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So a few of you have posted about how it's a terrible inevitability that racist responses from Israelis will lead to shootings of innocents. Looks like first shooting victim. Someone shot people on bus, runs away. Police and security come on scene and shoot the first black man they see (whoops). Don't worry, they killed the Palestinian. And the black guy was Eritrean. Meanwhile, Jewish Israelis milled around preventing the ambulance from arriving while shouting 'death to Arabs', 'Am Yisrael chai' etc. One guy spat on and kicked the Eritrean guy who's now in a serious condition. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4712997,00.html FYI - in the UK, spitting on someone can be considered intending Grievous Bodily Harm (because of the risk of transmission of disease), deliberately obstructing people attending an emergency where life/death hangs in the balance can also lead to a charge of murder or manslaughter in the case of death or other serious charges. Can someone let me know if the light unto nations has arrested anyone for spitting on and for kicking an already-wounded African man?
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Oct 18, 2015 21:30
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I, my friends and my family, use that bus terminal to travel fairly frequently. People I know and care about could have died there. (The same is true regarding any incident in Jerusalem, but I'm focusing on my family right now. Just recently, I told my dad he should buy something in Beer-Sheva. Had he chosen that particular day to do so, that would have been... unpleasant) I do appreciate you taking this opportunity to emphasize that the Israeli reaction to an attack that left a man dead and several other injured and / or in danger of death, does not fit your strict standards of professional security response and / or enlightened empathy. I'm sure that the Palestinians... oh. Oh wait. Ok, let's leave that highly Islamophobic avenue of comparison, and go with the Chinese... err, let's not. Let's say that if and when the people of London undergo daily terrorist attacks, they will surely react in a superior and civilized manner. (Blocking ambulances is a lovely thing to do. Makes a bit more sense than whenever people in [say] a poor neighborhood in America do so, but still. Stupid in general) Hong XiuQuan posted:
quote:So yeah, if I find anything that casts doubt on that decades-old narrative, I'll share it if I like. And you share whatever you like to reinforce whatever narrative you think best describes the situation. And feel free to challenge me, for example, if it's a lie that the Israeli Rabbi said this. Or if you think it's OK that he said it. Or if you think it doesn't matter that he said it. Kol ha kavod.
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Oct 19, 2015 00:15
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Xander77 posted:I, my friends and my family, use that bus terminal to travel fairly frequently. People I know and care about could have died there. (The same is true regarding any incident in Jerusalem, but I'm focusing on my family right now. Just recently, I told my dad he should buy something in Beer-Sheva. Had he chosen that particular day to do so, that would have been... unpleasant) First I want to say I'm glad you and nobody you know personally has been harmed and I hope it stays that way. Second, I think the 'narrative' h.x. was describing is the one nominally portrayed in the united states which has a history of providing israel with unparalleled levels of material and ideological support along with a deliberate obscuring of dissenting viewpoints both foreign and domestic.
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Oct 19, 2015 00:35
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Haha wow, you're in full attack mode now, aren't you? Let me applaud you for posting something other than a one liner post with a 'look what the evil Zionists did' link and say that I hope you continue to contribute more substantial posts. quote:1) I can't see what Xander has written beyond just a quote on my Awful app so assuming can only read it on PC. Will do that later. Have I miscommunicated the article in some way? Yes, in a very material way. But I will take your word that it was not intentional and was just a result of indifference or incompetence and not a willful misrepresentation. quote:2) Why yes, I try to read as much as possible from Arabic, English and Hebrew sources. gently caress me, right? Obviously this is not the case, given you did not bother to read and understand the article you posted a link to. Again, I'm assuming your misrepresentation of its content and context was in error. quote:Feel free to assume either I found it myself, I read an Arabic equivalent of MEMRI or I follow an Israeli commentator on Twitter - in either circumstance it doesn't matter. If it doesn't matter, why are you so reticent to post the original source for these? They could be a useful resource for other members of the thread. quote:Now, I don't know about you, but in English language sources and indeed even in Arabic sources, I read a lot about what Palestinians say or do. I even read MEMRI! I think it's valuable to look at what Israeli political and religious leaders are saying, particularly at times of religious tension. In this case a popular Rabbi - wait, let's call him marginal - a marginal Rabbi, who you could hardly accuse of being a street preacher accosting people at road crossings, has issued the equivalent of a fatwa, that is a (presumably) non-binding legal opinion which is disgusting, murderous and outrageous. If it's wrong for Pamela Geller types to take the rant of a single obscure imam and misrepresent them as somehow representing Muslims, then it's wrong to do the same when it comes to Judaism and Jews. I would hope you agree. Is it really so difficult for you to take a step back from the fringe and realize that Drudge Report style "Leading Rabbi Calls On Jews to Slaughter Muslims!!!" headlines are no better than "Leading Muslim Cleric Calls on Muslims to Slaughter Jews!!!" Hong XiuQuan posted:Can someone let me know if the light unto nations has arrested anyone for spitting on and for kicking an already-wounded African man? If you're afflicted with paranoia over the belief that you will (supposedly wrongly) be accused of antisemitism and like to complain that the evil Zionists are always conflating Israel and Jews and insinuating that Jews as a people are culpable for the actions of the Israeli state, you seem to show remarkably little hesitation in doing so yourself. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Oct 19, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 01:31
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The soldier killed in Beer Sheva has been identified, meaning that his family has been informed. Meanwhile, the Eritrean asylum seeker shot and then attacked by an angry mob is now dead.  One thing to note: again, the original assailant was able to upgrade his weaponry (in this case, from a pistol to an assault rifle) by killing someone armed with a better weapon and stealing it. This with the constant extra-judicial "justice" meted out by individuals an mobs makes it clear that encouraging civilians (and off-duty soldiers) to carry arms, reducing the burden of getting a gun license, etc, is a terrible, terrible idea.
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Oct 19, 2015 01:36
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Xander77 posted:I, my friends and my family, use that bus terminal to travel fairly frequently. People I know and care about could have died there. (The same is true regarding any incident in Jerusalem, but I'm focusing on my family right now. Just recently, I told my dad he should buy something in Beer-Sheva. Had he chosen that particular day to do so, that would have been... unpleasant) I'm sorry to hear that and I appreciate the emotion. It's a shame that you're currently being forced to experience the kind of terror of random violence that Palestinians live with for decades and I genuinely have no doubt that it's awful, so you have my sympathies. For what it's worth, the majority of my family live in and around al-Khalil. People I know and care about could have been on ambulances prevented from moving by some of the worst human beings alive; you know, those illegal settlers who make lives in al-Khalil a misery? The ones who have set fires there and I'm sure you've seen the videos of them filming it while looking on admiringly and laughing? God forbid any of my family film something. They might be disappeared in the middle of the night and have some of their bare possessions confiscated for the audacity of recording a crime. quote:I do appreciate you taking this opportunity to emphasize that the Israeli reaction to an attack that left a man dead and several other injured and / or in danger of death, does not fit your strict standards of professional security response and / or enlightened empathy. Yeah, you keep doing this. I'm not holding Israel to some mysterious, unattainable standard. It is supposedly a democracy governed by the rule of law. Israel claims it. It is supposedly a light unto nations. David Ben-Gurion said so. It armed forces are meant to operate in the spirit of purity of arms. I didn't write theIDF spirit. It's meant to be restrained. I don't describe it as such - just do a Google search for 'Israel' and 'Restrained' or 'restraint'. I'm trying to hold Israel to the same standard I would hold a country like the United Kingdom. Where, when Jean-Charles de Menezes was gunned down by security services in the wake of a major terrorist attack (yes, on tube lines I use every day). The executive spent millions investigating it. The family received compensation exceeding £100,000. The eventual verdict absolved the security forces, which engendered a lot of civil opprobrium. So when I ask if this self-described light unto nations has arrested someone who has surely committed a crime, yes, even in a trying circumstance, I'd love it if your response was less 'well yeah, people get emotional' and more 'gently caress, yeah I live in a democracy and I'd love some of these fuckers to be held accountable for their actions'. I'd also love for you not to gloss over the fact that upon hearing the word 'attack' or 'terror' there's a Pavlovian response to attack either Arabs or blacks. That poor Eritrean guy, who as AA has pointed out is now dead, will probably have gone through the worst kinds of racism every day while trying to eke out a living. Now, you can lay part of that blame on the Palestinian who shot up a bus and ran. You can and should lay part of that blame on someone who ran in, saw an unarmed black man and shot him. You can and should lay part of that blame on a man who walked up to him and spit on him and kicked him as he lay dying. You can and should lay part of that blame on the crowd of people shouting 'death to Arabs' and preventing ambulances from attending. You can and should lay part of that blame on the security forces ostensibly not arresting any of the fuckers who have participated in the above. Instead, your response is: quote:. I'm sure that the Palestinians... oh. Oh wait. Ok, let's leave that highly Islamophobic avenue of comparison, and go with the Chinese... err, let's not. Let's say that if and when the people of London undergo daily terrorist attacks, they will surely react in a superior and civilized manner. Firstly, what do the Chinese have to do with this? I'm not Chinese. Secondly, feel free to talk about what Palestinians would do or have done. I'm all for the prosecution of people who murder civilians, people who prevent ambulances attending wounded etc. This is a really weak line of argument. If you're trying to say 'under pressure, the rule of law of an occupying state has to break in order to allow civilians to express rage or grief at the expense of minorities or the people under occupation' then come out and say it. quote:(Blocking ambulances is a lovely thing to do. Makes a bit more sense than whenever people in [say] a poor neighborhood in America do so, but still. Stupid in general) Wow, glad to see you've made this concession. Yes, you've weakened it by trying to compare it to something else - doesn't work because yes, even in the US I would argue for the prosecution of anyone interfering with emergency medical personal resulting in harm; but that's for a different thread - but it's more than a lovely thing to do and you know that. It directly leads to death. It often is a crime. Why aren't you pushing for arrests and prosecutions? Does human life mean so little to you? quote:To whom? By whom? Who in this thread believes this narrative yet at the same time gives a poo poo about what you post? If people don't give a poo poo about what I post, they can ignore it. Right now, people like you seem compelled to react to it, quite possibly because you have a human conscience and are feeling just a little bit challenged in your world view and that's more than enough for me. Because there's a very slim possibility that at some point over the next few days you'll think to yourself 'actually, yeah, that Eritrean was a human being and if I'd heard about a Jew being deprived an ambulance by anyone, being spat on by anyone while dying on the floor then I would demand appropriate justice.' And who knows, maybe you'll talk to your family and friends about it. So feel free to ignore, but I'm going to keep (1) updating with what I think are interesting news stories that challenge prevailing narratives and (2) pressing what I believe is right, particularly as I suspect I might be one of the only people with an actual Palestinian connection in the thread. quote:I'm a Russian Jew. If there's a "prevailing narrative" that I'm partial to, it's the one about the locals being brown superstitious Jewish-Arabs. Ruled by exactly the sort of people that should have been locked in their synagogues (boo) and barracks (yay). Which is fair enough. But you know it goes deeper than that. Even in this post you've suggested that the rule of law even as pertaining to serious wounding and death is flexible when people are scared. That's really worrying. Because you don't come across as a scumbug and no doubt thousands of people like you are thinking and feeling in the same way. And who do you think pays the price for that? It won't be disgusting, rampaging illegal settlers. It will be Palestinian civilians.
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Oct 19, 2015 02:50
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Xander77 posted:I, my friends and my family, use that bus terminal to travel fairly frequently. People I know and care about could have died there. (The same is true regarding any incident in Jerusalem, but I'm focusing on my family right now. Just recently, I told my dad he should buy something in Beer-Sheva. Had he chosen that particular day to do so, that would have been... unpleasant) Arm yourself and your family. Only sane thing to do surrounded by knife wielding savages. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 19, 2015 02:57
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The Insect Court posted:If it's wrong for Pamela Geller types to take the rant of a single obscure imam and misrepresent them as somehow representing Muslims, then it's wrong to do the same when it comes to Judaism and Jews. I would hope you agree. Is it really so difficult for you to take a step back from the fringe and realize that Drudge Report style "Leading Rabbi Calls On Jews to Slaughter Muslims!!!" headlines are no better than "Leading Muslim Cleric Calls on Muslims to Slaughter Jews!!!" Again, I'll ask you to go back and answer my questions rather than this selective responding you do but I'll respond to a couple of things you're saying. On this point, Pamela Gellar will take a quotation - sometimes the quotation will even be genuine and genuinely awful and absolutely merits severe criticism - but use that to demand expulsion or removal of rights. What you're confusing this with is highlighting what a Rabbi permits, in language that would get attention were it a Muslim permitting the same - you won't see me arguing that the various fatwas on Salmon Rushdie etc are good things - as part of a state that is currently occupying the West Bank and Gaza. Israelis are not a minority in their state. Israel has one of the most powerful militaries in the world. Israel is meant to be governed by the rule of law. Israel has been passing laws designed to crack down on Arabs inciting anything. So you have that as a backdrop as suddenly you have a Rabbi you don't quite dismiss as marginal - answer these two: is he considered a hate preacher in Israel? Has he come under increased police scrutiny as a result of his comments? - saying that Jews are permitted to bash the heads of wounded Palestinians in. Many people won't listen to him. Some people might. And at a time when ambulances are being blocked, people are being shot while they surrender/run away, innocents are being gunned down, Jewish settlers are acting with impunity etc (in fact I've seen a Jewish settler spokesman approvingly quote his comments) then yes, it should be extremely worrying. You still haven't condemned it, by the way. You haven't suggested he should be arrested and investigated for incitement. Why is that? quote:If you're afflicted with paranoia over the belief that you will (supposedly wrongly) be accused of antisemitism and like to complain that the evil Zionists are always conflating Israel and Jews and insinuating that Jews as a people are culpable for the actions of the Israeli state, you seem to show remarkably little hesitation in doing so yourself. If you're going to accuse me of antisemitism, go ahead and do it. Don't dance around the point with weasel language. And I'm going to press you to demonstrate where I've 'insinuated' that the Jewish people are responsible for Israeli state actions. And I'll keep pressing you on that.
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Oct 19, 2015 03:05
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Do the Israelis still sterilize black women? Or is shooting them and denying them medical assistance until death the new deal?
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Oct 19, 2015 03:06
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fits my needs posted:Do the Israelis still sterilize black women? Or is shooting them and denying them medical assistance until death the new deal? Never really happened. The ambulance thing is something that is happening and the world should be shining a lot on. Any time an Israeli spokesperson appears on TV, this should be thrust in their face.
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Oct 19, 2015 03:07
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Never really happened. Good news for those sterile Ethiopians!
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Oct 19, 2015 03:13
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Good news for those sterile Ethiopians! Huh, maybe I'm wrong. Could have sworn that after first wave of reports there was something that cast doubt on it.
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Oct 19, 2015 03:18
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242 pages in and people are still bringing up the depo-provera poo poo.
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Oct 19, 2015 03:29
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The soldier killed in Beer Sheva has been identified, meaning that his family has been informed. Meanwhile, the Eritrean asylum seeker shot and then attacked by an angry mob is now dead. Not good. Didn't see the video from the scene until now. His treatment actually horrifyingly worse than I thought it was:   https://twitter.com/nasseratta5/status/655830438494281728
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Oct 19, 2015 03:29
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I'm sorry that the event happened so close to home, and am glad you and yours are safe.
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Oct 19, 2015 03:32
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Not good. Didn't see the video from the scene until now. His treatment actually horrifyingly worse than I thought it was: Holy poo poo...
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Oct 19, 2015 04:54
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I think the only way to stop these shootings due to mistaken identity would be for Israelis to wear something signifying their religion. I believe that this would greatly reduce friendly-fire and deliver justice to those individuals that are the true terrorists and threat to Israel.
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Oct 19, 2015 05:15
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Huh, maybe I'm wrong. Could have sworn that after first wave of reports there was something that cast doubt on it. I think the sorry/not sorry thing that happened was 'we warned them it may make them sterile (but also told them they should take it or hid the warning or some other stupid poo poo that makes the warning useless)' but yea it did end with Ethiopian Jews being sterile.
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Oct 19, 2015 05:44
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Hong XiuQuan posted:On this point, Pamela Gellar will take a quotation - sometimes the quotation will even be genuine and genuinely awful and absolutely merits severe criticism - but use that to demand expulsion or removal of rights. So you doing the same thing is acceptable, as long as you're not (explicitly) calling for the expulsion of Jews from Israel or the removal of their rights? Assuming of course that your anti-Zionist views don't already qualify you. Would you therefore have no objection to an Islamophobic bigot acting as described but falling short of specific exhortations? Is it acceptable as long as they use it to suggest that Muslims as a group are cruel, bloodthirsty, and deceitful? I ask these as rhetorical questions, as I think I can assume your answer in both cases would be negative. Yet you seem to find the same behavior acceptable when it comes to Jews? quote:You still haven't condemned it, by the way. You haven't suggested he should be arrested and investigated for incitement. Why is that? I don't feel the need to explicitly state that people who commit violence against police officers or who condone it are in the wrong in response to some right-wing #BlueLivesMatter type insinuating that those who fail to do so must secretly support it, I see no need to play the same game with you. And really, must I go back and find all the posts you make that don't explicitly condemn violence against Israelis to demonstrate its absurdity? It would break the post size limit. quote:If you're going to accuse me of antisemitism, go ahead and do it. Don't dance around the point with weasel language. And I'm going to press you to demonstrate where I've 'insinuated' that the Jewish people are responsible for Israeli state actions. And I'll keep pressing you on that. Rather than divide people up into a "is an antisemite"/"not an antisemite" binary(as reductive as a racist/not racist one), I prefer a more nuanced approach that deals with antisemitic modes of discourse and use of language. It's risible to suggest that one is either an "is an antisemite" (who has to look like Ed Norton in American History X) or you're a "not an antisemite" whose motives and influences are beyond reproach, wouldn't you agree? Just to help you out with an example, using a well-known epithet for the Jewish people as a sarcastic term of derision is probably the sort of thing you should try to avoid. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Oct 19, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 06:01
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The Insect Court posted:So you doing the same thing is acceptable, as long as you're not (explicitly) calling for the expulsion of Jews from Israel or the removal of their rights? Assuming of course that your anti-Zionist views don't already qualify you. You've said one thing of substance in this post, so I'll deal with it. Yes, pointing out what Israeli Rabbis, Israeli political leaders et al are saying at a time when Israel is occupying the West bank and Gaza, tensions are inflamed and the Israeli government is both inciting and accusing others of inciting, is extremely important. And yes, it absolutely should be used to criticise the executive and to fear for both the continued rise of extremism in Israeli society and the influence more extreme Rabbis have in the illegal settler movement. If you can't see the difference between that and a hatemonger like Pamela Gellar who's making GBS threads down on a minority with explicit calls on the reduction of their rights as citizens as well as the use of fear and intimidation tactics, then you're really beyond my help.
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Oct 19, 2015 07:04
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Hong XiuQuan posted:You've said one thing of substance in this post, so I'll deal with it. Yes, pointing out what Israeli Rabbis, Israeli political leaders et al are saying at a time when Israel is occupying the West bank and Gaza, tensions are inflamed and the Israeli government is both inciting and accusing others of inciting, is extremely important. And yes, it absolutely should be used to criticise the executive and to fear for both the continued rise of extremism in Israeli society and the influence more extreme Rabbis have in the illegal settler movement. Let's review, shall we? Hong XiuQuan posted:A top Rabbi in Israel issued a Fatwa allowing Jews to beat the heads of unconscious/subdued Palestinians to a pulp: http://www.kikar.co.il/183060.html (It's in Hebrew, so use Google Translate to get the gist) Your post did not contain a link to something said by Hong XiuQuan posted:Israeli political leaders et al You posted a link to a story about a statement made by a "top Rabbi in Israel" (your characterization). A religious leader, not a political leader. You didn't post it to Hong XiuQuan posted:criticise the executive and to fear for both the continued rise of extremism in Israeli society and the influence more extreme Rabbis have in the illegal settler movement. You posted it with the clear implication that the rabbi in question is significantly representative of Jews in Israel. Hence the use of the phrase "top Rabbi in Israel". Hong XiuQuan posted:If you can't see the difference between that and a hatemonger like Pamela Gellar who's making GBS threads down on a minority with explicit calls on the reduction of their rights as citizens as well as the use of fear and intimidation tactics, then you're really beyond my help. The only substantive point I can draw from this is that it's unacceptable when Geller et al. do it but acceptable when you do it because your targets have got it coming and hers don't. Your argument here is solely about the deservedness of the subjects of the abuse. That is a clear point of differentiation, but once again it does not refute the fact that your rhetoric is disturbingly similar in form to that of Islamophobes like Geller. Hong XiuQuan posted:What I wrote is basically a translation of the bloody title and subtitle of the Kikar article. And you know that. Yes, Islamophobes also like to link spam to articles with titles of the "Top Muslims Says [Something Terrible]!" sort. Not seeing how it's a defense in their case, or in yours. Especially because you didn't just post the title but added your own editorial emendation. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Oct 19, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 07:42
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You know you're being entirely disingenuous here. You're saying I'm using 'top Rabbi' to mislead people as to how representative this Rabbi is. What I wrote is basically a translation of the bloody title and subtitle of the Kikar article. And you know that. For others reading, this sentence in the subtitle is clear: Kikar posted:רבי בן ציון מוצפי, מבכירי הפוסקים בציבור הספרדי TIC, feel free to translate. You can argue I should have used 'Sephardi' as a qualifier but if you want to 'leading' is more suitable than 'top', feel free. If you have a significant problem with it, take it up with Kikar.
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Oct 19, 2015 08:08
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The soldier killed in Beer Sheva has been identified, meaning that his family has been informed. Meanwhile, the Eritrean asylum seeker shot and then attacked by an angry mob is now dead. Grand Theft Intifada.
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Oct 19, 2015 08:58
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The Insect Court posted:Let's review, shall we? Hong XiuQuan posted:Speaking of posting about Israelis in positions of power saying stuff - genocidal maniac-in-the-making Ayelet Shaked has said: The Insect Court posted:I don't feel the need to explicitly state that people who commit violence against police officers or who condone it are in the wrong in response to some right-wing #BlueLivesMatter type insinuating that those who fail to do so must secretly support it, I see no need to play the same game with you. So Palestinians are comparable to cops, in that they are given a position of power and authority that they sometimes abuse?
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Oct 19, 2015 09:28
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The Insect Court posted:Rather than divide people up into a "is an antisemite"/"not an antisemite" binary(as reductive as a racist/not racist one), I prefer a more nuanced approach that deals with antisemitic modes of discourse and use of language. It's risible to suggest that one is either an "is an antisemite" (who has to look like Ed Norton in American History X) or you're a "not an antisemite" whose motives and influences are beyond reproach, wouldn't you agree? I'm not sure what your definition of nuanced approach is, given that your entire posting strategy seems to be spuriously accusing people of anti-Semitism, implicitly or otherwise. The Insect Court posted:Just to help you out with an example, using a well-known epithet for the Jewish people as a sarcastic term of derision is probably the sort of thing you should try to avoid. Here's an example of you implying that someone's posted something anti-Semitic. You're not going to actually provide a concrete example, but we can rest assured that the thread is rife with anti-Semitism and no one here is rationally opposed to the actions of the state of Israel. The Insect Court posted:The only substantive point I can draw from this is that it's unacceptable when Geller et al. do it but acceptable when you do it because your targets have got it coming and hers don't. Your argument here is solely about the deservedness of the subjects of the abuse. That is a clear point of differentiation, but once again it does not refute the fact that your rhetoric is disturbingly similar in form to that of Islamophobes like Geller. Pamela Geller runs an SPLC-recognized hate group, and has publicly condemned Israel's policy on Palestinians for not being brutal enough. Please point out where in Hong XiuGuan he explicitly calls for Jewish genocide, or expresses that Jews need to have rights stripped away. As far as I can tell, all he's calling for is that Jews do not stomp on the heads of Palestinians, so unless you believe Arab-stomping is an inviolable human right, I fail to see the comparison. E: Also, since you never answered this: Can you please elaborate on how Palestinians are not indigenous to the region, and how claims otherwise are anti-Semitic?
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Oct 19, 2015 10:03
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Hong XiuQuan posted:I'm sorry to hear that and I appreciate the emotion. It's a shame that you're currently being forced to experience the kind of terror of random violence that Palestinians live with for decades and I genuinely have no doubt that it's awful, so you have my sympathies. For what it's worth, the majority of my family live in and around al-Khalil. People I know and care about could have been on ambulances prevented from moving by some of the worst human beings alive; you know, those illegal settlers who make lives in al-Khalil a misery? The ones who have set fires there and I'm sure you've seen the videos of them filming it while looking on admiringly and laughing? God forbid any of my family film something. They might be disappeared in the middle of the night and have some of their bare possessions confiscated for the audacity of recording a crime. Always thought that constantly pushing "this is what daily life is like for people in Judea and Samara, this is what settlers do on a regular basis" might help disabuse the general public of the notion that their lives aren't poo poo and they are merely attacking because they hate the Jews. (More of a socials network thing, obviously, and I'm not sure how hard that angle is being pushed right now) quote:Yeah, you keep doing this. I'm not holding Israel to some mysterious, unattainable standard. It is supposedly a democracy governed by the rule of law. Israel claims it. It is supposedly a light unto nations. David Ben-Gurion said so. It armed forces are meant to operate in the spirit of purity of arms. I didn't write theIDF spirit. It's meant to be restrained. I don't describe it as such - just do a Google search for 'Israel' and 'Restrained' or 'restraint'. I'm trying to hold Israel to the same standard I would hold a country like the United Kingdom. Where, when Jean-Charles de Menezes was gunned down by security services in the wake of a major terrorist attack (yes, on tube lines I use every day). The executive spent millions investigating it. The family received compensation exceeding £100,000. The eventual verdict absolved the security forces, which engendered a lot of civil opprobrium. 1. "Restrained" in the sense that "we're not killing quite as many people as someone else might have" doesn't really mean much to the people you're killing. No one is exceptionally pleased to bury their "collateral damage" fatalities by considering that just a hundred mile to the north east they would all have been killed in a deliberate chemical attack. 2. Still technically true. 3. As to the notion of a "a democracy governed by the rule of law" being restrained by the actual letter and spirit of its laws, rather than an enforced equilibrium between its laws, PR, political realities, military concerns, and people on the ground being people... yeah, good luck with that. Get back to me when you've managed to get Tony Blair indicted. Or Bush, or any number of Blackwater people, or.. etc. Democracies tend to do that. (Kinda getting the feeling that people attacked suspicious Irishmen back during the height of the London bombings as well, but that's a major aside) quote:I'd also love for you not to gloss over the fact that upon hearing the word 'attack' or 'terror' there's a Pavlovian response to attack either Arabs or blacks. That poor Eritrean guy, who as AA has pointed out is now dead, will probably have gone through the worst kinds of racism every day while trying to eke out a living. Now, you can lay part of that blame on the Palestinian who shot up a bus and ran. quote:So when I ask if this self-described light unto nations has arrested someone who has surely committed a crime, yes, even in a trying circumstance, I'd love it if your response was less 'well yeah, people get emotional' and more 'gently caress, yeah I live in a democracy and I'd love some of these fuckers to be held accountable for their actions'. Again, I hang out with these people on a daily basis, and I'm under no illusions that they are an exceptionally enlightened species. When (as a random semi-recent example) (actually last year, come to think of it, but the point still stands) a flower seller that helped me run off a belligerent bus-stop drunk who was waving a knife around (lucky for that rear end in a top hat it didn't happen this month) and then that flower seller shares a drink with me and then starts telling me about the fuckers from city hall who sent an Arab worker with a bulldozer to fix the road. How he "came this close" to choking both the Arab and the city hall fuckers, because he was convinced he's going to use that bulldozer to kill people. And...................... on the one hand, I'm annoyed and disappointed that my newly battle-forged brother is being an rear end in a top hat. On the other hand, I do understand him, given that it was the fashion at the time for Arab terrorists to use heavy vehicles to run over people. (I'm sorry, I mean "have perfectly reasonable vehicle accidents, only to be framed as terrorists by the nefarious Zionist regime") On that note: quote:Wow, glad to see you've made this concession. Yes, you've weakened it by trying to compare it to something else - doesn't work because yes, even in the US I would argue for the prosecution of anyone interfering with emergency medical personal resulting in harm; but that's for a different thread - but it's more than a lovely thing to do and you know that. It directly leads to death. It often is a crime. Why aren't you pushing for arrests and prosecutions? Does human life mean so little to you? As I mentioned in the thread, until recently I've been working on the coexistence / end to discrimination angle with regards to Arab Israelis. The "do you really want to turn a million citizens into your enemies" seemed to be getting through to people in a way more abstract ethical concerns did not. And now, the last few years. Which are not helping. I'm seeing people I respect - who I studied and worked with - going "so many local Arab students and workers have committed terrorist acts, I'm not sure I feel safe around my Arab co-workers", and I understand where they're coming from. And I'm seeing people who I never had a lot of respect for doing nasty poo poo to an innocent person they believe just murdered someone, as a part of an unending string of such murders, and I understand where they are coming from. So yeah. Meanwhile I'm doing my bit for the whole reconciliation thing, but that's more of an inertia thing than a conscious effort. ... In other news, re: "less guns". Kinda thinking that's just a knee-jerk American liberal reaction. The reason there are relatively (!) few fatalities associated with the stabbing attacks is that there was (luckily) always an armed person nearby to kill the terrorist right after the first few victims. Not big on the notion of giving more civilians guns, but pretty sure having fewer is not a good answer for much of anything. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Oct 19, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 11:04
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Cat Mattress posted:NB: these aren't 'marginal' politicians. These are Ministers of the Israeli state. Extremists in power. When I write "your post[singular]" directly after quoting said particular post, you should probably assume the post in question to which I am referring is that one. It seems sensible, don't you think? quote:So Palestinians are comparable to cops, in that they are given a position of power and authority that they sometimes abuse? I find this sort of sentiment very revealing. The analogy was clearly about lame rhetorical trick of demanding someone renounce some particular act of violence(and then another one, and another, ad infinitum). But that's not how you saw it. Once again it's the left anti-Zionist obsession with the idea of power relationships, as demonstrated in H.X.'s latest rant or Kajeesus's respones to it. In Israel(and perhaps even worldwide) Jews are an oppressor class and therefore cannot be considered victims. So something that's morally unacceptable when used against Palestinians(an oppressed class) is fair game against Jews(an oppressor class). The result is that it's not the act that determines whether or not it's good or bad. It's the target of abuse. Muslims are oppressed so Geller's bile is bad. Jews are an oppressor class, so it's ok to apply the same tactics to them. Kajeesus posted:E: Also, since you never answered this: Can you please elaborate on how Palestinians are not indigenous to the region, and how claims otherwise are anti-Semitic? There is no meaningful definition of indigenous peoples that includes Palestinians but excludes Jews. Attempts to fabricate one in order to grant Palestinians an inborn right to the land but to deny any Jewish historical or cultural connection to the land of Israel is clearly antisemitic. It's why antisemites hold to discredited conspiracy theories like the "Khazar hypothesis".
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Oct 19, 2015 12:26
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The Insect Court posted:The result is that it's not the act that determines whether or not it's good or bad. It's the target of abuse. Muslims are oppressed so Geller's bile is bad. Jews are an oppressor class, so it's ok to apply the same tactics to them. So whenever you're calling out the acts of a leader figure, you are targeting anyone under their authority? Assuming you're American, do you feel personally victimized when people criticize the Iraq war? It was instigated by an American leader, so naturally objecting to it means you must irrationally hate Americans and want to see them oppressed. The Insect Court posted:There is no meaningful definition of indigenous peoples that includes Palestinians but excludes Jews. Attempts to fabricate one in order to grant Palestinians an inborn right to the land but to deny any Jewish historical or cultural connection to the land of Israel is clearly antisemitic. It's why antisemites hold to discredited conspiracy theories like the "Khazar hypothesis". How does that have anything to do with the actual question I asked? You've explicitly stated that Palestinians are not indigenous to Israel, while you also strongly imply that Jews are. Do you have a meaningful definition of indigenous peoples that includes Jews but excludes Palestinians? Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 12:50 on Oct 19, 2015 |
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Oct 19, 2015 12:48
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The Insect Court posted:When I write "your post[singular]" directly after quoting said particular post, you should probably assume the post in question to which I am referring is that one. It seems sensible, don't you think? There are three Hong XiuQuan posts here. 1. The one with the quote about the Rabbi saying something that you strongly approve with every fiber of your being. 2. The one with the quotes from Shaked and Bennett saying things that you also strongly approve with every fiber of your being. 3. The one where HXQ mentions he quoted religious and political leaders. This is the chronological order in which they happened. Then you react to post #3 by pointing out that post #1 did not contain quotes from political leaders, conveniently ignoring that post #2 happened. The Insect Court posted:I find this sort of sentiment very revealing. The analogy was clearly about lame rhetorical trick of demanding someone renounce some particular act of violence(and then another one, and another, ad infinitum). The Insect Court posted:The result is that it's not the act that determines whether or not it's good or bad. It's the target of abuse. Muslims are oppressed so Geller's bile is bad. Jews are an oppressor class, so it's ok to apply the same tactics to them. The Insect Court posted:There is no meaningful definition of indigenous peoples that includes Palestinians but excludes Jews. Attempts to fabricate one in order to grant Palestinians an inborn right to the land but to deny any Jewish historical or cultural connection to the land of Israel is clearly antisemitic. It's why antisemites hold to discredited conspiracy theories like the "Khazar hypothesis". Remains the fact that you said Palestinians were not indigenous to Palestine. It seems you are attempting to fabricate a definition of indigenous that allows you to grant this status to all Jews but at the same time denying any Arab historical or cultural connection to the land of Palestine.
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Oct 19, 2015 13:07
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I don't know why you guys are still engaging with a well known I/P thread troll. Just put TIC on ignore already. This entire situation is awful, but it's more surprising to me that things haven't turned to violence in those areas until now. You can't keep abusing people like this under a brutal occupation and expect things to just stay peaceful. I can't imagine how crazy things may get when Abbas quits if nothing happens on the political front by then.
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Oct 19, 2015 13:50
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Sometimes I wonder what it'd be like to live in a dystopia and then I remember the existence of North Korea and Israel.
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Oct 19, 2015 14:59
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The soldier killed in Beer Sheva has been identified, meaning that his family has been informed. Meanwhile, the Eritrean asylum seeker shot and then attacked by an angry mob is now dead. It's like every anti-gun-rights-for-self-defense argument condensed down into a single tragic incident. An armed person being attacked, having his assault rifle taken and used to fire into the crowd, and a nearby would-be hero mistaking someone else for the attacker and shooting the wrong person (who, totally coincidentally I'm sure, was a minority) as a result.Hong XiuQuan posted:Huh, maybe I'm wrong. Could have sworn that after first wave of reports there was something that cast doubt on it. It definitely happened, but there is as yet no evidence that it was an organized, intentional policy, or that the government was directly involved in it in any way or even aware of it. We'll likely never know for sure since the investigation is about as transparent as a brick wall and has essentially vanished from the media, but rather than an intentional policy of sterilization, it seems more likely to have been an overzealous family planning services program in the transit camps combined with an unfortunate series of miscommunications, compounded to a ridiculous extent by language barriers, insufficient health services and support to Ethiopian Jews once they enter Israel, insufficient availability of translation services, inattentive doctors in Israel unable or unwilling to talk at length to the Ethiopian patients, and possible low-level misconduct on the part of the transit camp doctors. Rather than a malicious intentional program, it was most likely a terrible mistake that no one is ever going to admit to because it's super embarrassing and highlights major insufficiencies at every level of dealing with Ethiopian immigrants. Tatum Girlparts posted:I think the sorry/not sorry thing that happened was 'we warned them it may make them sterile (but also told them they should take it or hid the warning or some other stupid poo poo that makes the warning useless)' but yea it did end with Ethiopian Jews being sterile. No, it didn't. It was a temporary birth control drug that lasted three months and wore off with no long-term effects to fertility if not re-administered. No one was rendered permanently sterile, and given that the drug had to be re-administered by a doctor every three months to remain effective, it would have been an incredibly ineffective method of permanent sterilization, which would have required the active cooperation of literally every single doctor in Israel to maintain as a permanent policy.
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Oct 19, 2015 15:30
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Main Paineframe posted:
The first part of your post references something that's on video, where we can see a mob of people murder an Eritrean man while chanting Death to Arabs, and you don't think that the secretive administration of long acting birth control (that has also been shown to have significant, permanent side effects, in particular a severe impact on bone density) to a particular ethnic group maybe might have been a little racist?
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Oct 19, 2015 15:46
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captainblastum posted:The first part of your post references something that's on video, where we can see a mob of people murder an Eritrean man while chanting Death to Arabs, and you don't think that the secretive administration of long acting birth control (that has also been shown to have significant, permanent side effects, in particular a severe impact on bone density) to a particular ethnic group maybe might have been a little racist? It has transient effects on bone mineral density that alleviate after cessation of use . The drug has no widely acknowledged permanent side effects, unless you count increasing the risk of certain cancers that many birth control pills carry.
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Oct 19, 2015 16:01
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Megasabin posted:It has transient effects on bone mineral density that alleviate after cessation of use . The drug has no widely acknowledged permanent side effects, unless you count increasing the risk of certain cancers that many birth control pills carry. This is an important detail which completely changes the whole dynamic of the mass sterilization of a specific ethnic group that occurred.
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Oct 19, 2015 16:19
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Megasabin posted:It has transient effects on bone mineral density that alleviate after cessation of use . The drug has no widely acknowledged permanent side effects, unless you count increasing the risk of certain cancers that many birth control pills carry. Permanent side effects: not having any children with birthdays in a certain date range.
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Oct 19, 2015 16:22
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No one's saying it's not hosed up, but it's a story that's often both exaggerated and misrepresented. "Israel sterilizes black Jews!" is a very handy soundbite, but it's simply not true. It was not some kind of clandestine government eugenics operation; it was just a specific program that decided to provide birth control without its patients' consent, and was taken down once it became known that it happened. It's evidence that Israel's integration programs are not in good shape, and that some specific doctors were hella racist, but that's about it. There's no need to exaggerate or misrepresent the acts of the Israeli government. It already commits incontrovertible atrocities on a daily basis.
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Oct 19, 2015 16:40
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"Israel hates Ethiopian Jews and doesn't want them around (which is why they've spent millions bringing them to Israel) and therefore conducts a campaign of forced sterilization to exterminate them!" Well, no. "Israel is giving Ethiopian Jews bones diseases / cancer / Also no. "B-But 'Israeli occasionally give new Ethiopian Jews birth control without ascertaining their consent and clarifying possible side effects' isn't nearly as catchy!"* Sucks to be you. Can we just start from the last phrase the next time the thread comes back to this subject? ... * Not saying that isn't paternalistic and hosed up.
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Oct 19, 2015 16:55
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Sheesh you guys are ready to get hostile real fast with anyone you perceive as having a difference in opinion. I was simply correcting an incorrect fact, and made no comment about the broader scope. Just because what they did is horrible, doesn't mean it has to be made to seem more awful with false information.
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Oct 19, 2015 17:03
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captainblastum posted:The first part of your post references something that's on video, where we can see a mob of people murder an Eritrean man while chanting Death to Arabs, and you don't think that the secretive administration of long acting birth control (that has also been shown to have significant, permanent side effects, in particular a severe impact on bone density) to a particular ethnic group maybe might have been a little racist? Oh, I'm sure there was some racism involved at some point, and nothing in my post rules that out. That is not the same as there being a deliberate policy of permanent sterilization by the government, the NGO overseeing the transit camps, Israeli authorities, or anyone else. No one has ever proved malicious behavior on the part of any organization involved, or even really provided a credible basis for it beyond "how could something like this possibly not be a government conspiracy?" As for Depo-Provera itself, it is widely considered by family planning organizations to have benefits outweighing the risks of adverse health effects (much like oral contraceptives, which also have a number of significant side effects) and is widely used for the significant benefits to disadvantaged women that it holds compared to other birth control methods, with research suggesting that the bone density loss is neither severe nor permanent in adults. Numerous expert organizations, including the WHO, have ruled Depo-Provera safe to use for adults and the restrictions advised by the FDA to be unnecessary for adults. The reason that "for adults" caveat appears so often is because much of the concern about potential long-term side effects is focused on its use by adolescents whose bone structures are still developing, since the duration and nature of the drug makes it the birth control method of choice for women who need to keep their birth control secret even from close family members. And no, that level of potential secrecy is not necessarily indicative of nefarious intent; Depo-Provera is the most popular birth control drug in many African countries, including Ethiopia, because those societies often have very conservative attitudes towards either birth control or sex in general and reliable access to birth control is often highly limited.
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Oct 19, 2015 17:11
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