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Where'd they even get the pork? How common is pork in I/P if neither side's religion allows it?
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Oct 16, 2015 17:29
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It's pork not heroin
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Oct 16, 2015 17:29
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snyprmag posted:Where'd they even get the pork? How common is pork in I/P if neither side's religion allows it? There are a lot of secular Jews in Israel and plenty of Palestinians are Christian and have no dietary restrictions against pork(and there are of course secular Muslims in Palestine.) In fact, isn't pork considered something of a (silly but) hot-button political issue in Israel? I remember reading it's one dividing line between right-wing secular nationalists (mostly Russian) a la Yisrael Beiteinu and right-wing religious nationalists.
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Oct 16, 2015 17:32
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snyprmag posted:Where'd they even get the pork? How common is pork in I/P if neither side's religion allows it? ... I had the exact same conversation with a fellow back in my army days (wow, over a decade ago). "So, what happens if a suicide bomber wraps himself in bacon to defile as many Jews as possible? Oh, it doesn't matter at all? Because your rabbis know a lot more about Muslim religion than the other way around. Obviously that makes perfect sense."
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Oct 16, 2015 17:33
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Xandu posted:Poor Ayman Mohyeldin. One of the best TV reporters on the conflict and he's getting attacked all over for a pretty minor mistake. Wait, what happened? He did incredible work during the last Gaza War. Edit: Ah, he just was incorrect about whether a Palestinian that was shot dead in a recent attack had a knife or not. But hey, he's a dirty Arab and refuses to cast Israel as a saintly beacon of democracy, no surprise the assholes are going to dogpile on him for the most minor mistake. Cugel the Clever fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Oct 16, 2015 |
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Oct 16, 2015 17:39
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Israel-Palestinian violence flares in West Bank and Gazaquote:The US Secretary of State John Kerry has said he planned to travel to the region in the next few days, amid reports that a meeting may take place in Jordan to include the Israeli and Palestinian leaders. Expect the announcement of a No-Stab Zone.
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Oct 16, 2015 17:42
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Xandu posted:Poor Ayman Mohyeldin. One of the best TV reporters on the conflict and he's getting attacked all over for a pretty minor mistake. I've been reading his stuff since the start of the Arab Spring. I hope he doesn't get cashiered out of TV journalism for this but you know the  pro-Israel brigade will try their best.
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Oct 16, 2015 17:58
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Cugel the Clever posted:Wait, what happened? He did incredible work during the last Gaza War. It shouldn't be a career ender, but whether or not someone who was shot dead in a recent attack was armed or not is kind of an important question. I hope you would not be so sanguine if, say, a Fox News reporter had claimed the Michael Brown had a gun when he was killed. And needless to say, if a reporter had wrongly reported than an unarmed Palestinian shot dead by Israelis was armed when he wasn't this thread wouldn't have been expressing their sympathies and insisting it was a trivial mistake.
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Oct 16, 2015 18:03
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It's totally important, but he was giving a live eyewitness account and was quickly corrected. It's not like msnbc just ran with it.
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Oct 16, 2015 18:06
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Was that the one who was shot in front of him right before he was about to go live?
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Oct 16, 2015 18:11
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Luigi Thirty posted:Was that the one who was shot in front of him right before he was about to go live? Shot dead even. He was remarkably level headed.
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Oct 16, 2015 18:13
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The Insect Court posted:It shouldn't be a career ender, but whether or not someone who was shot dead in a recent attack was armed or not is kind of an important question. Man, you really love that "Israelis are like black people in America" comparison, don't you? And it will never stop being completely ridiculous. Because Israelis are more comparable to white people in America (and Palestinians/Arabs black) it would be more accurate if you switched the races. In either case, it's still a pretty bad journalistic mistake (though not so much if you quickly retract it upon learning it's wrong), but it's more concerning when misinformation is used to hurt the disadvantaged (and/or support the privileged) than otherwise. I don't necessarily think they should be punished differently, but it definitely makes sense for a person to be more upset over misreporting that hurts the more vulnerable than the alternative.* *Like, if misinformation is used in a way that paints Israel in a negative light it's definitely a bad thing, but I don't think "oh poo poo now people might start to hate Israel too much" as a result (whereas I do think that when misinformation is used against Palestinians, since there's a higher chance of it indirectly resulting in actual harmful action being taken against them). To be clear, there's also a chance that misinformation used against Israel could result in Palestinian violence, but Israeli violence tends to of a much greater scale and can have much greater consequences (due to the control Israel has other all Palestinian territory). While a Palestinian might stab or shoot a person/people, Israel has the ability to do that on both a military (and personal, as is often the case with settlers) scale as well as do things like limit the materials Palestinians can import and restrict their rights. SyHopeful posted:NPR has gone to absolute poo poo the last several years. More corny stories about faith and religion, multi-hour blocks of Marketplace, and as you found out a penchant for toeing the same line wrt I/P as the corporate media establishment. NPR is good when it's not talking about anything that is remotely related to politics, finance/business, foreign policy, or pretty much any other serious/important topic. It can be interesting when it's talking about some random pizzeria in Ohio or something. Also, Marketplace is not made by NPR. It is made by American Public Media (APM). While Marketplace is also pretty bad, I actually find it to be better than, say, All Things Considered when talking about issues related to wealth/poverty. The host (Kai Ryssdal I think) can often be a douchebag and clearly does not like the more left-leaning guests he has on the show, but at least they do such interviews in the first place. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Oct 16, 2015 |
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Oct 16, 2015 18:20
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I watch Morning Joe pretty regularly (I know I know) but when anything I/P related comes up it's like they turn off their brains and just read the teleprompter. This is a show which regularly runs through commercial breaks and is incredibly undisciplined. I/P is the only thing I've found across US TV that feels like outright propaganda.
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Oct 16, 2015 19:23
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Mackers posted:Israel-Palestinian violence flares in West Bank and Gaza Don't expect much from Kerry, he's been trying very hard to keep things "fair and balanced", in part due to heavy political pressure from the right. Ted Cruz has already called on Kerry to resign, apparently offended that Kerry said that the racially-motivated stabbing of four Arabs was just as much of a terrorist attack as the Palestinian stabbing attacks. He's also been called out loudly by the Israeli right for, among other things, suggesting that the status quo hasn't been kept on the Temple Mount and that the continued expansion of settlements might have led to frustration among Palestinians. It's unlikely that anything is going to come out of that meeting, other than Israeli government officials demanding that Kerry declare that the current wave of violence is entirely and exclusively Palestinians' fault. Also gonna quote Cruz a bit here, because some people have been showing optimism toward Americans' humanity and ability to tell right and wrong, and the bit where he outright calls the Palestinians "savages" is a pretty good counterpoint to that. quote:Sen. Ted Cruz wants Secretary of State John Kerry to step down if he does not disavow comments claiming Israelis have some responsibility for the recent rash of violence in their country.
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Oct 16, 2015 19:36
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hypnorotic posted:I watch Morning Joe pretty regularly (I know I know) but when anything I/P related comes up it's like they turn off their brains and just read the teleprompter. This is a show which regularly runs through commercial breaks and is incredibly undisciplined. I/P is the only thing I've found across US TV that feels like outright propaganda. They actually came out strongly against the last Gaza War as it was ongoing and did a surprising amount of coverage on the plight of Palestinian civilians. Less so at the moment...
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Oct 16, 2015 21:29
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Ytlaya posted:Man, you really love that "Israelis are like black people in America" comparison, don't you? And it will never stop being completely ridiculous. Because Israelis are more comparable to white people in America (and Palestinians/Arabs black) it would be more accurate if you switched the races. In either case, it's still a pretty bad journalistic mistake (though not so much if you quickly retract it upon learning it's wrong), but it's more concerning when misinformation is used to hurt the disadvantaged (and/or support the privileged) than otherwise. I don't necessarily think they should be punished differently, but it definitely makes sense for a person to be more upset over misreporting that hurts the more vulnerable than the alternative.* It's unfortunate you didn't take the time to fully read my post before understanding. Because the analogy to the Michael Brown case casts Palestinians in the role of African-Americans, not Israelis. And I would think someone who expresses concern over hurting the vulnerable should be more concerned with incorrect(whether due to honest errors or malicious misrepresentation) reporting on the current violence given the ability of such false reports to inflame tensions.
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Oct 16, 2015 22:32
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Ytlaya posted:NPR is good when it's not talking about anything that is remotely related to politics, finance/business, foreign policy, or pretty much any other serious/important topic. It can be interesting when it's talking about some random pizzeria in Ohio or something. Well yeah, who's going to hate on Garrison Keillor, Wait Wait Don't Tell Me, or The Splendid Table? But any of their news coverage has gone downhill. Even locally - they try to play that false balance card in interviews and stuff. And it's hard to keep track of who produces what, I listen to OPB as part of NPR but also APM and whothefuckknows. For me it's more telling what they AREN'T doing shows about. Instead of income inequality they do a story on one person's woes. Avoid looking at the bigger picture but doing emotionally appealing tales of individual struggle and triumph. SyHopeful fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Oct 16, 2015 |
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Oct 16, 2015 23:41
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Main Paineframe posted:Seems so, since Abbas felt safe enough to intervene, resulting in what is probably the first major PA action in two weeks: by all accounts, PA authorities are the ones that put out the flames and drove off the rioters, the PA is opening an investigation into the event, and Abbas has personally condemned the attack and "ordered" immediate repairs to the site. It may well have been accidental, since rioters were chucking Molotov cocktails all over the place, but both the PA and IDF benefit more from calling it an intentional act. Accidental, just like the Palestinian man who smashed his car into a group of people before getting out and proceeding to stab four more was claimed to be accidental? Main Paineframe posted:For people who are having trouble cutting through the rhetoric there, the so-called "terrorist" claims that the "terrorist attempt to run down two Israeli soldiers at a bus stop" was just an ordinary car accident, and that the subsequent stabbings were self-defense against ordinary passerby who accused him of being a terrorist and tried to lynch him on the spot. Your conspiracy theory involving a joint IDF and PA effort to disguise the cause of the fire is just as absurd and unworthy of serious consideration as your previous one.
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Oct 17, 2015 02:14
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So how about your feelings on the extralegal forced homelessness and destruction of housing for relatives of the accused?
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Oct 17, 2015 06:02
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Year Zero of the Arab-Israeli Conflict 1929, by Hillel Cohen is coming out in English in November. I've read the original in Hebrew and it's very good. A variety of excerpts from original documents paints a much more nuanced picture of the massacres, as well as Jewish-Muslim relations in the early Mandate era. It definitely changed some of my views of the conflict. Highly recommended.
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Oct 17, 2015 07:25
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Year Zero of the Arab-Israeli Conflict 1929, by Hillel Cohen is coming out in English in November. I've read the original in Hebrew and it's very good. A variety of excerpts from original documents paints a much more nuanced picture of the massacres, as well as Jewish-Muslim relations in the early Mandate era. It definitely changed some of my views of the conflict. Highly recommended. Wanna do a really long writeup summarizing the major points to insert some sort content to this thread that isn't the same argument over and over again about who's the biggest bastard in the conflict this week?
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Oct 17, 2015 08:20
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hypnorotic posted:I watch Morning Joe pretty regularly (I know I know) but when anything I/P related comes up it's like they turn off their brains and just read the teleprompter. This is a show which regularly runs through commercial breaks and is incredibly undisciplined. I/P is the only thing I've found across US TV that feels like outright propaganda. You should watch the clip of Zbigniew Brzezinski coming on and discussing I/P. Says Joe has 'a stunningly superficial' understanding of what went on particularly around Taba.
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Oct 17, 2015 09:53
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The Insect Court posted:Accidental, just like the Palestinian man who smashed his car into a group of people before getting out and proceeding to stab four more was claimed to be accidental? I hate admitting it but yeah the stuff palestinians are doing, insofar as it tanks international support, hurts people who probably shouldn't have been targetted in the first place, is a bad thing and should be censured as harshly as violence against palestinians. Political violence never solves anything, it just perpetuates poo poo. But you don't get a pass for all the times you have continually squirmed out of answering direct questions other posters have about your views on home demolitions and policies that would be called collectivized punishment if they were committed by any other regime in the world. Your arguing style seems to be to just assert something, selectively reply to people you have a canned response to, and to quietly let the questions you can't answer vanish upscreen. What do you think about the fact that Israel, a nominally first-world, 'western' democracy, destroys the houses of the families of terror suspects, often with no prior warning, and sometimes killing family members who couldn't evacuate in time?
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Oct 17, 2015 12:58
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Friendly Tumour posted:Wanna do a really long writeup summarizing the major points to insert some sort content to this thread that isn't the same argument over and over again about who's the biggest bastard in the conflict this week? Remind me in November, I'm in a bit of crunch time now. I'd also have to re-skim it since it's been more than a year since I had read it.
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Oct 17, 2015 16:12
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This has been cited as evidence for pro-Palestinian bias by MSNBC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxaM5tjFyAw Includes that "disappearing Palestine" map that I think was argued about in this thread some months ago: 
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Oct 17, 2015 16:59
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Is there any argument against that map that doesn't boil down to "They didn't have a flag.  "? Because that's the only thing I'm getting from that video.
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Oct 17, 2015 17:04
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Kajeesus posted:Is there any argument against that map that doesn't boil down to "They didn't have a flag. Nobody expected the Israeli Government to take Eddie Izzard seriously.
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Oct 17, 2015 17:09
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Kajeesus posted:Is there any argument against that map that doesn't boil down to "They didn't have a flag. I'd say the first one is misleading because at that point there wasn't a Jewish/Arab state plan at all, so what they're doing is taking the municipal boundaries of existing Jewish communities and assuming that everything else should have belonged to the Palestinian Arabs as incorporated as a Palestine. If they wanted to go with municipal boundaries of communities they would have had to have a lot of green blotches, as well as light-green ones to take mixed cities and towns into account, with the rest being another, neutral color.
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Oct 17, 2015 17:09
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Kajeesus posted:Is there any argument against that map that doesn't boil down to "They didn't have a flag. furthest left doesn't count unless you discount the UN, in which case international norms don't matter, in which case might makes right and Israel did nothing wrong
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Oct 17, 2015 17:10
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I'd say the first one is misleading because at that point there wasn't a Jewish/Arab state plan at all, so what they're doing is taking the municipal boundaries of existing Jewish communities and assuming that everything else should have belonged to the Palestinian Arabs as incorporated as a Palestine. If they wanted to go with municipal boundaries of communities they would have had to have a lot of green blotches, as well as light-green ones to take mixed cities and towns into account, with the rest being another, neutral color. Okay, that is fair. I think the maps I've seen excluded the first one.
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Oct 17, 2015 17:18
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How often has that graphic shown up on TV? I swear this is the first time I've seen an american news channel acknowledge it.
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Oct 17, 2015 17:41
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Neurolimal posted:How often has that graphic shown up on TV? I swear this is the first time I've seen an american news channel acknowledge it. Only time I've seen it before is on bus ads:  Though I've seen ones like these way more often, especially on TriMet: 
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Oct 17, 2015 18:31
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I'd say the first one is misleading because at that point there wasn't a Jewish/Arab state plan at all, so what they're doing is taking the municipal boundaries of existing Jewish communities and assuming that everything else should have belonged to the Palestinian Arabs as incorporated as a Palestine. If they wanted to go with municipal boundaries of communities they would have had to have a lot of green blotches, as well as light-green ones to take mixed cities and towns into account, with the rest being another, neutral color. The maps are based roughly on community control. We could take the other view and just say the first map should just be all green. This counts for larger Jewish conurbations but the UN partition plan's proposed Jewish state had 500,000 Jews for 400,000 Arabs. If you're having to be so precise about the first maps based on demographics , the following maps should show it too to reflect demographic realities.
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Oct 17, 2015 18:35
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Abner Cadaver II posted:Though I've seen ones like these way more often, especially on TriMet: I can understand the obsession with el-husseini by early Israelis - Avi Shlaim points out that The Holocaust Encyclopedia contained an entry on el-husseini that was (just about) second-only in length to Hitler's - but he was far away from 'leader of the Islamic world'.
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Oct 17, 2015 18:54
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Hong XiuQuan posted:The maps are based roughly on community control. We could take the other view and just say the first map should just be all green. No, I'm saying that the first map has nothing to do with the other maps. It's comparing apples and oranges. They're counting the Jews by demographics but the Arabs by everything else. For no good reason, as both Jews and Arabs were involved in governance through the Mandate. Another way would be to paint the whole thing in red or something to express that it was all under British control. Edit: One interpretation that I think would be consistent for all of them would be "shrinking Palestinian freedom of movement". Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Oct 17, 2015 |
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Oct 17, 2015 19:00
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You know that settler who shot and killed a Palestinian boy who'd ostensibly attacked him with a knife? Looks like he may not have had a knife: https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/video-did-israeli-soldier-plant-knife-teen-killed-settler Warning - video may be   #Pallywood
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Oct 17, 2015 20:45
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Absurd Alhazred posted:No, I'm saying that the first map has nothing to do with the other maps. It's comparing apples and oranges. They're counting the Jews by demographics but the Arabs by everything else. For no good reason, as both Jews and Arabs were involved in governance through the Mandate. Another way would be to paint the whole thing in red or something to express that it was all under British control. It roughly correlates with the Peel Commission partition plan, so I'm not sure it's as misleading as you say, whether you look at it purely from a perspective or private land-ownership, majority demographic concentration or political control/proposal.
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Oct 17, 2015 20:53
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Hong XiuQuan posted:It roughly correlates with the Peel Commission partition plan, so I'm not sure it's as misleading as you say, whether you look at it purely from a perspective or private land-ownership, majority demographic concentration or political control/proposal. Not really. Here's the Peel Commission partition plan:  Jews were to have had concentrated control of a mostly contiguous area, cut off by a small Mandate regime. We're also talking something that was proposed in 1937, and was absolutely outdated by 1946. It was rejected pretty much immediately by Arab leadership. As I said, this is comparing apples to oranges as far as calling it "Palestine". Calling it "where (non-Jewish) Palestinians could freely move" or whatnot is a lot more honest.
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Oct 17, 2015 21:04
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Hong XiuQuan posted:You know that settler who shot and killed a Palestinian boy who'd ostensibly attacked him with a knife? You know the IDF has a good case when they've put Peter Lerner on it!
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Oct 17, 2015 21:10
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Not really. Here's the Peel Commission partition plan: 1) Doesn't matter. The first map could go back as far as 1800, the point is still the same. 2) Of course it was rejected by most of the Arab leadership. Rightly so. And Ben 'Don't worry, once we're strong we can extend' Gurion had good reasons for extending it. 3) No, maybe clarifying the labelling on the first map to say 'private land ownership under Mandate rule' would be more 'honest' here. The point at essence is to show what the Palestinians had and what they don't have. And the maps do that clearly. it takes some pedantry to squabble about it but that's fine - I still think the point is well-made. (And we shouldn't forget: if we relabelled to 'freedom of movement' someone would inevitably point out that some Palestinian citizens of Israel theoretically have freedom of movement)
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Oct 17, 2015 21:25
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