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Kim Jong Il posted:Husseini was a legitimate Nazi sympathizer, proponent/instigator of race riots, and generally speaking a loathsome, racist piece of poo poo. I think it's unlikely that he gave Hitler the idea to exterminate the Jews, though.
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Oct 21, 2015 01:48
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Kim Jong Il posted:Husseini was a legitimate Nazi sympathizer, proponent/instigator of race riots, and generally speaking a loathsome, racist piece of poo poo. Doesn't make him the reason the holocaust happened.
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Oct 21, 2015 01:54
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Isn't that obvious based on my statement?
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Oct 21, 2015 01:56
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Kim Jong Il posted:Isn't that obvious based on my statement? As obvious as following up "Bush did 9/11" with "Bush had a very good incentive to use 9/11 as a tool for invading the Middle East".
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Oct 21, 2015 02:01
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computer parts posted:As obvious as following up "Bush did 9/11" with "Bush had a very good incentive to use 9/11 as a tool for invading the Middle East". A point that would make sense if al-Husseini had failed to stop Hitler, rather than being an enthusiastic and public Nazi supporter and collaborator. Hong XiuQuan posted:1) I'm going to post news stories that challenge prevailing narratives in the west, one of which is that these cray cray uniformly Muslim Palestinians listen to crazy Mullahs whereas Jews in Israel don't suffer from hearing crazy religious edicts because they're not savage Muslims. There are several other narratives: the Arab savage who just wants to kill Jews; the thousand-year conflict; Israelis would give up anything for peace etc etc. Passing over your ludicrously biased mischaracterization of coverage of the I/P conflict in "the west", is replacing or responding to anti-Arab narratives with anti-Jewish ones superior? You're complaining here about the one-sided demonization of Arabs that you claim exists and yet your remedy is just to turn it around and do the same to Israeli Jews? Because you're not "challenging prevailing narratives", you're trying to construct your own with a flood of "click this link to see what the evil Zionists did" one line posts. Do you not see the irony here? Is any of this penetrating? quote:Now, if the post doesn't match either of those prisms then I'll likely respond to challenges. Otherwise if you think it's antisemitic, I'd urge you to read the articles anyway and arrive at your own conclusions. Hopefully somewhat matching mine. An article may not traffic in antisemitic narratives itself but still be incorporated into a diatribe that does. Consider, for comparison, the  tendency to weave isolated local news accounts of violent crimes into a narrative about a supposed national wave of racially motivated attacks by blacks against whites. The local news just-the-facts report about an assault that happened in town may not play to racist narratives but it's appropriated and contextualized in order to do so.
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Oct 21, 2015 03:01
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Kim Jong Il posted:Husseini was a legitimate Nazi sympathizer, proponent/instigator of race riots, and generally speaking a loathsome, racist piece of poo poo. So were many early Zionist leaders. That, to me, is one of the weirdest aspects of Zionism - the fact that it supports and sometimes even advocates for other countries expelling or driving out their Jewish populations, in hopes that those stateless Jews will be drawn to Israel.
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Oct 21, 2015 03:11
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So, TIC, how is the position of Israel saying that it can neither allow a people to have an independent state nor allow them equal citizenship anything but a call for genocide? It seems like the logical conclusion from taking away those options. Would a Rhodesia comparison not be fair in this case?
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Oct 21, 2015 03:36
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The Insect Court posted:A point that would make sense if al-Husseini had failed to stop Hitler, rather than being an enthusiastic and public Nazi supporter and collaborator. So you do think he convinced Hitler to kill all the Jews instead of just expel them.
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Oct 21, 2015 04:03
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It all comes right around back to Hitler 'gain an'gain
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Oct 21, 2015 04:41
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The comparison to Protestants is apt in the sense that if you bring up something a Christian Scientist has proclaimed and use that to tar all Protestants you would be laughed off the stage in any but the most New Atheist of milieux. Apparently Sephardim are the Jewish equivalent of Christian Scientists and 'leading Sephardi Rabbi' (Kikar's words) is a crazy kook. Your argument here is exactly why crazy poo poo Rabbis say need to be heard.
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Oct 21, 2015 05:47
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I think it's unlikely that he gave Hitler the idea to exterminate the Jews, though. Unlikely? Have you read anything about the Holocaust? The Einsatzgruppen were exterminating Jews with Wermacht support before Hitler met Husseini ffs.
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Oct 21, 2015 05:50
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Main Paineframe posted:So were many early Zionist leaders. That, to me, is one of the weirdest aspects of Zionism - the fact that it supports and sometimes even advocates for other countries expelling or driving out their Jewish populations, in hopes that those stateless Jews will be drawn to Israel. I recall menachem begin offering his services to the 3rd reich in ousting the british from mandate palestine. We live in a perverse age.
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Oct 21, 2015 05:54
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Apparently Sephardim are the Jewish equivalent of Christian Scientists and 'leading Sephardi Rabbi' (Kikar's words) is a crazy kook. Leading Sephardi Posek (meaning well-regarded religious scholar, not political leader) as said by Kikar Hashabat, a Haredi/Ultra Orthodox news outlet. Most Mizrahis are traditionalists, not Haredi, and him being a leading religious scholar doesn't mean that a significant amount of people are waiting for his OK to start killing disabled terrorists/random dark-skinned people they've decided are terrorists. You also did not mention the context: he was asked this question by a petitioner because a much more significant leading Rabbi in the political and social sense (among Religious Zionists, for example, an important constituency in this instance), Rabbi David Stav (who he has previously refused to address as Rabbi, there seems to be bad blood between them), clearly stated that you should not kill a disabled terrorist. Contrast this with Shmuel Eliyahu, another of the "kill the terrists"-supporting Rabbis, who is a much more threatening character. He's the Chief Rabbi of Safed, and has in the past pushed, with fellow municipal and other rabbis, for Jews not to rent to Arabs. The State of Israel, despite the fact that racist incitement is illegal, and that this is a public official (the Chief and Municipal Rabbinates are funded and administered by the State), was unable or (more likely) unwilling to impeach him. What are your comments on that, TIC? Hong XiuQuan posted:Unlikely? Have you read anything about the Holocaust? The Einsatzgruppen were exterminating Jews with Wermacht support before Hitler met Husseini ffs. It's hypothetically possible that Husseini sent Hitler a yet uncovered secret memo urging him to destroy the Jews instead of degrading and banishing them, and Hitler, until then ultimately a paleoconservative humanitarian, was taken in by Haj Amin's captivating Middle Eastern magics. It's about as likely as the Illuminati starting WWII in order to summon Nyarlathotep, but hey, one must keep an open mind.
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Oct 21, 2015 06:20
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Absurd Alhazred posted:What are your comments on that, TIC? That you're discussing comments made by a member of the actual Rabbinate and not some marginal ranter, and you supplied context and supplemental information that made the post more than just another one liner in a drumbeat of "fwd: fwd: fwd:Evil Israelis do something evil" links by H.X. that contain no commentary or analysis and seem to have no purpose other than helping him keep his throbbing hate rager from growing flaccid? If you're asking what I think of the naked bigotry displayed by Shmuel Eliyahu(or any of his ilk) of course it's disgusting and utterly unacceptable. Which is exactly how I feel about any "Jews are apes and pigs" hate sermon from an imam with official backing in Riyadh or Cairo or Gaza, not that such comments warrants the way the Frank Gaffney types wield them against Islam and Muslims.
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Oct 21, 2015 07:51
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The Insect Court posted:That you're discussing comments made by a member of the actual Rabbinate and not some marginal ranter, and you supplied context and supplemental information that made the post more than just another one liner in a drumbeat of "fwd: fwd: fwd:Evil Israelis do something evil" links by H.X. that contain no commentary or analysis and seem to have no purpose other than helping him keep his throbbing hate rager from growing flaccid? Sweet. Let me know when hate-preaching Imams start getting a free ride in the western media. And when translation sources of Hebrew media start getting widespread quotation on Western media. Thanks! At least you've condemned a hateful Rabbi. What do you think should be done with them TIC? Arrest? Trial?
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Oct 21, 2015 07:58
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Kim Jong Il posted:Husseini was a legitimate Nazi sympathizer, proponent/instigator of race riots, and generally speaking a loathsome, racist piece of poo poo. As opposed to the current PM of Israel who is unironically defending Hitler because
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Oct 21, 2015 09:17
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I'm glad that the idea that you should kill incapacitated terrorists is such a fringe view in Israel, otherwise that Eritrean asylum seeker could have been in real trouble.
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Oct 21, 2015 10:35
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 "All we need to do is to prevent Hitler from meeting with the Mufti!"  Credit: "John Brown" Edit: more here http://972mag.com/israeli-memes-mock-netanyahus-mufti-comments/113028/ emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Oct 21, 2015 |
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Oct 21, 2015 12:14
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This American Life aired a great piece on the Rabin assassination, marking the (more or less) 20-year anniversary and the wealth of Right-wing conspiracy theories that have taken hold of at least one-third of the Israeli public. That the Israeli public has so repudiated Rabin's effort to achieve peace, even after a national tragedy that ought to have rallied sentiment around his hard-fought mission, is among the greater tragedies of the last two decades.
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Oct 21, 2015 12:49
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Apparently Sephardim are the Jewish equivalent of Christian Scientists and 'leading Sephardi Rabbi' (Kikar's words) is a crazy kook. Because of the intense politicization of religion in many aspects of Israeli life, I wouldn't take any single source's claim that someone is a "leading rabbi" at face value, unless they're verifiably connected to the Chief Rabbinate or rabbinical courts. Many extreme movements, including fringe ones, have patron rabbis that their news outlets will praise as influential or leading rabbis - even if most people actually think those rabbis are crazy kooks. Kahanist media outlets will praise Kahane as a "leading rabbi", but in the eyes of normal people he's an extremist nutjob. AA already covered this in much more detail, but I just want to reiterate. There are a lot of rabbis who are literally employees of the Israeli state, and using their words to criticize Israel is just fine. For rabbis who aren't, their words can only really be extended to make their own particular religious movement and followers look bad.
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Oct 21, 2015 13:22
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The Israel -> Nazi Germany comparison is unhelpful and bad becau- *Isreali PM defends Hitler* 
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Oct 21, 2015 13:28
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Venom Snake posted:The Israel -> Nazi Germany comparison is unhelpful and bad becau- He didn't exactly defend Hitler, he just said it was the Palestinians' fault that Hitler was bad.
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Oct 21, 2015 14:22
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Cat Mattress posted:He didn't exactly defend Hitler, he just said it was the Palestinians' fault that Hitler was bad. It reminds me of the anti-semitic views that the Jews were responsible for jesus's death: it serves the dual purposes of blaming a hated target and letting the Romans, who you identify with ethnically, off the hook.
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Oct 21, 2015 14:25
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Strangely, it seems like the German administration isn't too keen on Netanyahu's comments and don't want to share the credit for the holocaust with the Mufti. quote:"All Germans know the history of the murderous race mania of the Nazis that led to the break with civilization that was the Holocaust," Chancellor Angela Merkel's spokesman Steffen Seibert said when asked about Benjamin Netanyahu's remarks. http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/After-Netanyahu-comments-Germany-says-responsibility-for-Holocaust-is-ours-428634
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Oct 21, 2015 15:22
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It's ridiculous, and distracting from what a nightmare Husseini was. Without his instigating, the war of 1948 and resulting refugee crisis may have never happened. Similarly, blaming Begin or whoever for the Holocaust is just as insane and counterproductive. As dumb as these two classes of statements are, they're not Holocaust denial, and it's insane to treat them as such. Husseini didn't instigate the Holocaust, he just, by his own admission, enthusiastically supported it.
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Oct 21, 2015 15:40
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I believe you'd find that some people were previously accused of holocaust denial for merely questioning some of the casualty tallies or other specific details such as the amount of holocaust survivors who were used as forced laborers in the work camps. It's a touchy subject and there are people who don't want anyone to question any parts of the official narrative, and to be quite honest Netanyahu's comment is a rather big 'gently caress you' to the official narrative as it divorces nazi antisemitism and murderous xenophobia from being the core motivation behind the final solution. The whole "The Lehi collaborated with the nazis (in order to save jews, which they did, but we don't mention this last part)" thing is fully retarded but it's only the kookiest weirdos who ever try to spin this into something along the lines of "the zionists are partially culpable for the holocaust" while the whole "Husseini was the true architect of the holocaust" thing has just been endorsed by the Israeli PM.
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Oct 21, 2015 15:50
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To no one's particular surprise, the investigation of the recent lynching of an Eritrean man is rapidly lessening in severity. The autopsy has reportedly concluded that although the man had several gunshot wounds and other "signs of violence" on his body, the first bullet (which was supposedly fired by a security officer at the man's "lower extremities") was solely and entirely responsible for the man's death, and that the mob violence and the extra mystery bullets were not a factor. As a result, the investigation will proceed under the assumption that the mob violence had absolutely no part whatsoever in the man's death, and therefore charges for murder or manslaughter are completely off the table. The worst anyone will face as a result of the lynching is assault charges, and some sources think it's now less likely that people will be charged at all since the mob is now considered not responsible for the man's death. Also, the security guard who fired that first bullet has already been told that there was nothing wrong with his decision to shoot the man, that he made a split-second decision (to shoot an innocent man!) that he could hardly be faulted for being wrong about, and that he will face no consequences for it, just like American cops do when they shoot innocent black people. Meanwhile, there are two basically opposite military investigations going on in that incident. One of the investigations is into the possibility that soldiers may have been participating in the lynching of the suspected terrorist, while the other is investigating the conduct of soldiers who were reportedly there but didn't attack either of the suspected terrorists. On top of that, doubts have been cast on yet another recent act of "vehicular terrorism" (possibly  , features images of a man being run over by a truck). It appears that what was initially reported as a brutal terrorist ambush coordinated between stone-throwers and a truck was actually the simple result of a man stopping his vehicle right there on the side of the road, getting out of his vehicle, and not looking both ways before he charges down the street to confront the stone-throwers with a bat. The incident is under investigation, but the photos of the incident appear to show a guy with a big stick in his hand stepping out from behind a van and right into the path of an oncoming truck he hadn't seen coming, while the driver swerves in an attempt to avoid him. This certainly casts the angry right-wing reports that the victim had previously been denied for a gun permit in a disturbing new light!
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Oct 21, 2015 16:08
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Wow and I thought the US justice system was farcical. How can anyone take "the mob technically didn't kill him (probably) so what they did isn't a crime" seriously? How bad does it have to get before someone in the US asks them to tone that down a tad.
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Oct 21, 2015 16:10
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They are not even trying to pretend anymore.
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Oct 21, 2015 16:11
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I believe you'd find that some people were previously accused of holocaust denial for merely questioning some of the casualty tallies or other specific details such as the amount of holocaust survivors who were used as forced laborers in the work camps. It's a touchy subject and there are people who don't want anyone to question any parts of the official narrative, and to be quite honest Netanyahu's comment is a rather big 'gently caress you' to the official narrative as it divorces nazi antisemitism and murderous xenophobia from being the core motivation behind the final solution. Holocaust revisionism is generally frowned on as much or near as much as Holocaust denial. In fact people like Lipstadt have criticised those like Nolte for 'soft-core denial'. Specifically comparing Hitler to Stalin is reckoned a form of denial in an attempt to de-emphasise Hitler's crimes. Imagine then comparing him to Husseini.
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Oct 21, 2015 16:12
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Kim Jong Il posted:It's ridiculous, and distracting from what a nightmare Husseini was. Without his instigating, the war of 1948 and resulting refugee crisis may have never happened. Similarly, blaming Begin or whoever for the Holocaust is just as insane and counterproductive. Why do you constantly try to truth in the middle this bullshit? In the year of our lord 2015 the PM of Israel has gone on the record as saying that a Palestinian leader caused the holocaust and your reaction is to enthusiastically indirectly agree with said PM lmao.
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Oct 21, 2015 16:15
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It's the only progressive, modern democracy in the Middle East. As long as you're defining progressive and modern as "the American South circa 1920", at least.
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Oct 21, 2015 16:15
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Main Paineframe posted:On top of that, doubts have been cast on yet another recent act of "vehicular terrorism" (possibly That article isn't too bad about it: quote:The hit-and-run driver subsequently turned himself in to Palestinian Authority police, according to Israel Radio. He has been transferred to Israel Police for questioning. But the reader comments, my god. quote:Batya Harris says: quote:Morris Schwartz says:
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Oct 21, 2015 16:17
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"Hitler did nothing wrong" -Benjamin Netanyahu
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Oct 21, 2015 16:23
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Radish posted:Wow and I thought the US justice system was farcical. How can anyone take "the mob technically didn't kill him (probably) so what they did isn't a crime" seriously? Eh, it's not as bad as "it isn't a crime". It's just a much less severe crime that carries a much lighter punishment (simple assault carries a 6 month maximum sentence in the UK and usually gets 6-12 months in the US) and which Israeli authorities might decide isn't worth the effort of prosecuting! Mostly what it means is that while people may be prosecuted for hitting him, nobody is going to be prosecuted for the fact that the man died, and the death will play no part in how police and prosecutors handle the attackers. That more or less means they're all going to get treated the same way they would if he hadn't died of his injuries.
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Oct 21, 2015 16:23
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Main Paineframe posted:Eh, it's not as bad as "it isn't a crime". It's just a much less severe crime that carries a much lighter punishment (simple assault carries a 6 month maximum sentence in the UK and usually gets 6-12 months in the US) and which Israeli authorities might decide isn't worth the effort of prosecuting! Mostly what it means is that while people may be prosecuted for hitting him, nobody is going to be prosecuted for the fact that the man died, and the death will play no part in how police and prosecutors handle the attackers. That more or less means they're all going to get treated the same way they would if he hadn't died of his injuries. I don't think simple assault is the traditional charge for shooting someone, though.
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Oct 21, 2015 16:27
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Main Paineframe posted:Eh, it's not as bad as "it isn't a crime". It's just a much less severe crime that carries a much lighter punishment (simple assault carries a 6 month maximum sentence in the UK and usually gets 6-12 months in the US) and which Israeli authorities might decide isn't worth the effort of prosecuting! Mostly what it means is that while people may be prosecuted for hitting him, nobody is going to be prosecuted for the fact that the man died, and the death will play no part in how police and prosecutors handle the attackers. That more or less means they're all going to get treated the same way they would if he hadn't died of his injuries. This isn't technically 100% accurate as Israeli law doesn't require either proving homicidal intent or demonstrating that an individual assailant was personally responsible for the fatal injuries for the perpetrators to face homicide or attempted homicide charges. But yeah, no one is gonna get charged with murder or even manslaughter cause that would possibly open the door for criminal charges against the people involved in lynching the various 'neutralized terror suspects' these past few weeks, and that's a very unpopular can of worms that the administration would very much want to avoid.
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Oct 21, 2015 16:42
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emanresu tnuocca posted:and that's a very unpopular can of worms that the administration would very much want to avoid. And yet, the can of worms they opened instead is better. 
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Oct 21, 2015 17:16
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For Netanyahu's reelection prospects it is.
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Oct 21, 2015 17:21
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Kim Jong Il posted:It's ridiculous, and distracting from what a nightmare Husseini was. Without his instigating, the war of 1948 and resulting refugee crisis may have never happened. That's giving him FAR more credit historically than he deserves. He was a fairly marginal figure; it's worth noting that neither Egypt or Jordan (both of whom actually instigated the 1948 war) put him in actual power over the Gaza/West Bank after the war. emanresu tnuocca posted:The whole "The Lehi collaborated with the nazis (in order to save jews, which they did, but we don't mention this last part)" thing is fully retarded Um... except for the part where they really did try to do exactly that (and were turned down) specifically because they wanted to make a fascist Jewish state and thought Hitler had some pretty nifty ideas in that vein. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)#Wartime_contacts_with_Italy_and_Germany None of this of course takes away from the fact Netanyahu has probably Godwinned the most Godwiny Godwin of all time.
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Oct 21, 2015 17:44
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