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Fat Samurai posted:The latest policies have made the news in Spain, but only the part about putting soldiers on the streets to keep peace. No mention of keeping the bodies of killed Arabs or demolishing their families' home. It seems an important part to mention. Yeah same elsewhere. The news on Israel has only and exclusively been about those angry Palestinians stabbing innocent Jews. Not one peep on the lynch mobs, radio silence on the shooting of protesters, complete omission about that Jews who was stabbed by another Jew who thought he was an Arab; and as far as Israel's measures go the reports have only been on having more soldiers and checkpoints, the whole house demolition and corpse hoarding is not something they will ever report on.
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Oct 15, 2015 17:14
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Fat Samurai posted:I imagine this is the main reason, I just can't understand that a reporter decides to focus on using military as peacekeepers and ignores the other policies, so I thought I'd ask. As an Israeli who's been hearing this "the foreign media just doesn't understaaaand" canard since my 1980's childhood (  ), I'd say I don't think those PR campaigns are nearly as influential as people think. What's a lot more influential is people's propensity to detecting bias in coverage that doesn't cater to issues they feel strongly about.
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Oct 15, 2015 17:14
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Absurd Alhazred posted:This is yet another spurious and unhelpful Nazi comparison, which again, I'm not probating people over, but we've had this discussion upthread months ago. I'm sure you can find regimes, even in that area, with similar policies, to shame Israelis by comparing them with. This reminds me a lot more of what I've read and watched of the French occupation in Algeria than it does of the Nazis (hints: they unabashedly mass-murdered people and didn't put the wounded in their own hospitals other than to experiment on them). Yea if you guys wanna make cool edgelord comparisons Israel's playbook is basically the same as imperialist France's with a bit of Belgium thrown in for that good rich flavor. Crazy enough there were more lovely war powers in history than The Actual Nazis.
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Oct 15, 2015 17:17
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It's effective enough here in the US, which is probably the one country where Israel *has* to maintain a positive public opinion. As posted earlier, the media coverage on the right has headlines like the Wall Street Journal's calling the Palestinians psychopaths. On the left it's mostly ignored.
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Oct 15, 2015 17:26
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Lum_ posted:It's effective enough here in the US, which is probably the one country where Israel *has* to maintain a positive public opinion. As posted earlier, the media coverage on the right has headlines like the Wall Street Journal's calling the Palestinians psychopaths. On the left it's mostly ignored. It's not going to work with either most Jews and especially not with Christian Zionists, the interest groups most in need of changing their support in a way that would change US policy in that regard. It probably would work with, I don't know, rabid pro-Palestinians of the type mainstream BDS organizers would disavow, and literal Neo Nazis, but they're not a significant constituency.
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Oct 15, 2015 17:34
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Absurd Alhazred posted:This is yet another spurious and unhelpful Nazi comparison, which again, I'm not probating people over, but we've had this discussion upthread months ago. I'm sure you can find regimes, even in that area, with similar policies, to shame Israelis by comparing them with. This reminds me a lot more of what I've read and watched of the French occupation in Algeria than it does of the Nazis (hints: they unabashedly mass-murdered people and didn't put the wounded in their own hospitals other than to experiment on them). Nazi comparisons are entirely counterproductive. Regarding your last point though, there are turning out to be fewer wounded to survive as press opportunities for Israel. I wish the people who were gunned down and left to die or shot several times after they were no threat got more coverage.
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Oct 15, 2015 17:36
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Nazi comparisons are entirely counterproductive. Regarding your last point though, there are turning out to be fewer wounded to survive as press opportunities for Israel. I wish the people who were gunned down and left to die or shot several times after they were no threat got more coverage. How much sympathy would the latter garner to the uninterested? It's obvious to me why it's wrong to shoot down someone who no longer poses a threat even if they'd committed a violent crime (if only because of the risk of killing the wrong person, irrespective of there being no official death penalty for pretty much any crime in Israel), but I could see most people looking at that and saying "oh, well, that's what happens to terrorists, shouldn't have cut people".
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Oct 15, 2015 17:41
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CommieGIR posted:I believe we've gone full circle: That's not fair, I'm not sure if Bibi likes any stupid children's stories
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Oct 15, 2015 17:42
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Absurd Alhazred posted:How much sympathy would the latter garner to the uninterested? It's obvious to me why it's wrong to shoot down someone who no longer poses a threat even if they'd committed a violent crime (if only because of the risk of killing the wrong person, irrespective of there being no official death penalty for pretty much any crime in Israel), but I could see most people looking at that and saying "oh, well, that's what happens to terrorists, shouldn't have cut people". Because the extrajudicial execution of criminals is not something a civilised society does. You may feel that others' reactions to that will be 'lol whatever, terrorist died' but if you're not getting that this is happening then all you'll ever see is 'Jewish guy got stabbed, dirty Arab 'neutralised'. It's part of a fabric of underreporting of incidents that dehumanises Palestinians, particularly in the US. The recent chain of events only began as far back as the firs Jewish person got shot. Anything before that and after the last major chain is just filler.
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Oct 15, 2015 17:50
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Lum_ posted:It's effective enough here in the US, which is probably the one country where Israel *has* to maintain a positive public opinion. As posted earlier, the media coverage on the right has headlines like the Wall Street Journal's calling the Palestinians psychopaths. On the left it's mostly ignored. As someone who is opposed to occupation, and who thinks the establishment of the state of Israel was a mistake, comparisons to the Nazis strike me as both absurd and offensive, and are a real quick way to make me think you don't know what you are talking about. If you think they are effective rhetoric, you need to get out of your bubble.
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Oct 15, 2015 17:53
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A much better comparison is 19th-Century America. The part where they keep negotiating to stall for time, never stick to the treaties they signed, get angry whenever someone poinbts out the terrible way they treat the natives, etc. is super similar.
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Oct 15, 2015 18:10
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Because the extrajudicial execution of criminals is not something a civilised society does. You may feel that others' reactions to that will be 'lol whatever, terrorist died' but if you're not getting that this is happening then all you'll ever see is 'Jewish guy got stabbed, dirty Arab 'neutralised'. It's part of a fabric of underreporting of incidents that dehumanises Palestinians, particularly in the US. The recent chain of events only began as far back as the firs Jewish person got shot. Anything before that and after the last major chain is just filler. How civilized are the US and the UK? They've both passed laws differentiating terrorism from other crimes and loosening due process. Hell, they've both extrajudicially targeted their own citizens (the Al-Awlakis in Yemen by the US, and more recently by the UK in Syria), and the outrage has stayed very much left of center. I think you're missing the forest for the trees here. The coverage is never going to look good to you (or me) in this aspect because it has become long accepted in civilized societies that terrorists are more akin to enemy combatants than to criminals, except they are nefarious enemy combatants to whom the Geneva Protocols don't apply because they don't play by the rules, and therefore there is not going to be outrage at terrorists having their rights violated, up to and including getting killed while they are unarmed and disabled. I think maybe getting more coverage of the kid's gloves that Jewish terrorists are treated with might help, but it may well result in asking why the destruction of homes and kidnapping of bodies isn't extended to the likes of Schlissel as well.
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Oct 15, 2015 18:14
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Fat Samurai posted:I imagine this is the main reason, I just can't understand that a reporter decides to focus on using military as peacekeepers and ignores the other policies, so I thought I'd ask. He may not have noticed. Soldiers in every bus, train, and city center are a much more visible policy than refusing to return dead bodies, and it's likely being emphasized much more in the local Israeli press since the main point of the massive security deployments are to restore public confidence and morale. Hong XiuQuan posted:Because the extrajudicial execution of criminals is not something a civilised society does. You may feel that others' reactions to that will be 'lol whatever, terrorist died' but if you're not getting that this is happening then all you'll ever see is 'Jewish guy got stabbed, dirty Arab 'neutralised'. It's part of a fabric of by underreporting of incidents that dehumanises Palestinians, particularly in the US. The recent chain of events only began as far back as the firs Jewish person got shot. Anything before that and after the last major chain is just filler. I'm not sure people in the US will find extrajudicial execution of criminals to be as objectionable as you're hoping. There's been some positively vile rhetoric flowing around considering what should be done with injured attackers, but honestly most of it seems like it would be right at home in good old  - after all, a civilized society isn't supposed to torture detainees either. The only aspect that seems like it would be even slightly out of place in the US is the heated rabbinical debate on whether or not murdering injured, helpless attackers is religiously permissible.
Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Oct 15, 2015 |
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Oct 15, 2015 19:13
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I think family home demolitions and body snatching would be pretty bad optics to centrist types. You can skip the whole killing neutralized attackers and this still looks reaaaally bad.
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Oct 15, 2015 19:39
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Having soldiers running around scared everywhere with itchy trigger fingers is going to be really bad for tourism, if the random knife attacks weren't doing it. Edit: here's an example of the alleged bias pro-Israelis have been complaining about, by the way: 
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Oct 15, 2015 |
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Oct 15, 2015 19:44
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CommieGIR posted:Light the match. Let them burn What an interesting and constructive contribution to the discussion. Can you clarify who "they" are?
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Oct 15, 2015 21:53
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Having soldiers running around scared everywhere with itchy trigger fingers is going to be really bad for tourism, if the random knife attacks weren't doing it. I didn't know the Palestinians had managed to stab over 3000 Israeli during the weekend. They're right, there is a big bias here.
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Oct 15, 2015 22:14
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The Insect Court posted:What an interesting and constructive contribution to the discussion. What are your opinions on the latest measure re: familial home demolishing and keeping corpses? I am interested in your perspective.
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Oct 15, 2015 22:58
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Cat Mattress posted:I didn't know the Palestinians had managed to stab over 3000 Israeli during the weekend. They're right, there is a big bias here. The Saudi terrorists killed themselves. They hadn't landed the planes, given themselves up and then been shot 30 times while their hands were in the air. On video. There also weren't simultaneous instances of Saudis being executed at random, irrespective of age, while protesting on planes.
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Oct 16, 2015 00:15
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i see mre r
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Oct 16, 2015 05:11
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XMNN posted:The body snatching will probably lead to some ugly blood libel stuff. Yeah, I had the same thought. Although it's not as if there's a shortage of wild charges and fantastic conspiracy theories that aren't already circulating. The NYT had a good piece on some of the ways these sorts of stories are propagating through social media and serving to inflame tensions. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/16/world/middleeast/conflicting-accounts-of-jerusalem-strife-surround-a-wounded-arab-boy.html?_r=0 quote:As the images spread on social media, however, so did misinformation — with many captions asserting, incorrectly, that the boy had been shot and killed, either by an Israeli soldier or a settler.
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Oct 16, 2015 06:34
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How you feel about the measures themselves? It odd that you seem more concerned with people getting pissed over collective punishment and forced homelessness without due process rather than being pissed Israel is doing something so utterly vile as public policy in the first place.
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Oct 16, 2015 07:29
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Joseph's Tomb in Nablus just got torched by Palestinians. Hoo boy.
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Oct 16, 2015 10:19
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Wouldn't that tomb also be holy to Muslims?
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Oct 16, 2015 11:20
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hypnorotic posted:Wouldn't that tomb also be holy to Muslims? I think desperation would be an apt explanation..
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Oct 16, 2015 12:05
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hypnorotic posted:Wouldn't that tomb also be holy to Muslims? It was Jewish-only (because Israel is an apartheid state) up to 2000 at the least, which soured feelings on it. Not the first time it has been burnt either.
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Oct 16, 2015 13:15
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DarkCrawler posted:It was Jewish-only (because Israel is an apartheid state) up to 2000 at the least, which soured feelings on it. Not the first time it has been burnt either. Feeling has been among some that if Jewish settlers going to claim it then better it goes. It's stupid.
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Oct 16, 2015 13:47
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I'm no expert in Islam but don't Muslims believe all of the Jewish prophets to also be Muslim prophets? I can understand if they don't accept that site as legitimate or whatever, or if they thought its existence to be idolatrous, but attacking it seems to be a cut off your nose to spite your face kind of thing.
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Oct 16, 2015 14:34
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hypnorotic posted:Wouldn't that tomb also be holy to Muslims? Seems so, since Abbas felt safe enough to intervene, resulting in what is probably the first major PA action in two weeks: by all accounts, PA authorities are the ones that put out the flames and drove off the rioters, the PA is opening an investigation into the event, and Abbas has personally condemned the attack and "ordered" immediate repairs to the site. It may well have been accidental, since rioters were chucking Molotov cocktails all over the place, but both the PA and IDF benefit more from calling it an intentional act. Speaking of "holy", and of "disrespect for the dead", a video of a settler who witnessed a stabbing attack placing pork on the body of the dead Palestinian attacker appears to have gone viral. I'm sure this act of intentional disrespect in an attempt to religiously defile a dead body will be super popular among Palestinians, especially since it comes just a day after Israel announced that it would bury attackers' bodies themselves rather than returning the bodies to their families. Meanwhile, a number of Israelis somehow managed to find an even less appropriate place to riot - on board a passenger plane. Fortunately for everyone involved, it was still on the ground at the time. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4712053,00.html quote:'I won't have Czechs flying me'
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Oct 16, 2015 14:36
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Main Paineframe posted:Seems so, since Abbas felt safe enough to intervene, resulting in what is probably the first major PA action in two weeks: by all accounts, PA authorities are the ones that put out the flames and drove off the rioters, the PA is opening an investigation into the event, and Abbas has personally condemned the attack and "ordered" immediate repairs to the site. It may well have been accidental, since rioters were chucking Molotov cocktails all over the place, but both the PA and IDF benefit more from calling it an intentional act.  Holy crap guys, get your act together.
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Oct 16, 2015 14:48
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Main Paineframe posted:Speaking of "holy", and of "disrespect for the dead", a video of a settler who witnessed a stabbing attack placing pork on the body of the dead Palestinian attacker appears to have gone viral. I'm sure this act of intentional disrespect in an attempt to religiously defile a dead body will be super popular among Palestinians, especially since it comes just a day after Israel announced that it would bury attackers' bodies themselves rather than returning the bodies to their families. I wish people would learn that while it's pretty loving offensive and makes you a terrible human being for you do poo poo like that, aside from being a settler scumbag in the first place, a Muslim could be buried by a non-Muslim with a pig cock in his rear end and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. Feel free to let anyone you see claiming bollocks like this know that a Muslim can even eat pork if he/she needs to. http://quran.com/2/173 Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Oct 16, 2015 |
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Oct 16, 2015 14:53
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Sooooo many racist Twitter posts about the burning of that Tomb.
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Oct 16, 2015 15:06
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After listening to NPR I have learned that the only thing Arabs understand is violence and that Israelis are a people under siege that don't understand why this is happening.
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Oct 16, 2015 15:19
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Main Paineframe posted:
Doesn't the Q'uran specifically say if someone forces it upon you, it doesn't count?
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Oct 16, 2015 15:30
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It literally doesn't matter at all if technically according to Islam this doesn't actually defile a Muslim. The fact is that the perpetrator of something like this believes it does is the only important thing. Don't get me wrong, at least there's some small comfort there but it's the hatred motivating these acts that is the point. edit: Wow, official ratcheting up of paranoia has unforseen consequences? Who would have thought it? This is just sad 
NLJP fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Oct 16, 2015 |
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Oct 16, 2015 15:42
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Top Hats Monthly posted:Doesn't the Q'uran specifically say if someone forces it upon you, it doesn't count? It's more that Islamically you are responsible for your actions (and intent goes a long way) so if someone was to rape your corpse after death, for example, it wouldn't mean you're suddenly hellbound. What the Quran does say specifically is that if by necessity you need to consume it (not just pork but blood etc) then you can so long as it's a necessity and you don't gorge yourself on it. Now, there's been some scholarly debate on what essentially is a necessity, eg with regards to pig gelatin medicine capsules or even debating that pig gelatin in sweets is OK because of the chemical processes. I also tend towards pig organ transplants etc being useful.
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Oct 16, 2015 15:43
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NLJP posted:Wow, official ratcheting up of paranoia has unforseen consequences? Who would have thought it? This is just sad Not even sure it's paranoia there. Smells to me like it might be racism? When I pay to fly Israeli, I want to fly Israeli (read:'I only want Jewish pilots').
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Oct 16, 2015 15:46
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fits my needs posted:After listening to NPR I have learned that the only thing Arabs understand is violence and that Israelis are a people under siege that don't understand why this is happening. NPR has gone to absolute poo poo the last several years. More corny stories about faith and religion, multi-hour blocks of Marketplace, and as you found out a penchant for toeing the same line wrt I/P as the corporate media establishment.
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Oct 16, 2015 15:56
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Poor Ayman Mohyeldin. One of the best TV reporters on the conflict and he's getting attacked all over for a pretty minor mistake.
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Oct 16, 2015 16:13
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Hong XiuQuan posted:I wish people would learn that while it's pretty loving offensive and makes you a terrible human being for you do poo poo like that, aside from being a settler scumbag in the first place, a Muslim could be buried by a non-Muslim with a pig cock in his rear end and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. I don't even get this because it's not like Jews don't also have the 'well yea no poo poo if someone somehow forces you to break kosher or you're starving and for some reason literally all you have is a porkchop in lobster sauce, yea God understands intent is a part of it'. I guess I get the bullshit "JESUS WANTS US TO BUY PORK LUBED BULLETS" stuff because they don't have similar dietary stuff but this should kinda be a 'so, you're just being a terrible person trying to somehow shame a corpse' thing!
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Oct 16, 2015 16:27
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