughter attended a private university
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:12
|
|
|
Nonsense posted:She's also saying no free tuition at public universities for rich kids as her daughter attended a private university A non-issue to cloud the discussion. Rich people aren't going to send their kids to public universities with the poors when they can afford private colleges.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:13
|
|
|
NotWearingPants posted:No, this is a major point. For Hillary to compare her situation of working through college to what students face to today is completely out of touch and insulting. She said that it should be that way now, not that it was. I don't have a problem with the idea of working 10 hours a week to support whatever college you're attending.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:14
|
|
|
Most polished: Hillary Most energy: O'Malley Most "honest": Sanders Most amiable: O'Malley? No one really did well here. Clinton beat expectations. Best line: Sanders Most bloodthirsty: Webb Most non-answers: Hillary Worst answer: The Chafe Debate winner: eh Strategic winner: Hillary
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:14
|
|
|
Vox Nihili posted:Most energy: O'Malley lol.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:20
|
|
|
I didn't think Clinton really debated all that well but then again I was watching it on campus so Bernie got massive cheers after everything he said, also I was drunk.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:21
|
|
|
All Sanders had to do was come off as a reasonable choice for president, and he crushed it. Nobody likes anyone on the Republican side, and Clinton has high unfavorables. Yesterday Sanders proved if and when Hillary falls, he's the right pick for the job.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:22
|
|
|
Pseudo-objective breakdown: http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/first-democratic-debate-hillary-clinton/ (Hillary fans will be mad, then happy, then mad again.)
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:23
|
|
|
tabloid
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:24
|
|
|
Pick posted:She said that it should be that way now, not that it was. I don't have a problem with the idea of working 10 hours a week to support whatever college you're attending. How does it help solve the problem? Sure, students working at the university may enable them to fire a few low wage workers, but I doubt it's going to have an appreciable effect on operating costs. That's less study time for students and creates a two tier class structure within the university that I wouldn't consider beneficial. These quibbles of mine aren't dealbreakers. I understand why you don't have a problem with it. But if you are going to propose something like that, shouldn't there be more reason and purpose behind it than some Randian belief that people need skin in the game to motivate them? Show me a study that says students have better outcomes when they work ten hours a week while attending college and then you have a point. Otherwise you are just talking bullshit to appease people who hate government spending. *when I use "you" there I am not referring to you in particular
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:40
|
|
|
Vox Nihili posted:Pseudo-objective breakdown: http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/first-democratic-debate-hillary-clinton/ I think this analysis is pretty much what was expected. Hillary was expected to hold her own as the front runner, which she did. Sanders only had to introduce himself to the rest of America. The next debate will start to draw the main contrasts between the two.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:40
|
|
|
I expect Jim Webb to hold on, blaming his poor performance on CNN. I expect his whining to be twice as annoying next time.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:42
|
|
|
NotWearingPants posted:Show me a study that says students have better outcomes when they work ten hours a week while attending college and then you have a point. Otherwise you are just talking bullshit to appease people who hate government spending. Apparently people really get angry when they think someone is getting something for free that they had to pay for. Making students work 10 hours is literally meaningless and only a detriment to the students who have to do that work, but for some reason Hillary and Pick seem to be okay with it. Maybe they think Americans are convinced that a student must earn the right to education. Those Americans would be wrong.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:44
|
|
|
Philip Rivers posted:I didn't think Clinton really debated all that well but then again I was watching it on campus so Bernie got massive cheers after everything he said, also I was drunk. she did great in the sense that she spoke clearly and confidently and dodged a shitload of questions without seeming like she was dodging them, like if you ignore substance and look at who looked/talked the best then she destroyed everyone, which is relevant because it's probably the most important aspect in politics Atoramos posted:All Sanders had to do was come off as a reasonable choice for president, and he crushed it. Nobody likes anyone on the Republican side, and Clinton has high unfavorables. Yesterday Sanders proved if and when Hillary falls, he's the right pick for the job. I am all-in on sanders and I think he came off way too crazy grandpa to say anything like that to take sanders seriously you really have to look past his appearance and speaking style and really listen to and absorb what he's saying and I think that is a lot to expect from a general electorate that unanimously declared mitt romney the winner of a debate where he literally said nothing but "I'm going to do everything he said but better" while looking really presidential
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:44
|
|
|
CheeseSpawn posted:I think this analysis is pretty much what was expected. Hillary was expected to hold her own as the front runner, which she did. Sanders only had to introduce himself to the rest of America. The next debate will start to draw the main contrasts between the two. Pretty much, like he said it's stupid to call this a 'comeback' because, ya know, the person in front by a mile can't 'come back'. She did well but had some poo poo answers that will bother some still, Bernie just had to say 'hi I'm Bernie Sanders' and he achieved his goals. It's gonna be the later ones where people really start looking for differences.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:45
|
|
|
NotWearingPants posted:A non-issue to cloud the discussion. Rich people aren't going to send their kids to public universities with the poors when they can afford private colleges. They do all the time though? They don't send them to the 3rd string state colleges in places like Nebraska, but in major state the public universities get quite respectable and a lotta rich kids. NotWearingPants posted:How does it help solve the problem? Sure, students working at the university may enable them to fire a few low wage workers, but I doubt it's going to have an appreciable effect on operating costs. Hey buddy, there's more costs to college than just your tuition. The intent of the 10 hours a week is that it pays for everything else - about $3600 a year should be able to cover your books, your housing, your food, your anything else needed to stay at college. Everybody else is talking about just making it no tuition as if that'll mean poor people can afford the rest of the costs. Saying that 10 hours a week should be able to afford the rest is taking aim at how high all those other costs have risen - I worked semester beginnings at a college bookstore the past two years, we would have some kids need to spend a whole $1000 on books and associated materials for some class schedules (of course others only need to spend $100 or less, but it's not like that makes the $1000 needs ok). And that was only for one semester!
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:45
|
|
|
Deadulus posted:O'Mailey did best of the bottom three but he felt kind of sleazy. He tried to make a lot of emotional appeals that came off fake. Yeah, that's basically O'Malley. Guy really wants to do good, he just has a natural used car salesman vibe to him.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:46
|
|
|
Tatum Girlparts posted:Pretty much, like he said it's stupid to call this a 'comeback' because, ya know, the person in front by a mile can't 'come back'. She did well but had some poo poo answers that will bother some still, Bernie just had to say 'hi I'm Bernie Sanders' and he achieved his goals. It's gonna be the later ones where people really start looking for differences. Your post reminded me of the introductions. Everyone told their "story" except Bernie who just launched right into his stump speech. It was loving great.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:48
|
|
|
Yea I'm not sure you guys understand that 'public university' means more than some bottom rank school in bumblefuck Alababama. Like, UT is a 'public university' and lol if you don't think 'rich people' send their kids there? It's kinda a valid thing to say the nebulous concept of 'free college' will help the people who don't need it
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:48
|
|
|
AlternateNu posted:Yeah, that's basically O'Malley. Guy really wants to do good, he just has a natural used car salesman vibe to him. Also he sounds like a milquetoast. That isn't going to work in this country.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:50
|
|
|
Tatum Girlparts posted:Yea I'm not sure you guys understand that 'public university' means more than some bottom rank school in bumblefuck Alababama. Like, UT is a 'public university' and lol if you don't think 'rich people' send their kids there? It's kinda a valid thing to say the nebulous concept of 'free college' will help the people who don't need it UT Austin was at one point 70% subsidized by the state of Texas. Shut up.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:50
|
|
|
NotWearingPants posted:Your post reminded me of the introductions. Everyone told their "story" except Bernie who just launched right into his stump speech. It was loving great. I honestly thought that was a mistake. Like ya going full Webb and listing grandchildren would be dumb but going right to "I'm bernie sanders here's the problems with America" probably didn't play super well except to his supporters who already agreed. People want some level of personal touch with the candidates, and launching right into, like you said, a stump speech is offputting. I mean, it's hardly the death cry of his campaign to not do an opening statement well, but I kinda do think it's a good example of Bernie's core issue, he's very good at rallying up the people who agree with him but he's very bad at appealing to anyone else.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:51
|
|
|
Tatum Girlparts posted:Yea I'm not sure you guys understand that 'public university' means more than some bottom rank school in bumblefuck Alababama. Like, UT is a 'public university' and lol if you don't think 'rich people' send their kids there? It's kinda a valid thing to say the nebulous concept of 'free college' will help the people who don't need it It's hard to define because the state university systems vary so much, but you are correct. That said, I have no problem with rich people getting free tuition. They pay their taxes. Like Social Security, programs like this are better when they include everyone. Otherwise it gets classified as a handout to the poor and is less popular. This is why republicans like the idea of means testing social security benefits to "save it" when what they really want to do is remove the rich from the benefit list so it becomes a handout they can attack.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:55
|
|
|
I'm generally of the opinion Clinton won overall, but this is a good Vox take on why that could be wrong and I thought these points in particular are accurate: quote:3) Sanders has risen to second place in primary polls by repeating a few basic themes: He wants to challenge the power of the wealthy, to take on Wall Street and corporations, and to make America more like the social democratic Nordic countries. He hit those themes hard, and clearly, throughout the debate — in political parlance, he was "on message." edit: also, viewership at 15.3 million. This is short of the Trump-ified GOP debates but that's still really high
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:55
|
|
|
Free tuition and subsidies for the rest for those that need it. loving duh.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 17:57
|
|
|
The Landstander posted:I'm generally of the opinion Clinton won overall, but this is a good Vox take on why that could be wrong and I thought these points in particular are accurate: #4 is why I would disagree with Tatum Girlparts' post above yours. It's new to the people that haven't been following things. I think would think that many of these new viewers would be captivated by Sander's focus on the issues the way his supporters have been. And if they're not? Then there's not much to be done because that's who Bernie is and he's not going to change.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 18:01
|
|
|
Sephiroth_IRA posted:Free tuition and subsidies for the rest for those that need it. Nope, free tuition for everybody and if that leaves some people with extra money in their bank accounts to spend in our capitalist economy then that's just something we are going to have to live with.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 18:02
|
|
|
NotWearingPants posted:Nope, free tuition for everybody and if that leaves some people with extra money in their bank accounts to spend in our capitalist economy then that's just something we are going to have to live with. If only there were some other mechanism in society by which the wealthy might pay their fair share.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 18:05
|
|
|
I know it's new to the people who aren't politics nerds like us, but I still think it's better to introduce those ideas in the 'meat' of the debate and use your opening and closer as your chance to make a personal connection. It's not like those topics he listed didn't come up. Personality is a pretty important thing to voters and 'dude who instantly starts yelling about problems' doesn't win over people. I mean, Bernie IS a cool dude, he's a humble old grandpa who walks to work because he doesn't want money wasted on transport for him and poo poo. That's a solid thing to say for the fluffier 'hey America this is who I am' bits, people like those stories a lot.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 18:05
|
|
|
zen death robot posted:Free college is nice and all but holy poo poo there are a lot of problems with K-12 that should be addressed. preach on brother
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 18:07
|
|
|
zen death robot posted:Free college is nice and all but holy poo poo there are a lot of problems with K-12 that should be addressed. Actually I fully believe free college will be second to healthcare, and agree with some of your earlier points that it is more pressing. K-12 issues while huge I have no knowledge of problems beyond anecdotes of my own public education.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 18:07
|
|
|
free reeducation for rich people, in the camps
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 18:07
|
|
|
NotWearingPants posted:Nope, free tuition for everybody and if that leaves some people with extra money in their bank accounts to spend in our capitalist economy then that's just something we are going to have to live with. Oh yeah I agree. I just meant people that can't afford some of the additional costs of college should get help, just like we help kids that can't afford lunch at public school.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 18:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 04:41 |
|
|
Sephiroth_IRA posted:Oh yeah I agree. I just meant people that can't afford some of the additional costs of college should get help, just like we help kids that can't afford lunch at public school. School food is one of those K-12 issues we should be discussing. There's some hideous poor-shaming practices in place at a lot of public schools for kids who can't afford what ought to be free.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 18:10
|
|