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Crowsbeak posted:I'll admit it, if you are explicitly racist against others You are a subhuman in my eyes, be it if you hate whites, blacks, Arabs, East Asians. Its all racism to me and it all to me ruins America and you obviously are fine with racism TIC. I disagree with this. Explicit* racism by minorities against the dominant race/ethnicity, while bad, is far more understandable and doesn't reflect as poorly on one's character. In general, I consider bad/harmful beliefs held by people who are educated and privileged to be far more immoral than those held by the poor/uneducated. There's less of an excuse for someone with an education and little suffering to hold harmful beliefs. * Since literally everyone holds some sort of racism feelings/beliefs DarkCrawler posted:Loudly and explicitly, most people do have internalized racism and are more then comfortable in sharing that in close company, including in North America and all of Europe. But for most people in the world I don't think you can tell if they're racist or not and it's usually not a supported thing to say in public in most countries. In China/Japan alone, you can pretty easily tell that most people are racist as gently caress against black people (and that's a pretty big % of the world's population right there). The racism just isn't nearly as apparent when a country is almost ethnically homogeneous. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Nov 3, 2015 |
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Nov 3, 2015 18:51
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(actually massive mindblowing steps considering the entire span of humanity and how long racism was a literal government policy everywhere)
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 hahaha I guess it was the Palestinians. those drat anti-semites.
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Nov 3, 2015 22:19
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NYT ran an opinion piece from the daughter of one of the stabbing victims who blamed her father's murder on Palestinians having access to twitter.
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Nov 3, 2015 23:51
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Real hurthling! posted:NYT ran an opinion piece from the daughter of one of the stabbing victims who blamed her father's murder on Palestinians having access to twitter. Palestinians being able to edit wikipedia is the reason behind the holocaust as well.
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Nov 3, 2015 23:58
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I didn't see this in the last two pages, but what the gently caress is this? New legislation establishes three-year minimum sentence and will also punish parents of children convicted of offence. quote:Israel has passed an amendment to the country's civil law establishing a minimum prison sentence of three years for people who throw rocks at Israeli troops, civilians or vehicles. Aren't collective punishments defined as war crimes? I mean I know this is a small drop in the bucket compared to the other war crimes Israel has already committed, but surely at some point the weight of the collective irony of what Israel is doing to Palestinians mirroring the events of the Holocaust has to wake them the gently caress up, right? Right? ex post facho fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Nov 4, 2015 |
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Nov 4, 2015 00:25
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You had guards at a refugee camp threaten to gas the Palestinians in the camp to death. The irony ship has long sailed.
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Nov 4, 2015 00:37
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a shameful boehner posted:surely at some point the weight of the collective irony of what Israel is doing to Palestinians mirroring the events of the Holocaust has to wake them the gently caress up, right? Right? Still rather more an ongoing Kristallnacht but nope, hasn't stopped them so far, why should it now?
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Nov 4, 2015 00:39
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Eli Samuel Parker, the first native american to be named secretary of indian affairs in 1869. He'd studied law for years before finding out natives couln't take the Bar Exam. He then became an engineer, but still couldn't find a job due to racism against natives. It was only his friendship with Ulysses Grant got him a job as engineer in the union army, where he excelled, and then as secretary, where his career was sabotaged by white racists and corrupt politicizns who had enjoyed how corrupt the bureau had been before. 19th-century america is still a better paralel than Hitler, I feel. Bury my heart at wounded knee is a look at where things are going.
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Nov 4, 2015 01:22
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MonsieurChoc posted:19th-century america is still a better paralel than Hitler, I feel. Bury my heart at wounded knee is a look at where things are going. They don't care, they just want to say "Nazis nazis nazis, can't you feeeeeeeeeel the irony???". I seriously struggle to think of anything specific involving the Nazi regime and excessive punitive steps against stone throwers but well, obviously there's no such connection to be highlighted by this 'inescapable irony'.
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Nov 4, 2015 08:03
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emanresu tnuocca posted:They don't care, they just want to say "Nazis nazis nazis, can't you feeeeeeeeeel the irony???". I feel like it would be trivially easy to find an example of a native american who got murdered for throwing a stone.
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Nov 4, 2015 08:10
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emanresu tnuocca posted:They don't care, they just want to say "Nazis nazis nazis, can't you feeeeeeeeeel the irony???". It's not so much the specifics of 'throwing a stone', it is systematic racial bias in prosecution, sentencing and collective punishment as well as persecution of ordinary shopkeepers, restrictions on movement, population displacements and, essentially, any ability to lead a relatively normal life. As I said, whiffs hugely of kristallnacht and the anti-jewish laws at the time. And yes, there are other parallels at different times in different nations, including the US but you can't call comparisons to the systematic racial discrimination in Germany irrelevant and, because of the sheer horrible irony, it will keep coming up. Comparisons to the Holocaust itself I feel are still unjustified but I don't see it as completely irrational to be worried considering the examples of last century. It is uncomfortable but the situation in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories are uncomfortable to say the least.
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Nov 4, 2015 10:33
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I don't normally follow this thread, but I saw an article in Haaretz that I thought you'd like to hear about. http://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politi/1.2768442 Basically the Knesset is going to deliberate on a new law that'll bar people who support the boycott on Israel and its products from entering Israel. This seems to include people who only support boycotting products from the settlements. Ynon Megal, who proposed this law, says that the boycotts are the same as committing terror against Israel (like wow, is there a way to oppose Israel without being a terrorist?). I have a relative who's a very vocal opponent of Israeli policies, and while I don't know if she does, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if she supports boycotting Israeli products. She already has problems getting into the country as is. 
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Nov 4, 2015 10:39
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NLJP posted:It's not so much the specifics of 'throwing a stone', it is systematic racial bias in prosecution, sentencing and collective punishment as well as persecution of ordinary shopkeepers, restrictions on movement, population displacements and, essentially, any ability to lead a relatively normal life. As I said, whiffs hugely of kristallnacht and the anti-jewish laws at the time. All of this is only 'ironic' if your earnest expectation has been for the holocaust to transform all jews everywhere into beings who are incapable of oppressing others. which of course is a nonsense position and no amount of 'it's different really buts...' gonna change the fact that the incessant comparisons specifically to the nazi regime are politically motivated and gracefully and intentionally ignore every single far more apt comparison in favor of this one comparison which is not very apt but achieves maximum controversy. I know it's clever to say "well, not 1942, but maybe the Kristallnacht? maybe the Nuremberg laws?" but those comparisons are also almost completely without merit. Is there racial discrimination in Israel? Yes, is this reminiscent of the 1933-1939 Nazi Germany... well barely, unless every single historical instance of racially motivated state oppression is exactly the same and equally as bad. There are far more apt comparisons, and then there are ways in which Israeli oppression is breaking new ground all on its own. If it's really important for you to make the nazi comparison that's your thing, but I'll stand by my earlier assessment wherein some people scream "nazi nazi nazi" at every opportunity cause they personally enjoy it (and this is not a blanket accusation of anti-semitism, more of a blanket accusation of sensationalism in posting). And really, for chrissakes, if you go 'isn't it ironic, don't you think?' at least make an effort so that the events you're cross-referencing do have some similarity that defies expectations in some way so that it really would be ironic, not everything is ironic, goons.
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Nov 4, 2015 10:56
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I generally think the Apartheid comparisons are more apt, especially with a right wing now calling for the Palestinians who do have rights to be denied them, and calling for open segregation of Israelis from Palestinians.
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Nov 4, 2015 11:06
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I dunno man, when your national identity is inextricably linked with being in large part a reaction to this one big horrible event and the rhetoric is 'never again' and you end up doing some things that (granted, with some squinting) are suspiciously similar I really don't see how calling it out is unjustified. I mean, yes you're absolutely correct it gets a bit tiresome for that to be brought out all the time when an example like South Africa back in the day is perhaps still more apt but dismissing it entirely I feel is not great either. You're right though that most of the time it doesn't really advance the conversation so I'll drop it here.
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Nov 4, 2015 11:07
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Crowsbeak posted:I generally think the Apartheid comparisons are more apt, especially with a right wing now calling for the Palestinians who do have rights to be denied them, and calling for open segregation of Israelis from Palestinians. Yes, Apartheid SA comparisons are apt, Manifest Destiny comparisons are apt, in certain aspects the US South in the first half of the 20th century is an apt comparison, the Babylonian captivity too maybe if you really want to go 2,500 back, knock yourself out. There is no shortage of apt comparisons, human beings really are just that lovely. But really, really, going "Mandatory sentencing for protesters? that's exactly what Hitler did to the Jews" just sounds hysterical. It's an attempt to have a discussion removed of any pertinent context whatsoever, it's meaningless, there is no Nazi equivalent of that, the Nazis did not manufacture a low-intensity conflict they used as a constant pretext to justify state terrorism and apartheid legislation.
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Nov 4, 2015 11:27
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emanresu tnuocca posted:
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Nov 4, 2015 11:34
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LeoMarr posted:
Translation, please?
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Nov 4, 2015 11:38
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Darth Walrus posted:Translation, please? Your guess is as good as ours really, it's a google translate botched message in hebrew reading: "2 holocaust continues upon you until you return the right to its owner, today and tomorrow to the sons of Israel you will -hide- [?] in your homes the knives of the intifada await you and ??????? your soldiers your armed ones." or something along those lines. Xander77 posted:Can I compare collective punishment to Nazi treatment of the resistance in Russia and Yugoslavia, at least? I dunno, can you? give it a go let's see if it sticks.
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Nov 4, 2015 11:46
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NLJP posted:I dunno man, when your national identity is inextricably linked with being in large part a reaction to this one big horrible event and the rhetoric is 'never again' and you end up doing some things that (granted, with some squinting) are suspiciously similar I really don't see how calling it out is unjustified. There's never again and never again, you know? The never again is "we'll never again let ourselves be victims of a genocide", not "we'll never again let a genocide happen". The Bible is a long list of genocides, sometimes punctuated by God's anger at a genocide not having been thorough enough, so when you build a national identity on some old tales that claim you have a God-given right to a stretch of land and that God urges you to kill anyone who opposes your claim, it's your duty as God's chosen people to genocide the unchosen with gusto. Amalek, the enemy nation that had to be so completely eradicated that even their cattle had to be genocided ("for the sake of the nation of Israel, we cannot allow these evil sheep to continue growing their antisemitic wool!", says the Bible, apparently) is the subject of a local variant of Godwin's law, as all sorts of people and things get called "Amalek" or "Amalekite" by people who can't form a coherent argument why something they dislike is bad -- and designating something as Amalek is calling for divinely-ordained total extermination against it. You can't have a real "never again" when you have so many "Amalek".
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Nov 4, 2015 12:02
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a shameful boehner posted:I didn't see this in the last two pages, but what the gently caress is this? Typically the "war crimes" aspect of collective punishment is more in the vein of, say, massacring an entire village or bombing a city because someone there shot at an occupying soldier. If your son was a resistance fighter, the Nazi reaction was typically closer to "slaughter everyone who lived within a mile of you" than "take away your government benefits". Punishing family members for their relatives' crimes may be collective punishment, but it's not nearly as war-crimesy as, say, for instance, heavily blockading and randomly bombing Gaza to punish the population for supporting Hamas (which is also collective punishment). NLJP posted:I dunno man, when your national identity is inextricably linked with being in large part a reaction to this one big horrible event and the rhetoric is 'never again' and you end up doing some things that (granted, with some squinting) are suspiciously similar I really don't see how calling it out is unjustified. I mean, yes you're absolutely correct it gets a bit tiresome for that to be brought out all the time when an example like South Africa back in the day is perhaps still more apt but dismissing it entirely I feel is not great either. Jewish national identity predates the Holocaust by over fifty years. And "never again" does not mean "never let racism and oppression and genocide happen again", it means "never let those things happen again to us, no matter what it takes - even if it means committing those same crimes ourselves". Also, comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, besides being usually pretty inaccurate, gets really tiresome in Israel debates. Nazi comparisons are overdone in general to the point where Godwin's Law is a thing, and anti-Israel people without much sense of nuance love to jump on the "victims of Holocaust perpetuating genocide of their own" narrative so these bad comparisons get made all the time just for the sake of someone's rhetorical flourish.
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Nov 4, 2015 13:20
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I dunno, can you? give it a go let's see if it sticks. Let's not go nearly as far as Kristallnacht or the Holocaust. Germans were hung for extrajudicial executions of soldiers and civilians. Do you feel that several Israelis at high levels merit trial for war crimes?
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Nov 4, 2015 13:25
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Let's not go nearly as far as Kristallnacht or the Holocaust. Germans were hung for extrajudicial executions of soldiers and civilians. Do you feel that several Israelis at high levels merit trial for war crimes? Yes. Though in a perfect world we'd just lock them in a room where they are forced to listen to Bibi give speeches for an eternity.
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Nov 4, 2015 13:30
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Yes. I'd drink to that.
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Nov 4, 2015 13:41
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I propose to the World Congress that we Embargo Israel until it stops it's cruel treatment of Palestinians. Unfortunately, I don't have enough City-State allies and China beat me to building the Forbidden Palace Wonder. Anyone want to help me? I've got some extra Cocoa.
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Nov 4, 2015 14:05
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Over the past month, 1600 people have been arrested for "disrupting order", about 400 of which have actually been indicted and charged with a crime. Nearly twice as many people have been arrested in Jerusalem as in the West Bank, but only half as many were actually charged. Also, an Israeli Jew has been arrested for sending a death threat to Ahmed Tibi on Facebook.
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Nov 4, 2015 18:07
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Genuinely curious, why aren't comparisons made with the Communist repression of the peoples conquered and dominated by the USSR?
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Nov 5, 2015 10:41
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Crowsbeak posted:you obviously are fine with racism TIC. I don't expect much to come of it but it would be classy of you to at least pretend to be paying attention to stuff like this Absurd Alhazred posted:Yes, they will be, if I catch them. Anyone with platinum is encouraged to report when they occur. If you have any further questions or comments about D&D moderation, there is now a specific thread in QCS if you don't have PM's. Despite appearances, I will take comments there seriously when they are serious. Cat Mattress posted:There's never again and never again, you know? The never again is "we'll never again let ourselves be victims of a genocide", not "we'll never again let a genocide happen". The Bible is a long list of genocides, sometimes punctuated by God's anger at a genocide not having been thorough enough, so when you build a national identity on some old tales that claim you have a God-given right to a stretch of land and that God urges you to kill anyone who opposes your claim, it's your duty as God's chosen people to genocide the unchosen with gusto. Amalek, the enemy nation that had to be so completely eradicated that even their cattle had to be genocided ("for the sake of the nation of Israel, we cannot allow these evil sheep to continue growing their antisemitic wool!", says the Bible, apparently) is the subject of a local variant of Godwin's law, as all sorts of people and things get called "Amalek" or "Amalekite" by people who can't form a coherent argument why something they dislike is bad -- and designating something as Amalek is calling for divinely-ordained total extermination against it. I know this may sound sarcastic but I am really honestly interested to know why you think you can express views like this and still not consider yourself(I assume?) to be an antisemite?
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Nov 5, 2015 10:49
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hakimashou posted:Genuinely curious, why aren't comparisons made with the Communist repression of the peoples conquered and dominated by the USSR? Because it's a stupid comparison. The goal of the violence directed against ethnic minorities in the USSR was to forcibly annihilate cultural differences and bring them into society on Soviet terms. There's not any attempt to "Israelize" Palestinians and integrate them through violence. It's like comparing the situation to South Africa, because South Africa depended economically on the labor of people under Apartheid and Israel doesn't rely on Palestinian labor to that extent, and indeed at all when you consider the West Bank and Gaza only.
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Nov 5, 2015 11:24
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The Insect Court posted:I know this may sound sarcastic but I am really honestly interested to know why you think you can express views like this and still not consider yourself(I assume?) to be an antisemite? "As long as there are knit kippot, the throne is not whole. That’s Amalek. When will the throne be whole? When there is no knit kippah." --Rabbi Shalom Cohen That's a lot more antisemitic than I'll ever be.
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Nov 5, 2015 12:02
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The Insect Court posted:I know this may sound sarcastic but I am really honestly interested to know why you think you can express views like this and still not consider yourself(I assume?) to be an antisemite? If Israel is founded on any principle other than that of Jewish supremacy why is the notion of a binational state so easily dismissed in Israeli politics? Before someone goes on about immigrants in Europe, Eurpean countries aren't conquering regions and then not allowing the inhabitants of said region any form of political representation be it in citizenship in any real country. Panzeh fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Nov 5, 2015 |
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Nov 5, 2015 12:07
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hakimashou posted:Genuinely curious, why aren't comparisons made with the Communist repression of the peoples conquered and dominated by the USSR? Ask someone in the streets of the US or UK what the Holodomor is or what Enver Pasha did to the Armenians and they'll probably not know. Ask them who Hitler was or what the Holocaust was and they'll likely know. The reason so many Nazi analogies are used instead of better analogies is because it's likely the single most widely-read (and written about) bit of modern history. It's the go-to pool. There's also a bifurcation between comparisons to specific Nazi acts and an assumption that any comparison must ultimately be rubbished because of the Holocaust. So pointing to Nuremberg laws, extrajudicial executions etc tend to be tainted because most comparators don't end (or haven't ended) in the Holocaust. It's particularly problematic because comparing any individual Jewish person, however vile a human being the individual may be, to the Nazis is now considered automatically antisemitic. It doesn't matter if Benyamin Netanyahu sees little Hitlers everywhere, the comparisons can't be made. Which makes it tough to argue by analogy because of course 'Nazis did this. Nazis were bad. You must be bad too' is easy. 'Enver Pasha did this' tends to be greeted by 'wuh?'
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Nov 5, 2015 13:38
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Panzeh posted:If Israel is founded on any principle other than that of Jewish supremacy why is the notion of a binational state so easily dismissed in Israeli politics? Well, not anymore, that is. (Unless one counts Russia as a European country.)
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Nov 5, 2015 13:40
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Could it be that people are so ready to equivocate between Israeli right wing nationalism and the Nazis because the Israelis tend to make the equivocation when they label any criticism of Israeli policy as anti semitic? At least you that is how it comes across to me, the (not so) implicit justification for their apartheid policies is to prevent something like the Holocaust from ever happening again. If anything the analogy is cheapened by all the dumb Bush = Hitler and the ready claim for leftists and rightists to tar their opponents with the brush of fascism, not when the people's who's national identity was shaped by the Holocaust seem to be walking down the same ideological path.
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Nov 5, 2015 14:08
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Hong XiuQuan posted:'Enver Pasha did this' tends to be greeted by 'wuh?' Effectronica posted:Because it's a stupid comparison. The goal of the violence directed against ethnic minorities in the USSR was to forcibly annihilate cultural differences and bring them into society on Soviet terms. There's not any attempt to "Israelize" Palestinians and integrate them through violence.
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Nov 5, 2015 15:30
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Ask someone in the streets of the US or UK what the Holodomor is or what Enver Pasha did to the Armenians and they'll probably not know. Ask them who Hitler was or what the Holocaust was and they'll likely know. The words apartheid and colonialism are easily as recognizable though, and it is laughably easy to prove both with Israel, while Nazis are several orders of magnitude beyond anything Israel or any country is doing today in crimes and literally anyone who isn't a complete retard ideologue recognizes this fact.
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Nov 5, 2015 15:59
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Ask someone in the streets of the US or UK what the Holodomor is or what Enver Pasha did to the Armenians and they'll probably not know. Ask them who Hitler was or what the Holocaust was and they'll likely know. I would think a bigger problem with comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is that it's not even remotely accurate. There isn't some kind of magic immunity field Israel gets from Nazi comparisons because of the Holocaust, it's just a plain bad analogy. If you're trying to make that analogy, it's because "I think you are bad, I think the Nazis are really bad, so I'm going to hyperbolically compare you to Nazis to demonstrate how bad I think you are".
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Nov 5, 2015 16:42
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Remind me again what the danger is in "cheapening comparisons to Nazi Germany"? What does that even look like? Just answer clearly and explicitly what the absolute worst case scenario is that takes place when the comparison is permitted to stand. I mean, sure its an effective rhetorical tactic that draws easy connections between the parade of right wing nationalists responsible for the subjugation and murder of an entire people and Nazis, but have you considered that should the Dark Lord Sauron take power in the near future comparisons to Hitler would be so cheapened as to not even make him feel a little guilty?
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Nov 5, 2015 17:29
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The Insect Court posted:I don't expect much to come of it but it would be classy of you to at least pretend to be paying attention to stuff like this So now Absurd a Jew is an antisemite. Makes alot of sense. Meanwhile I am reading on pro Palestinian websites that Netenyahu didn't attend ceremonies commemorating the murder of Rabin, is this true? Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Nov 5, 2015 |
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Nov 5, 2015 17:31
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Well now you've done it! The equivocation fairy has resigned her post and all the world's historical comparison tokens have vanished. Thanks a lot, Hitler sayers!
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Nov 5, 2015 17:33
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