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Negligent posted:n. A thing that sanctimonious people use to criticise the choices of others Sorry, what was that about harm principles?
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Oct 27, 2015 08:48
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hooman posted:Sorry, what was that about harm principles? Ham Principle: It's the principle that the WHO is in league with Islam to stop people eating tasty meat because of ~*cancer*~
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Oct 27, 2015 08:56
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Negligent posted:ITT people who never had to read JS Mill at university We've moved on a little since 1859. You should debate Effectronica about it, he'll talk about why it's poo poo all day.
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Oct 27, 2015 08:57
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Starshark posted:We've moved on a little since 1859. So very little though
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Oct 27, 2015 08:58
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We haven't actually. Read the first speeches of people elected to parliament and dudes like JS Mill, J Locke etc get a guernsey a tonne of the time. Mostly by people that don't understand at all but still if you're going to namedrop, a solid choice.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:01
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Mill himself did a pretty poo poo job of explaining what he meant. Because arguably there are very few actions that contain their harm only to the relevant individual. Not wearing a bike helmet may seem like the worst personal consequences sheet home to you, but tell that to the guy who has to scrape your brain off the windshield.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:05
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Negligent posted:Mill himself did a pretty poo poo job of explaining what he meant. Because arguably there are very few actions that contain their harm only to the relevant individual. Not wearing a bike helmet may seem like the worst personal consequences sheet home to you, but tell that to the guy who has to scrape your brain off the windshield. Wait... you were agreeing with me? 
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Oct 27, 2015 09:07
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The high cost of Australia's addiction to 'pokies' Laura began gambling on slot machines, or pokies as they are known in Australia, when she was 20 years old. Within a few months she was hooked. "I loved it but it didn't love me back," says Laura, not her real name, a wobble of emotion in her voice. She is now 25. At her peak she was losing about A$5,000 ($3,650; £2,350) a month. "It would be basically all the money I had until my last dollar was gone." Laura had a decent job but she would pour all of her salary into the pokies and then borrow from friends and relatives to gamble more. "I lost my relationship. I lost my job. I went to pretty desperate measures to fund my gambling." 'Gambling problem' Laura is far from alone. Australians are officially the world's biggest gamblers, with each adult losing on average more than A$1,380 a year. That is double the amount lost by Americans and almost three times as much as the British. "Australians lose more per head than any other country in the world," says Dr Sally Gainsbury from the Centre for Gambling Research at Southern Cross University. "Australia definitely has a gambling problem," she says. "One percent of adults have a serious gambling problem which is actually a clinical disorder. Four percent of adults have moderate gambling problems and eight percent a low range of gambling problems." That means it is estimated there are a staggering half a million Australians at risk from problem gambling. 'Hypnotised' By far the biggest problem is slot machines, of which there are more than 200,000 across Australia. "Pokies are the biggest revenue generator," says Dr Gainsbury. "Around two-thirds of all gambling losses are through the pokies and in Australia that amounts to around A$9.8bn a year." It is incredibly easy to gamble in Australia. There are pokies in just about every pub or bar. Many pubs contain betting shops, where punters are able to gamble and drink at the same time, and there's nearly always a handily placed cash machine near by, often even in the pub itself. "My partner used to say it was like I was hypnotised," says Laura. "I was chasing the adrenalin of having a big win. There was just something about the lights and the sounds of the pokie machines. I would just crave it." Laura, now a university student who hasn't gambled for more than a year since joining Gamblers Anonymous, says she knew the odds were against her but she just couldn't stop herself. 'Lied to their faces' Gambling addiction takes many forms. "I knew exactly what time I got paid and I lost all that money before I even left the office," says Matthew, again not his real name, a 35-year-old IT worker. Matthew became hooked on amateur online trading sites, speculating on shares and currencies. He first noticed he had a problem not because of the losses but because of the amount of time he was wasting at work researching the markets. But soon he says he was losing more money than many people make in a year; tens of thousands of dollars. "I lost a relationship, my fiancee. The relationship I had with my mum went down the drain," Matthew says. "The thing that got most people was that I lied to their faces about where I was and about my money situation." Social cost Most compulsive gamblers have similar stories to tell. "In terms of social costs, it is estimated that problem gambling costs A$4.7bn each year," says Dr Gainsbury. "Gambling is something that affects not just the individual but the people around them. We're talking family breakdown, unemployment, work disruption and then things you can't even put a price on like suicide." With such a heavy social cost you would think the government would be keen to do something about it. You would be wrong. "Gambling taxes are one of the single largest sources of income for the state and territory governments," says Dr Gainsbury. "It's estimated that in 2014-15 they'll get almost A$5.9bn from gambling [in taxes]. This is over 10% of total tax revenue for some of the states." And if anything, gambling is growing in Australia. Chinese lure On Sydney Harbour, a huge new supercasino is being built by the Australian businessman James Packer. The A$2bn project is being aimed primarily at the Chinese market, hoping to lure a growing number of high rollers from Asia. "Chinese gamblers are being highly targeted," says Dr Gainsbury. "They're the ones who are expected to be staying at the five-star hotel and playing at the high roller tables." Despite the estimated 500,000 people here at risk from problem gambling, Australia looks set to solidify its title as the capital of big betting.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:08
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Bill Shorten posted:I want Abbott back. Welcome to the forums. Mr. Shorten.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:12
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hooman posted:Are you pro gun deregulation? I think Australia has the right level of regulation for guns considering their nature and the potential risk to other people. If the Government wanted to ban guns entirely then of course I would object, but most countries have restrictions on gun ownership. Social risk isn't the same as personal risk. Guns are regulated because of the social risk. Helmet laws are regulating the amount of personal risk a person can assume, that's where my issue lies. quote:What's a socialised healthcare system? You take the good and the bad with socialised healthcare. Part of the bad is the expenses of people who engage in risky behaviour, and plenty of people end up in hospital for doing dumber things than riding around without a helmet. It's a rather flimsy excuse to limit the behaviour of other people because it breaks down entirely when you consider people who have private healthcare. Alcohol is a huge cause of accidents, does alcohol need to be banned so we can save on healthcare costs? The entire argument is just irrational. You're paying for healthcare that treats people who smoke, drink, eat maccas every day and all sorts of conditions that are the direct cause of irresponsible life choices. That's part of the deal, you can't turn around and say "Well since I'M paying for your treatment I say you can't drink anymore, it should be illegal!" that's not how it works. The costs of obesity to the healthcare system absolutely dwarf the potential cost of head injury sustained by bicycle accident, but if you don't think it's reasonable to enforce restrictions on how often people can eat fast food in the name of healthcare efficiency I don't see how you can say that helmet laws are justified.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:13
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hooman posted:Wait... you were agreeing with me? Only a Libertarian ideologue reads Mill and think anything he says approaches their objectivist philosophy. Hell he was arrested for handing out condoms to the poor and was a first wave feminist along with his wife. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Subjection_of_Women SJW that Mill was, GamerGate is going to have a field day.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:13
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Negligent posted:If only there was some sort of government agency that collected data on this sort of thing so we don't have to rely on anecdotes. Personally I can't be bothered, but I'd be interested to see a comparison to statistics in Germany or England or the US or wherever and see how we compare. I'm going to emphasise that: every country, on every issue, should be compared to other countries and societies. Everyone is full of talk about the merits and disadvantages of alcohol restriction, and those of you in favour of it have glided around the fact that Australia is the only country that doesn't sell it in supermarkets. Stop being so blinkered. Ket posted:Say what you want, but I really like the fact that you can't buy alcohol in supermarkets here. I actually agree with this but shhhhhh it's the principle of the thing
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Oct 27, 2015 09:15
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Zahki posted:More or less. Australians have a strange attitude that Government should step in and remove personal responsibility to save people from themselves. People riding around without helmets? That's unsafe, so obviously it must be outlawed since people cannot be trusted to make their own decisions. It's the attitude of an overprotective parent and everyone knows it backfires, the rowdiest people at Uni are usually the ones who have the most protective parents and go crazy when they're finally let off the chain. You give people responsibility and say "Do what you will" and they tend to take that responsibility more seriously than someone who has been shielded from bearing responsibility and the consequences of decision making their entire life. The paternalistic attitude some have of other people making bad decisions so decision making needs to be taken out of their hands is strange to say the least. There are no 100% perfect solutions. There are good enough solutions. Most laws are good enough solutions. Alcohol is a recreational poison. It is permitted but should not be encouraged. The drinking culture can be helped by not having alcohol in a supermarket. Alcohol is a not a normal everyday product. It deserves its own shop with its own staff. Next up should be plain packaging for alcohol. Despite all that drinking culture in Australia is not as bad as the media make out. Total amount of alcohol per head has been falling from the 1970s. A bigger thing would be the closing down of shared social space, like live music in pubs, and bad night transport.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:22
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TheIllestVillain posted:
Am I the only one who sees him trying to  ?Granted his hands are cut to gently caress but whatever.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:23
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Plain packaged booze? But man, those Jack Daniels bottles are iconic. 
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Oct 27, 2015 09:24
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freebooter posted:I actually agree with this but shhhhhh it's the principle of the thing What is the principle? 24 hour access to alcohol? 
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Oct 27, 2015 09:24
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Yes because that is my right as an adult.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:26
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Anidav posted:Plain packaged booze? But man, those Jack Daniels bottles are iconic. 
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Oct 27, 2015 09:26
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Lid posted:Accelerationism is forever the dumbest and most petulent philosophy. Because the alternatives are working so well at the moment.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:27
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freebooter posted:Yes because that is my right as an adult. You have a right as an adult to 24 hour alcohol? What grants this right?
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Oct 27, 2015 09:28
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gay picnic defence posted:Because the alternatives are working so well at the moment. Climate change will probably be the ultimate accelerationism
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Oct 27, 2015 09:30
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freebooter posted:I'm going to emphasise that: every country, on every issue, should be compared to other countries and societies. Everyone is full of talk about the merits and disadvantages of alcohol restriction, and those of you in favour of it have glided around the fact that Australia is the only country that doesn't sell it in supermarkets. Stop being so blinkered. Laugh at me all you want, but I just checked a wikipedia article and things aren't as simple as you're making them out to be. There are other countries where you cannot purchase alcohol from supermarkets, some where you can purchase only low-alcohol content drinks and others that are unrestricted. I also learned that the government run alcohol vendor in Finland is called Alko
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Oct 27, 2015 09:30
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BCR posted:You have a right as an adult to 24 hour alcohol? What grants this right? The divine spirit of Australia. 
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Oct 27, 2015 09:31
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Better start saving for 100ha of survivalist heaven in the Tasmanian hinterland then.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:33
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BCR posted:You have a right as an adult to 24 hour alcohol? What grants this right? What right does the state have to deny you 24 hour access to alcohol?
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Oct 27, 2015 09:33
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freebooter posted:I'm going to emphasise that: every country, on every issue, should be compared to other countries and societies. Everyone is full of talk about the merits and disadvantages of alcohol restriction, and those of you in favour of it have glided around the fact that Australia is the only country that doesn't sell it in supermarkets. Stop being so blinkered. America, Canada, Scandinavia have government liquor stores that sell only alcohol. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquor_store
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Oct 27, 2015 09:35
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BCR posted:You have a right as an adult to 24 hour alcohol? What grants this right? It's extremely telling (and extremely Australian) that your associative word for rights is "grant" rather than "restrict."
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Oct 27, 2015 09:36
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SynthOrange posted:What if I made a helmet out of bacon.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:39
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The assumption that reduced accessibility will produce better outcomes in terms of people not abusing alcohol is more than a bit iffy Like the thing that stops people from drinking a bottle of vodka at 4am isn't lack of availability
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Oct 27, 2015 09:39
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BCR posted:America, Canada, Scandinavia have government liquor stores that sell only alcohol. You obviously didn't read that very closely because they vary a lot and in some cases only restrict the sale of hard liquor. For example in Sweden you can easily pick up beer and cider at a grocery store.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:40
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freebooter posted:You obviously didn't read that very closely because they vary a lot and in some cases only restrict the sale of hard liquor. For example in Sweden you can easily pick up beer and cider at a grocery store. Sweden can't be that easy for alcohol or those boozy ferry trips to Denmark wouldn't be a thing.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:41
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freebooter posted:It's extremely telling (and extremely Australian) that your associative word for rights is "grant" rather than "restrict." I thought that as well. The idea that you have no rights as a person until the Government deigns to grant them to you is very Australian.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:41
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gay picnic defence posted:Sweden can't be that easy for alcohol or those boozy ferry trips to Denmark wouldn't be a thing. I dunno, but I had no trouble buying booze in the supermarket in Stockholm, and it was a hell of a lot cheaper than in Copenhagen.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:44
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freebooter posted:You obviously didn't read that very closely because they vary a lot and in some cases only restrict the sale of hard liquor. For example in Sweden you can easily pick up beer and cider at a grocery store. You're confusing alcohol with fermented bread juice.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:44
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Please don't forget that some supermarkets in Europe sell Happy Wine by the can
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Oct 27, 2015 09:45
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Truly something to aspire to.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:46
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Despite how terrible living in London was, I'm proud I never sank to this:
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Oct 27, 2015 09:48
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freebooter posted:You obviously didn't read that very closely because they vary a lot and in some cases only restrict the sale of hard liquor. For example in Sweden you can easily pick up beer and cider at a grocery store. I took it to save me typing. I knew Pennsylvania and a couple of other US states have government only alcohol shops. The point is you were wrong to say its only Australia that has dedicated alcohol shops.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:49
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open24hours posted:What right does the state have to deny you 24 hour access to alcohol? Principle of social justice re health care and managing preventable differences in health among a population of people.
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Oct 27, 2015 09:51
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freebooter posted:Despite how terrible living in London was, I'm proud I never sank to this: Nice to know you had some class 
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Oct 27, 2015 09:51
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