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Shimrra Jamaane posted:So Netanyahu wants to take away the rights of all Palestinians living in East Jerusalem as retribution. He literally has no concept of irony does he? How long until he says it's time to liquidate the Jerusalem ghetto? It all seems so cartoonish.
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Oct 27, 2015 02:29
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Richard Lakin, who taught at the Hand in Hand school in Jerusalem, has died as a result of injuries from a bus stabbing several weeks ago.
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Oct 28, 2015 01:29
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Kim Jong Il posted:Richard Lakin, who taught at the Hand in Hand school in Jerusalem, has died as a result of injuries from a bus stabbing several weeks ago. For those unfamiliar: quote:Hand in Hand: Center for Jewish-Arab Education in Israel is a network of integrated, bilingual schools for Jewish and Arab children in Israel. Hand in Hand was co-founded by Israeli Arab educator Amin Khalaf and Israeli American educator Lee Gordon in 1997 with 50 students at two campuses.[1] I consider this act to be a bad thing, but then again the thread seems keen to insist that Israelis are terrible people and a bunch of pro-apartheid Nazi monsters, so maybe someone will disagree. rudatron posted:Honestly the Godwin comparisons are getting harder to ignore, because that is basically the equivalent of the 'stab in the back' myth. "We, in a time of crisis, were betrayed by this Other ethnicity, therefore violence against them is justified'. Do I really need to point out the unfortunate irony of posts declaring (correctly) that Netanyahu is a racist kook who despises the idea of peaceful coexistence and who seeks to delegitimize the other side because he tried to call the Palestinians Nazis interleaved with posts calling Israelis Nazis?
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Oct 28, 2015 19:14
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The Insect Court posted:Do I really need to point out the unfortunate irony of posts declaring (correctly) that Netanyahu is a racist kook who despises the idea of peaceful coexistence and who seeks to delegitimize the other side because he tried to call the Palestinians Nazis interleaved with posts calling Israelis Nazis? What elements of a genocidal regime do you feel are missing? You have violence, racism, authoritarian control of a specific ethnic group, and a recent attempt by the nation's leader to build a casus belli against an entire race of people. It's not ironic that that attempt is seen as both terrible and evidence of a nation on the ragged edge of mass murder.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:25
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Has anyone in this thread claimed that Hitler was innocent and that Israel was responsible for the holocaust?
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Oct 28, 2015 19:27
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We all love these, I think:  The original post by the shadow is actually rather milquotoast, I mean that by his standards, so I won't translate all of it, the tl;dr version would be "Richard Larkin succumbed to his wounds, he was a treasonous leftist but he still got murdered. May his memory be a blessing" The shadow is actually being as classy as he possibly can but his followers of course have a different idea.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:38
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The Insect Court posted:I consider this act to be a bad thing, but then again the thread seems keen to insist that Israelis are terrible people and a bunch of pro-apartheid Nazi monsters, so maybe someone will disagree. It could be possible for both of these things to be true, hth.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:46
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Israelis are pro-apartheid and pro-colonialism for most part if their electoral history, actual acts, actual statements, actual policies, laws, support for those laws, opinion polls and entire founding ideology and main tenet of their nation are taken into account. I suppose if you ignore all of those you can make a claim to the contrary The fact that not all Israelis believe this doesn't change these facts any more then it did for white South Africans, white Southerners, or yes, Nazis. Israelis don't get a pass. Doesn't mean it is magically alright to murder people.
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Oct 28, 2015 20:21
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The Insect Court posted:I consider this act to be a bad thing, but then again the thread seems keen to insist that Israelis are terrible people and a bunch of pro-apartheid Nazi monsters, so maybe someone will disagree. His murder was a travesty. Trying to use it to score cheap thread points makes you a pretty lovely person FYI. emanresu tnuocca posted:Pretty loving horrible. And sadly crap like this getting worse. Did you see the Beitar chant the other day about Rabin? I'm going to take this opportunity to say thank God for people like David Sheen who has been tireless in categorising hate online and in public, whether against Palestinians, Jewish Israelis, migrants etc - absolutely fantastic.
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Oct 28, 2015 20:51
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Pretty loving horrible. And sadly crap like this getting worse. Did you see the Beitar chant the other day about Rabin? I saw it, Beitar fans and their patron in the government Minister Miri Regev are burning piles of garbage. In news that might concern you given our numerous discussions on the topic, the northern discrete state prosecutor has just announced that the woman who was shot in the Afula central bus station following her pulling out a knife and yelling at a soldier was not attempting to stage a terror attack but in fact has a history of suicidal behavior and was attempting a suicide by cop. (Not to score thread points on the tragedy, but I think I've said it was a suicide attempt all along)
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Oct 28, 2015 21:03
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The Insect Court posted:Do I really need to point out the unfortunate irony of posts declaring (correctly) that Netanyahu is a racist kook who despises the idea of peaceful coexistence and who seeks to delegitimize the other side because he tried to call the Palestinians Nazis interleaved with posts calling Israelis Nazis?
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Oct 29, 2015 04:42
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I agree with you that the far right is gaining and it's extremely troubling, but your argument is not far off logically from Bibi's Palestinians=Hitler rhetoric, since Palestinians support their far right much moreso than Israelis theirs. Either people are going to whine about the far right forever or they can do something about it, stop enabling extremists, and work towards de-escalation and the peace process. Earlier today I was reading about BDS activists complaining about Zionist efforts to boycott their organizations, and it's really curious how much tunnel vision there is on this topic.
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Oct 29, 2015 05:53
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30.5 Days posted:What elements of a genocidal regime do you feel are missing? You have violence, racism, authoritarian control of a specific ethnic group, and a recent attempt by the nation's leader to build a casus belli against an entire race of people. It's not ironic that that attempt is seen as both terrible and evidence of a nation on the ragged edge of mass murder. Let's look at the card:  We're one fraudulent election away from bingo. (or maybe it already happened  )
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Oct 29, 2015 06:36
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Bear Retrieval Unit posted:Let's look at the card: Well sure, but even the US fits that. It's not a question of merely being fascist, there's no godwin's law for mussolini. It's a question of whether Israel is particularly likely to embark on a campaign of mass murder in the immediate future, and Netanyahu's comments make it seem especially likely.
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Oct 29, 2015 06:44
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Kim Jong Il posted:I agree with you that the far right is gaining and it's extremely troubling, but your argument is not far off logically from Bibi's Palestinians=Hitler rhetoric, since Palestinians support their far right much moreso than Israelis theirs. Either people are going to whine about the far right forever or they can do something about it, stop enabling extremists, and work towards de-escalation and the peace process. Here comes kji again to whitewash more of what Bibi actually said.
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Oct 29, 2015 06:47
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Kim Jong Il posted:I agree with you that the far right is gaining and it's extremely troubling, but your argument is not far off logically from Bibi's Palestinians=Hitler rhetoric, since Palestinians support their far right much moreso than Israelis theirs. Either people are going to whine about the far right forever or they can do something about it, stop enabling extremists, and work towards de-escalation and the peace process. Do you have any proof of the first part, because I got to take anything you say with a grain of salt after the whole it's okay to lie as long as it makes a bad guy look worse.
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Oct 29, 2015 07:02
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rudatron posted:What the hell? Where did I declare that 'Israelis are Nazis'? Are you brain dead? I'm pointing out the strong similarities with the rise of the far right, and how the rhetoric is coming together. The far-right is gaining ground in Israel, and they are remarkably similar to Nazis in how they think and talk about the world imo. It's the Israeli right that seems like a bunch of really dangerous and vile people, not Israelis in general. rudatron posted:Honestly the Godwin comparisons are getting harder to ignore, because that is basically the equivalent of the 'stab in the back' myth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law I could do that same thing with the Dolchstoßlegende reference, if the point didn't get through to you or if you'd like to continue to pretend you weren't equating Israel with Nazi Germany. I will admit that you did not make the literal claim that Israelis are literally Germans who belonged to the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei between 1920 and 1945.
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Oct 29, 2015 08:39
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Kim Jong Il posted:, but your argument is not far off logically from Bibi's Palestinians=Hitler rhetoric, since Palestinians support their far right much moreso than Israelis theirs. Right-wing Jewish mobs prowl the streets with impunity, screaming death to Arabs while Jewish shop-owners have to proclaim that they don't hire minorities to avoid their staff members getting viciously beaten and their shops ransacked. Israeli soldiers and ambulance drivers wait around dying Palestinians while illegal scumbag settlers are allowed to come up, take trophy photos and celebrate by the body (presuming they haven't kicked the person to death first). Meanwhile, Israelis have voted in the most-right wing government in Israel's history, giving public sanction to the likes of Netanyahu, Shaked and Bennett among many, many others. You have a serious problem with denial over just how right-wing Israeli society is at the moment. KJL aside - I'm currently rereading Avi Shlaim's The Iron Wall and it's just astonishing how much Netanyahu is reading from the Ben Gurion playbook. Definitely worth a read (or reading again) in light of current events.
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Oct 29, 2015 10:31
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30.5 Days posted:Well sure, but even the US fits that. That's... that's not a good thing.
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Oct 29, 2015 10:43
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MonsieurChoc posted:That's... that's not a good thing. yeah its kind of a huge and terrifying issue. weird how israel's closest ally is also a fascist nation
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Oct 29, 2015 10:46
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Israel and the US aren't remotely fascist, though. Yes yes, we can all draw parallels to Nazi Germany and Eco's ur-fascism, some of which may well be appropriate, but words have meanings. Countries can be lovely and racist without being literal Hitlers. Both are also populated by human beings, not some kind of inherently inferior "bad" humans. Yes, it's terrifying that someone like Bibi was democratically elected, and there are a lot of Israelis cheering on the murder of people with the wrong skin color or opinions, but demonizing the entire populace is a lovely thing to do. A ton of monsters were democratically elected, and you can find murder-cheering literally anywhere.
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Oct 29, 2015 11:57
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Bear Retrieval Unit posted:Let's look at the card: Pretty much every country fulfills at least most of these.
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Oct 29, 2015 12:06
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No they don't. Take Germany, how many does it hit? Certainly not nationalism, military supremacy, disdain for the arts, labor power suppressed, etc... Maybe corporate power protected, and probably some amount of cronyism?
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Oct 29, 2015 12:09
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VitalSigns posted:No they don't. -The nationalism one and the identification of enemies for a unifying cause should probably be combined, and the latter definitely does happen in Germany (with Muslims). -Rampant Sexism happens pretty much everywhere. -"Controlled Mass Media" is kind of vague, does this mean there's a significant state interest in media? -Obsessed with National Security is the mantra of the West for ~15 years now. - Religion and Government intertwined is again vague because does having a state sponsored church tax and having mandatory religious instruction count or does it have to be something more explicit than that? -Obsessed with Crime and punishment again goes back to national security and  .
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Oct 29, 2015 12:16
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Like two thirds of that list is just bog-standard Western right-wing views, and outside of fraudulent elections, is more or less accurate for the rest. Would you say all of Europe is a fraudulent election from fascism?
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Oct 29, 2015 12:42
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Kajeesus posted:Like two thirds of that list is just bog-standard Western right-wing views, and outside of fraudulent elections, is more or less accurate for the rest. Would you say all of Europe is a fraudulent election from fascism? France and Hungary, maybe.
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Oct 29, 2015 13:01
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Kim Jong Il posted:I agree with you that the far right is gaining and it's extremely troubling, but your argument is not far off logically from Bibi's Palestinians=Hitler rhetoric, since Palestinians support their far right much moreso than Israelis theirs. Either people are going to whine about the far right forever or they can do something about it, stop enabling extremists, and work towards de-escalation and the peace process. Well, the Israeli Prime Minister defended Hitler and continues to endorse repressing and slowly cleansing ethnic minorities in the country so at this point its getting hard to endorse the "both sides are bad" thing. Your truth in the middle bullshit makes no sense.
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Oct 29, 2015 13:06
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Kajeesus posted:Like two thirds of that list is just bog-standard Western right-wing views, and outside of fraudulent elections, is more or less accurate for the rest. Would you say all of Europe is a fraudulent election from fascism? Though I'd still argue the list is incomplete. Extra-legal paramilitary groups/mobs are kind of important because they help undermine 'rule of law' as a social foundation, which is necessary for the full ascendancy of might-make-right thinking. Which is what we're starting to get inside Israel. Disdain for intellectuals/the arts isn't sufficient, there needs to be outright hostility. I said nothing about Israelis in general you dimwit. It's about the saturation of ethnic-nationalist ideology, and how lies that scapegoat the ethnic other are gaining credibility, for no other reason then said scapegoating. Guess what the most prominent example of that is?
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Oct 29, 2015 13:46
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computer parts posted:-The nationalism one and the identification of enemies for a unifying cause should probably be combined, and the latter definitely does happen in Germany (with Muslims). Nah, those people exist and are loud and angry, but that's because they have no power or influence in a government that is taking in tens of thousands of Muslim refugees and telling the Nazis to gently caress off. Germany doesn't have Nazi-style sexism officially discouraging women from working and glorifying their place in the home birthing and raising the next generation of Aryan soldiers. The rest of your stuff is equally hyperbolic whinging about loud fringe groups that have no power.
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Oct 29, 2015 14:13
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A popular Haredi magazine with a message in arabic on its front page reading: "Hey, us Haredim don't even want to climb up the temple mount, we never would and are not to blame for jews from other sects who climb there, so please stop stabbing us". For real. 
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Oct 29, 2015 14:20
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emanresu tnuocca posted:A popular Haredi magazine with a message in arabic on its front page reading: "Hey, us Haredim don't even want to climb up the temple mount, we never would and are not to blame for jews from other sects who climb there, so please stop stabbing us". Goddamnit, they couldn't not have a typo in the first line. That's a stabbing.   .But seriously actually think stuff like this is kind of worth doing but maybe doing it in a Haredi magazine won't reach the kind of people who need to hear it.
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Oct 29, 2015 15:18
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Goddamnit, they couldn't not have a typo in the first line. That's a stabbing. "Don't stab us, we're the good ones; stab those other civilians, you stabby people you" is a bit on the nose, isn't it? As for the appropriate historical analogy for Netanyahu's bald revisionism, I'd actually go with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, because it's a fabricated story meant to implicate a whole ethnic group in a conspiracy which then justifies any malfeasance towards them.
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Oct 29, 2015 15:45
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rudatron posted:"Controlled media" isn't true, neither is 'supremacy of the military' (glorification is everywhere, political supremacy not so much) Pretty sure there is literally a military board which can and does censor media within Israel on topics of national security and that there is some fairly pervasive censorship of media that comes from the Palestinian Territories.
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Oct 29, 2015 16:37
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Kajeesus posted:Israel and the US aren't remotely fascist, though. Yes yes, we can all draw parallels to Nazi Germany and Eco's ur-fascism, some of which may well be appropriate, but words have meanings. Countries can be lovely and racist without being literal Hitlers. Hitler was democratically elected
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Oct 29, 2015 16:43
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JFairfax posted:Hitler was democratically elected Hey now, just because the Prime Minister of Israel is into historical revision doesn't mean we should indulge in the same. Hitler was appointed to the chancellorship of Germany, then used the Reichstag Fire and constitutional wrangling to ensure his position never actually came to a vote. It was the president who appointed him, Paul von Hindenburg, who was elected.
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Oct 29, 2015 16:50
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Hitler was elected in the 1933 elections as a Deputy to the Reichstag and as the leader of the largest democratically elected party he was appointed to the position of chancellor by the President. Therefore he was democratically elected into parliament and like most cabinet level officials in any government around the world he was appointed into his role, but he was elected to parliament.
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Oct 29, 2015 16:56
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JFairfax posted:Hitler was democratically elected http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/adolf-hitler-becomes-president-of-germany
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Oct 29, 2015 17:16
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Great derail.
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Oct 29, 2015 17:16
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team overhead smash posted:Pretty sure there is literally a military board which can and does censor media within Israel on topics of national security and that there is some fairly pervasive censorship of media that comes from the Palestinian Territories. You are only half right. There is a military censorship board, but it usually limits itself to actual state secrets. A court can also require that certain information about a criminal investigation remain out of the press. Otherwise all the information you would want about conditions in the West Bank and Gaza is freely available to you, if not that widely reported. And you can get everything online: as far as I know there are no restrictions on the internet like there are in China, which causes a lot of grief to attempts by the censor or the courts to enforce gag orders.
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Oct 29, 2015 17:20
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Ultramega posted:Great derail. Blame it on the Bibi.
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Oct 29, 2015 17:22
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