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enraged_camel posted:Why are fruits and flowers colorful? Because they have evolved to attract various animals (bees, mammals, etc.) and to get eaten by them so that the pollens and seeds spread. You should write a book. The world needs to know.
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Oct 23, 2015 20:04
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Trabisnikof posted:If only one of the native biomes of California was Oak Savannah or something.... Wow, way to move goal-posts. The guy proved you wrong with the studies he linked, and now you're falling back on "well, one of the native biomes in California is a type of savannah........."" yea ok
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Oct 23, 2015 20:06
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enraged_camel posted:Wow, way to move goal-posts. The guy proved you wrong with the studies he linked, and now you're falling back on "well, one of the native biomes in California is a type of savannah........."" Actually, the links cited in fact refer to the savannah hypothesis as only one of many theories. Nowhere in those links did it say anything about lawns being preferred to gardens. The only thing it says that could be used to count my point is this: quote:Studies in landscape planning unrelated to biophilia have consistently shown that people prefer semi-open landscapes with large trees and water over either dense forest or desert Native landscaping around the home wouldn't be a forest and doesn't have to be a desert. (Hint: people living in a desert probably should grow a grass lawn either) I have however seen people remove large trees so that they could get better sun for their lawn.
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Oct 23, 2015 20:23
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Trabisnikof posted:Actually, the links cited in fact refer to the savannah hypothesis as only one of many theories. Nowhere in those links did it say anything about lawns being preferred to gardens. The only thing it says that could be used to count my point is this: Without going into :biotruth: poo poo, what people prefer is entangled in cultural values.
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Oct 23, 2015 20:29
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enraged_camel posted:Why are fruits and flowers colorful? Because they have evolved to attract various animals (bees, mammals, etc.) and to get eaten by them so that the pollens and seeds spread. There are some problems with your theory seeing as bright colors can often be warning signals for harmful or poisonous plants and animals. The complexity of the human brain also means we can create connections that can overcome the kinds of subconscious evolutionary behavior you're talking about. Basically its more complex then you making it out to be so generalizing the entirety of humanity isn't doing you any favors.
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Oct 23, 2015 20:36
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I wish everyone's neighbors' opinions aligned with what was best for us and our environment I guess....
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Oct 23, 2015 20:47
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Trabisnikof posted:I wish "what would the neighbors think" wasn't such a critical question in what people do with their yards. Unfortunately most of the time what the HOA thinks matters because they can make your life hell.
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Oct 23, 2015 20:48
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I'd never thought I'd see a  argument about lawns. This is amazing.Just get nice little decorative "CONGRESS CREATED DUST BOWL" signs for your dead lawns, everyone. Problem solved.
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Oct 23, 2015 21:13
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Space-Bird posted:I'd never thought I'd see a I still want my "KEEP HETCH HETCHY BLUE" bumper sticker.
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Oct 23, 2015 21:21
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Choadmaster posted:I hate lawns as much as the next guy, but to claim that greenery and flowers don't exist in nature is loving stupid. Yes, because that's what I said all right.  BTW I'm gonna lawn shame because it's an important part of fixing the problem with wasteful use of water. We need cultural change as well as legislation.
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Oct 23, 2015 21:30
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Trabisnikof posted:I still want my "KEEP HETCH HETCHY BLUE" bumper sticker. Wasn't there some insane thing on the ballot a few years back trying to get rid of Hetch Hetchy? Like to 'restore it to it's natural habitat' (drain the literal aquifer that provides water to most of northern California)
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Oct 23, 2015 22:01
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Space-Bird posted:Wasn't there some insane thing on the ballot a few years back trying to get rid of Hetch Hetchy? Like to 'restore it to it's natural habitat' (drain the literal aquifer that provides water to most of northern California) Indeed. The people who wanted to drain it were loving livid that the ballot language said it would drain Hetch Hetchy. They prefer "restoring the valley."
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Oct 23, 2015 22:15
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Space-Bird posted:I'd never thought I'd see a It comes up every few weeks actually. Some people are just really really mad about lawns. Like really mad.
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Oct 23, 2015 22:32
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FCKGW posted:It comes up every few weeks actually. I like lawns, I wish congress would stop talking them away. This is a pretty good thing about lawns, except the super twee formatting they insist on doing. http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/lawn-order/
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Oct 23, 2015 22:35
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Front lawns are stupid, people don't even use them for anything. Like just drive around, how often is a front lawn being actively used other than just to maintain it? Maybe 0.1% of the time?
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Oct 23, 2015 22:40
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Space-Bird posted:I like lawns, I wish congress would stop talking them away. Yes, that lawn episode has been posted 3 times in the past 2 pages already. No, some people actually enjoy their lawns and aren't being "tricked" into believing their an English king or whatever it's supposed to prove.
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Oct 23, 2015 22:42
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Space-Bird posted:I'd never thought I'd see a
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Oct 23, 2015 22:52
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I don't mind lawns, actually. I have one myself. It's about 8% of the 3/4ths of an acre that I live on. I used to be about 20% lawn but, you know, the drought....figured it was time to go. I might bring a little bit more back but it's hard to find grass that feels good and doesn't take a shitload of water.
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Oct 23, 2015 22:54
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In any case, the artificial lawns now available are totally convincing from about 3 feet away, so people who want green all the time can do that without using water. Artificial lawn sellers in the Bay Area are making money hand over fist.
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Oct 23, 2015 23:00
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FCKGW posted:It comes up every few weeks actually. I'm not angry at all. On the contrary, the only people who are angry seem to be those who keep going on and on about "biotruths" or whatever the popular D&D meme is these days. All I'm saying is this: cultural conditioning is not the only reason we enjoy green lawns. In fact, the whole "cultural vs. natural" thing is a dumb false dichotomy. Often times, culture reinforces our natural dispositions, which would help explain why something that started among aristocracy caught on among the common folk. "Status symbol" is a very unscientific explanation, whereas humans' natural tendency to prefer savannahs is not (since it has been proven in cross-cultural studies).
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Oct 23, 2015 23:03
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A two-inch cut of solid green european grass looks nothing like a savannah. Jesus christ.
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Oct 23, 2015 23:06
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Arsenic Lupin posted:In any case, the artificial lawns now available are totally convincing from about 3 feet away, so people who want green all the time can do that without using water. Artificial lawn sellers in the Bay Area are making money hand over fist. Jesus Christ that's awful. Don't do this in Southern California everyone, the urban heat trap is already terrible. My parents re-did their yards using natives. It looks good and they get a lot of pretty birds that they never did before.
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Oct 23, 2015 23:12
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Leperflesh posted:A two-inch cut of solid green european grass looks nothing like a savannah. Jesus christ. It will if you hire a good gardener. 
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Oct 23, 2015 23:36
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Cicero posted:Front lawns are stupid, people don't even use them for anything. Growing up having to mow the lawn when you have allergies only convinced me that I would never in my life own a lawn.
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Oct 23, 2015 23:49
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Yes, because that's what I said all right. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:"Humans are genetically evolved to be attracted to something that doesn't exist in nature" --an idiot Just some stupid straw man. Please explain it if you like. People are inherently attracted to lush greenery. It's a thing. There are lots of ways to make your yard green, and lawns are a popular one here in the US. So is planting a lot of other lush, water-drinking vegetation. Getting people to give this up in favor of plants that are happier in semi-arid and desert regions (typically less lush looking) is going to present difficulties. I don't see why this is controversial at all.
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Oct 23, 2015 23:50
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Choadmaster posted:People are inherently attracted to lush greenery. It's a thing. Point being, people's imaginary tropism toward greenery didn't stop the French from thinking their formal gardens not only beautiful, but a triumph of civilization.
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Oct 23, 2015 23:57
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BattleHamster posted:Basically its more complex then you making it out to be so generalizing the entirety of humanity isn't doing you any favors. Ignoring the fact that people have subconscious biases isn't doing you any favors, if you're trying to sway people away from those biases.
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Oct 23, 2015 23:58
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Arsenic Lupin posted:"Attracted to lush greenery" and "Attracted to savannahs" are not remotely the same thing. Many types of savannah go dry-beige in the summertime -- see, for instance, the California oak savannah. And gardening is very much a matter of fashion -- the French gardens of the 1600s-1700s had patterns of raked gravel with topiary plants laid out in a formal pattern. Not a green lawn in sight. Rolling lawns with the illusion of infinite forests and hills smoothly connected to the house are very much an English thing, starting in the early 18th century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_landscape_garden You are ignoring that these were cross-cultural studies that involved people in all sorts of environments, and focusing WAY too hard on the word savannah. People like green spaces, particularly green open spaces with visible water. To our migratory hunter-gatherer ancestors who might have crested a hill and had to choose between a brown valley and a green one, a bias towards signs of fertility was an obvious bonus. The fact that nature can't be green all the times does not do away with the fact that green is a good sign.
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Oct 24, 2015 00:01
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Choadmaster posted:People like green spaces, particularly green open spaces with visible water.
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Oct 24, 2015 00:04
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California native gardening is not typically brown. These images: https://www.google.com/search?q=california+native+garden&source=lnms&tbm=isch look a lot more like a savannah than these images: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&q=suburban+lawn And, seriously, it doesn't loving matter. We can't afford to keep watering lawns, so we need to change perceptions, which we know for a fact can be done because many cultures worldwide have favored gardens that aren't lawns at various times for centuries. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Oct 24, 2015 |
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Oct 24, 2015 00:07
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Choadmaster posted:You are ignoring that these were cross-cultural studies that involved people in all sorts of environments, and focusing WAY too hard on the word savannah. People like green spaces, particularly green open spaces with visible water. To our migratory hunter-gatherer ancestors who might have crested a hill and had to choose between a brown valley and a green one, a bias towards signs of fertility was an obvious bonus. The fact that nature can't be green all the times does not do away with the fact that green is a good sign. You're confusing "green spaces" with spaces that are literally green. It is a term that encompasses native landscaping, gardens, etc too.
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Oct 24, 2015 00:08
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Then they shouldn't loving move to desert or Mediterranean climates. I, for one, like tulips and crocus, but I'm not spending $$$ to partially freeze my garden every winter. I don't think lawns are appropriate in this climate either. I've got a front yard full of wood chips and one lonely cactus. But that's an entirely separate discussion from whether or not people have an inherent bias towards greenery. Edit: Trabisnikof posted:You're confusing "green spaces" with spaces that are literally green. It is a term that encompasses native landscaping, gardens, etc too. No, you're the one confused. It's literally the color green that people like in their plants. A "green space" made of brownish or grayish plants is less appealing than one with bright green plants. Leperflesh posted:California native gardening is not typically brown. Not many of those look particularly lush to me. But you're right, a garden planted with the right native plants can look pretty drat nice. Leperflesh posted:We can't afford to keep watering lawns, so we need to change perceptions, which we know for a fact can be done because many cultures worldwide have favored gardens that aren't lawns at various times for centuries. Totally agreed. I just took issue with people calling enraged_camel an idiot for something that is factually correct. People have a bias - but that bias can certainly be overcome by other factors. Choadmaster fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Oct 24, 2015 |
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Oct 24, 2015 00:09
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I like lush lawns because they feel good to walk on with bare feet. But I'm not going to hide behind that or our supposed genetic desire for savannahs to oppose water conservation. Peer pressure (aka water shaming) is a great way to affect change before there is enough community support for legislative action.
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Oct 24, 2015 00:19
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Leperflesh posted:And, seriously, it doesn't loving matter. We can't afford to keep watering lawns, so we need to change perceptions, which we know for a fact can be done because many cultures worldwide have favored gardens that aren't lawns at various times for centuries.
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Oct 24, 2015 00:23
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Saint Fu posted:But I'm not going to hide behind that or our supposed genetic desire for savannahs to oppose water conservation. Literally nobody in this thread is doing that. I feel the need to repeat this because a lot of people seem to be misunderstanding.
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Oct 24, 2015 00:27
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cheese posted:As has been repeated in various ways in this thread and others, we can turn every front lawn in CA to sand and still run out of water if we grow Alfalfa in the central valley in August.
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Oct 24, 2015 00:35
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Choadmaster posted:Literally nobody in this thread is doing that. I feel the need to repeat this because a lot of people seem to be misunderstanding. FCKGW posted:Water shaming is loving stupid. FCKGW posted:Perhaps the cities and water agencies should handle excessive water consumption and let's not have everyone snitch on their neighbors because they use more water than you. enraged_camel posted:Green looks more pleasant to the eye than brown. You aren't going to change that by shaming people, sorry.
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Oct 24, 2015 00:35
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I think what Leperflesh did in his last post is a good way to go about it: show people that their gardens can still be green. It's not as pleasingly intense green as other vegetation (at least to me) but it's more than enough. Many people imagine a dead lawn or piles of gravel with a kokopelli statue as an accent and you'll have a hell of a time convincing them to change if that's the vision in their heads.
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Oct 24, 2015 00:46
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cheese posted:I think there is a difference between "We need to reform the way we use water in the state of CA" and "NO ONE CAN EVER HAVE A LAWN AGAIN". We in fact CAN continue to have green lawns as one part of our statewide water usage, but there does need to be big changes to the way water is allocated and consumed in CA. As has been repeated in various ways in this thread and others, we can turn every front lawn in CA to sand and still run out of water if we grow Alfalfa in the central valley in August. Oh I completely agree. Watering lawns is a drop in the bucket in terms of overall consumption of water in the state. But I believe we got started on this topic by discussing the very wealthy individuals spending many thousands of dollars a month to water their palatial estates? And I also think there's something to be said for reversing or fighting the acculturation that makes people prefer (totally unnatural) trimmed green patches of lawn, to (much more natural) varied gardens of native plants. Because if we as Californians can take personal responsibility for making good decisions about water use, we're more likely to insist on the government and private industry reforms necessary to make large-scale water conservation and sustainability possible.
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Oct 24, 2015 00:50
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Arsenic Lupin posted:My daughter and a friend drove SF-Fresno day before yesterday. They passed fields and fields of almonds, giving them the stink-eye as they drove, and saw a couple of signs to the effect of "What's wrong with growing food for money?" I thought those signs were pretty cute, but I was driving by fields of cotton at the time, so it was even more absurd.
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Oct 24, 2015 01:00
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