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Cleretic posted:Are you married/in a long term relationship in this example, a single mother, or on the dating scene? I'm just trying to work out if you get a guy on the ground floor with this, or if at some point you have to explain the Fetus Room to a date. Who let's their date go snooping in their basement?
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Oct 23, 2015 03:21
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Without being a medical practitioner, I'd say for an otherwise healthy foetus, if it could be born and survive without further medical intervention (ie the baby could just be taken home straight away without being in a humidicrib or something) then it's getting too late for an abortion.
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Oct 23, 2015 03:23
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In other news, the coalition still thinks climate science discussions with eminent scientists need to be balanced by a trio of IPA stooges: http://www.theguardian.com/environm...from-think-tank Maybe next time dennis jensen and craig kelly go to the doctor, the conversation can be balanced by an expert arguing that they would be better off killing themselves (I know for sure the world would be a better place).
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Oct 23, 2015 03:24
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Solemn Sloth posted:
Are you comfortable with a legal position that denies personhood to an unborn baby? So for example, a person who assaults a woman who is pregnant and causes a miscarriage is not liable for the loss of the pregnancy because there is no legal personhood before birth.
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Oct 23, 2015 03:24
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starkebn posted:Without being a medical practitioner, I'd say for an otherwise healthy foetus, if it could be born and survive without further medical intervention (ie the baby could just be taken home straight away without being in a humidicrib or something) then it's getting too late for an abortion. What if it could be born but the mother wouldn't survive?
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Oct 23, 2015 03:25
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Birb Katter posted:What if it could be born but the mother wouldn't survive? is this something that happens outside of accidents?
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Oct 23, 2015 03:27
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starkebn posted:Without being a medical practitioner, I'd say for an otherwise healthy foetus, if it could be born and survive without further medical intervention (ie the baby could just be taken home straight away without being in a humidicrib or something) then it's getting too late for an abortion. There's no way to know that for sure. And also, isn't that the logical equivalent of saying that is someone is sick or injured and won't live long without medical intervention then it is OK to kill them? Why do you apply the medical intervention test only to foetus viability? Also, don't you think there are cases where the foetus is clearly undeniably viable where an abortion is justified? I do, for example, extreme deformity that would result in a painful low quality of life for the baby (essentially the moral equivalent of allowing euthanasia for terminally ill people, which I support). Or how about if the continuation of the pregnancy threatens the woman's life? Or what if the woman was raped and this is her first chance of having an abortion due to circumstances out of her control?
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Oct 23, 2015 03:30
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Unimpressed posted:Who let's their date go snooping in their basement? I'm not an expert on dating, but I've assumed that at some point in the relationship the Fetus Room is going to come up.
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Oct 23, 2015 03:31
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I should add that for myself I am quite comfortable with the notion that at a defined point in time the unborn foetus acquires legal protection against deliberate termination, that is immune from the wishes of the mother.
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Oct 23, 2015 03:31
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Unimpressed posted:Bottom line you and the rest of the echo chamber self appointed enforcers can gently caress off. I am making a reasoned argument for a not unreasonable position and you are trying to hound me off the thread. Go gently caress yourself. You yourself said that your "reasoned argument" consists of a meaningless hypothetical which you don't think has ever occurred in reality, and your "not unreasonable position" cannot be adequately described. People are telling you to stop posting not because they're enforcing ~the echochamber~ but because you have literally nothing to post; you're defending a position that you can't define with a hypothetical you admit is nonsense.
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Oct 23, 2015 03:31
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Birb Katter posted:Kids say the darndest things. Haha, they sure do! But some adults do as well  At least with kids, you think, 'oh well kids' but with adults, "oh my..." Jumpingmanjim posted:Can you expand on this? Eh, they are just silly and ridiculous. Like telling me that I am a good migrant because I am assimilated well into Australian culture (which I still have no clue about what it is) - this conversation was brought on because my friends and I went into a pub, and there was not much on tab, so I just chose VB... does VB represent Australian culture? I did change my first name and my father chose it for me. It has a very similar meaning to my East Asian name ,and I am sick of people telling me how to properly pronounce my own name. We made that decision after I read an article that if you have non-Anglo name, you are less likely called back. My last name is also spelled out European like (since from like 70s). Well, some tells me that I am a good migrant because I have decided to assimilate. Some says 'that is not your real name so what is your REAL NAME?' and say if my parents know what I have done.... (yes my parents are aware of it. They do not care so why do you?) I did have a people telling me I need to speak English in public when I was talking to my mother on the phone and we spoke in my native language. <_<: That one was a bit of eeeeeeeeeeeeeh... because I thought it was rude to eavesdrop on someone else's conversation? Those examples are just silly, that's why I did not include before. But compare to before, it looks like more and more racists and bigots seem to come out and have no problem saying really hurtful things. Before, people hide it well because it is considered shameful, not it seems like it is more accepted? Just my personal experience. Unimpressed, it is a hard issue to discuss and very hard to put into the word. But it is, nobody else's decision but the lady in article's because we are dealing with her body, and her well-being. I read from news time to time how some ladies forgo their own medical treatment/life in favor of saving the fetus' even when the doctors recommend abortion/or give up on the fetus because the mother's life is in danger. These ladies often heralded as great mothers - an ultimate example of selflessness of motherhood. The lady in article also has a legitimate medical condition that warrants immediate medical attention. It is not her fault that the hospital bureaucracy dragged on and she could not get the termination when she first requested it. Why is it that when with the first cases, ladies who made their own choices regarding their body were heralded by others, and the lady in article was deemed irresponsible? Why is it okay for her to make sacrifice for her mental health just because she has few more weeks left for gestation? Have you ever considered how traumatizing it will be for her? Gilgamesh_Novem fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Oct 23, 2015 |
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Oct 23, 2015 03:32
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Negligent posted:Are you comfortable with a legal position that denies personhood to an unborn baby? I am very comfortable with that position. I am comfortable with it because the benefits of personhood to unborn babies are far outweighed by the harm. All you get out of it is being able to punish people more for something they did. The price you pay is far bigger in terms of womens' rights. Personhood is one of the anti-abortion lobby's back doors.
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Oct 23, 2015 03:33
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starkebn posted:is this something that happens outside of accidents? wiki posted:In those who are low risk, the risk of death for Caesarian sections is 13 per 100,000 and for vaginal birth 3.5 per 100,000 in the developed world.[3] The UK National Health Service gives the risk of death for the mother as three times that of a vaginal birth.[13]
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Oct 23, 2015 03:33
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I'm talking around week 36-37 of a pregnancy, I think it's getting to be a 'baby' inside a woman, not just a thing being constructed inside her. e: and if you're terminating at that age then the mother is delivering no matter what. starkebn fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Oct 23, 2015 |
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Oct 23, 2015 03:34
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Gilgamesh_Novem posted:
I usually hear this articulated as, "I want to know if they're talking about me." I used to think "No one wants to talk about you, fuckwit," but then a poster on the SA forums (perhaps an Auspol poster?) who speaks a second language said that it's great fun to talk poo poo about people in a language they can't understand so maybe there's something to fear about Johnny Foreigner after all... Not that I'm racist against East-Asians. I'm racist against Norwegians. You might think that odd but I would remind you that they invaded England numerous times and have never apologised for it.
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Oct 23, 2015 03:36
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Gilgamesh_Novem posted:I did change my first name and my father chose it for me. It has a very similar meaning to my East Asian name ,and I am sick of people telling me how to properly pronounce my own name. I have a non-English name too and by time I arrived here I was far too old to consider changing it having spent more than thirty years with it. I find that the people I choose to keep company with make the effort to learn how to pronounce it reasonably well and I learned not to get upset when the guy at the coffee place yells out "Ian" when my coffee is ready 
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Oct 23, 2015 03:37
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Gilgamesh_Novem posted:
Gilgamesh_Novem posted:Those examples are just silly, that's why I did not include before.
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Oct 23, 2015 03:40
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I have an actual English name (well technically Scottish) and my granddad got so sick of having to explain how to say it to other whities he actually changed it in his seventies. Take home lesson? People are dumb and stubborn in general. They can also be racist but the actual behaviour may not be directly related.
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Oct 23, 2015 03:42
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You have to draw a line somewhere. The only two places that make any sense to me are conception and birth. Conception is a dumb place to draw the line, leaving birth as the only reasonably justifiable alternative.
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Oct 23, 2015 03:43
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My line is the first time the fetus votes, if it votes liberal you can still abort it.
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Oct 23, 2015 03:47
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Gilgamesh_Novem posted:I did change my first name and my father chose it for me. It has a very similar meaning to my East Asian name ,and I am sick of people telling me how to properly pronounce my own name. My husband likes to retell the story of when he went to his mother's workplace for something, and the confused receptionist couldn't work out who he was there to see. Until it suddenly clicked and they pronounced the Indian name with a lot more stress on a different syllable: "Oh, you mean SO-and-so!" Good thing they cleared that up 
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Oct 23, 2015 03:48
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open24hours posted:You have to draw a line somewhere. The only two places that make any sense to me are conception and birth. Conception is a dumb place to draw the line, leaving birth as the only reasonably justifiable alternative. reductionist bullshit
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Oct 23, 2015 03:54
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Hey not to interrupt race or abortion chat, but where is a good recourse for checking out Health Insurance? Is iSelect a piece of poo poo or generally good? Basically me and the wife want to have a Needs are- Obstetrics Choose your own obstetrician (not sure if this is a thing that isn't normal or not) I guess am I missing anything baby wise on this? Just basically don't want to pay a million bucks when having a child, and have the best possible care of course. Also! Hospital care (We are young/fit enough but I guess what happens if we get in a car accident or something) Dental stuff? Again young/fit/clean but just in case something big happens would be nice to have something back, but I'm not sure how much this goes I heard it gets pretty expensive If possible Optical because I feel I need glasses and maybe Physio because the wife gets massages for her back sometimes (she's a paramedic so lifts a lot) Anyone know of a good mob that is decently priced/not evil? Price isn't the biggest issue but obviously don't want to be ripped off. Cheers
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Oct 23, 2015 03:54
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starkebn posted:reductionist bullshit Are you going to present an alternative argument?
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Oct 23, 2015 03:57
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open24hours posted:Are you going to present an alternative argument? You offered zero justification in yours. Given the range of views on this issue in the community, it seems to me like the line should be somewhere in between conception and birth. Where that is is a source of endless debate about trimesters and brain waves and foetal development, but it seems like the best path to a reasonable compromise for everyone.
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Oct 23, 2015 04:01
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Gilgamesh_Novem posted:Haha, they sure do! I was saying that Australians are giant babies in general, not just meaning literal children here.
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Oct 23, 2015 04:02
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Discussions about brain waves and whathaveyou are just a desperate attempt to escape the inherent arbitrariness of the process.
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Oct 23, 2015 04:03
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starkebn posted:reductionist bullshit What's bullshit about it? If you aren't arguing that the fetus' right to not be aborted begins at conception, you've already accepted that the fetus' mere existence isn't enough yet to give it absolute rights to be protected. As far as the moral side of the argument goes, birth makes sense to me too as the natural place to draw the line. For better or worse, that's the point the fetus has unmistakably become separate from your own body. Well. Not YOUR own body. Cause I'm assuming you're male.
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Oct 23, 2015 04:04
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teacup posted:Hey not to interrupt race or abortion chat, but where is a good recourse for checking out Health Insurance? Is iSelect a piece of poo poo or generally good? If you can afford it, also private hospital delivery. My daughter being born was very stressful for me (I'm a nervous Nelly) and being in a private room without a million people around us was quite a relief. Also, if you need IVF, maybe don't be with the same insurance company as your wife. I've been told that they can play games and say that since the husband isn't covered for IVF (and why would you be) they won't pay for the woman either. Don't know if it's true though.
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Oct 23, 2015 04:04
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Starshark posted:I usually hear this articulated as, "I want to know if they're talking about me." I used to think "No one wants to talk about you, fuckwit," but then a poster on the SA forums (perhaps an Auspol poster?) who speaks a second language said that it's great fun to talk poo poo about people in a language they can't understand so maybe there's something to fear about Johnny Foreigner after all... xD My mother will fly over and smack my back for having bad manners if I do that though. But even if I have that conversation in English, we mainly talk about family stuff, so nothing interesting. Unimpressed posted:I have a non-English name too and by time I arrived here I was far too old to consider changing it having spent more than thirty years with it. I find that the people I choose to keep company with make the effort to learn how to pronounce it reasonably well and I learned not to get upset when the guy at the coffee place yells out "Ian" when my coffee is ready Normally, I correct people if they mispronounce, but when they insist I am wrong and their way is correct... O_o; I have had this name since I was born, so I am pretty sure I now how to pronounce my own name? But yes, lately, I am starting to think about changing it back. The industry where I am in now does not really care if your name is Anglo name or not so... katlington posted:Lmao. People hear another language and think you're talking about them. If they hear laughter they'll think you're laughing at them. <_<: I hear people laugh really loudly on train and become irritated because I am trying to listen to soundbook through my earphones, NOT because I assume they are talking about me. People can be very insecure, or must think they are center of the universe if they assume everyone surrounding them is talking about them. It is very shocking to see how unpleasant people come out with no problem lately. I would have been smacked by my parents for being rude (and they taught me, if I do something bad, it will reflect back upon them and my upbringing so do not be that rear end). Bifauxnen posted:My husband likes to retell the story of when he went to his mother's workplace for something, and the confused receptionist couldn't work out who he was there to see. Until it suddenly clicked and they pronounced the Indian name with a lot more stress on a different syllable: "Oh, you mean SO-and-so!" Good thing they cleared that up I am glad it worked out Sometimes, I wish there is an easier way to write my name in English, but there simply is not. <_<;;; I also blame how the government of my native country changed ways to romanize the names... =x Apparently I have been spelling it wrong, according to the new standard!!
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Oct 23, 2015 04:04
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open24hours posted:Discussions about brain waves and whathaveyou are just a desperate attempt to escape the inherent arbitrariness of the process. I don't think so. The difference between a zygote an embryo, and a fetus is one area where the distinction is plainly obvious.
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Oct 23, 2015 04:06
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Birb Katter posted:I was saying that Australians are giant babies in general, not just meaning literal children here. Oh my bad... So sorry... T___T
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Oct 23, 2015 04:07
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Maybe in a morphological sense, whether it's ok to kill one and not the other isn't so clear cut.
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Oct 23, 2015 04:07
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open24hours posted:Maybe in a morphological sense, whether it's ok to kill one and not the other isn't so clear cut. Not being clear cut doesn't mean it's arbitrary.
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Oct 23, 2015 04:08
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Do you think it's not arbitrary?
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Oct 23, 2015 04:09
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Gilgamesh_Novem posted:Normally, I correct people if they mispronounce, but when they insist I am wrong and their way is correct... O_o; I've never had that happen to me! That would be super annoying, I think my head would explode. As in they don't even speak the language the name is in, who the gently caress are they to tell you how to pronounce it???
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Oct 23, 2015 04:09
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open24hours posted:Do you think it's not arbitrary? I haven't expressed my personal view, but I'm not going to reduce the other arguments down to a cartoon sketch. Arguments like bifauxnen's about the fetus' relationship to a woman's body are reasonable. Arguments from the other side about the personhood of a fetus after a certain stage of development are similarly reasonable. With a fraught issue like this, we compromise as the debate progresses.
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Oct 23, 2015 04:11
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Unimpressed posted:If you can afford it, also private hospital delivery. My daughter being born was very stressful for me (I'm a nervous Nelly) and being in a private room without a million people around us was quite a relief. Also, if you need IVF, maybe don't be with the same insurance company as your wife. I've been told that they can play games and say that since the husband isn't covered for IVF (and why would you be) they won't pay for the woman either. Don't know if it's true though. Yeah I've been thinking about it. I don't know if we'll need IVF (I guess you don't know until you know...?) but keep that in mind. I guess I just don't know where to start, the prices differences are huge, I don't mind paying for what I need but I honestly don't know what's going on. Who are you with! Were you happy?
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Oct 23, 2015 04:12
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Solemn Sloth posted:My line is the first time the fetus votes, if it votes liberal you can still abort it. So, you accept that assigning certain rights based on an arbitrary number at a point between birth and death is acceptable.
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Oct 23, 2015 04:12
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Solemn Sloth posted:My line is the first time the fetus votes, if it votes liberal you can still abort it. bad news for beet
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Oct 23, 2015 04:12
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