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TooManyUzukis posted:Let me add a fourth one on to that: time. If your raid group runs 3+ hours a day several days of the week, you will clear things much faster than a group that only runs 2 hours a day only a few times a week. Nooooo, don't concern yourself with fact that world first raiders play 10+ hours a day, 7 days a week. Chyea would much rather you think that its an abundance of skill that has led to his "accomplishment" Belzac posted:This game is super easy, just load up my world first clear and input the exact same actions at the exact same time and you should easily be able to clear. You can't do that? Well I did it just fine. 
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Nov 7, 2015 21:45
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Belzac posted:This game is super easy, just load up my world first clear and input the exact same actions at the exact same time and you should easily be able to clear. You can't do that? Well I did it just fine. "catgirl me the gently caress up, Cheya" 
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Nov 7, 2015 21:46
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Velthice posted:i don't know why you would try and debate with some goon mmo player who does world first progression and expect them to have reasonable opinions, or relate to the normal person playing this game, or not be a doofus... imo any and all communications with goons should be kept to a minimum especially games/mmo/adtrw/pyf goons
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Nov 7, 2015 21:47
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TooManyUzukis posted:Let me add a fourth one on to that: time. If your raid group runs 3+ hours a day several days of the week, you will clear things much faster than a group that only runs 2 hours a day only a few times a week. I will cede to you that time is an important factor but, please, consider the amount of wasted time the average raid team occupies with repeating the same error over and over again without change. "Oh, we wiped to Digititus again, great mechanic SE, pulling in 10. <se.6>" I'm willing to bet that most groups struggling with A3S will chalk something up to RNG or server ticks or whatever rather than something like player movement and that wastes far more hours than learning to play X class on Y fight. We played a lot of during progression but not as much as you'd think actually fighting the boss. A lot of time was just spent bouncing ideas off each other, looking at previous pull videos, and simply going over exact positioning and cooldowns for each phase. When someone made a mistake or a strategical flaw revealed, we went over it before the next pull. When we had to try different things for solving mechanics we made sure everyone knew what their role was so we could get 10~ seconds further. Chyea fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Nov 7, 2015 |
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Nov 7, 2015 21:47
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Chyea posted:I will cede to you that time is an important factor but, please, consider the amount of wasted time the average raid team occupies with repeating the same error over and over again without change. "Oh, we wiped to Digititus again, great mechanic SE, pulling in 10. <se.6>" I'm willing to bet that most groups struggling with A3S will chalk something up to RNG or server ticks or whatever rather than something like player movement and that wastes far more hours than learning to play X class on Y fight.
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Nov 7, 2015 21:49
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There's a catch-22 there: the more time you have, the less talking hurts your ability to complete the content. If you're only getting 6 hours a week in, relative to the 15-20+ some hardcore groups do, taking 5 or 10 minutes to talk in between wipes is a much bigger hit.
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Nov 7, 2015 21:51
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Niton posted:There's a catch-22 there: the more time you have, the less talking hurts your ability to complete the content. If you're only getting 6 hours a week in, relative to the 15-20+ some hardcore groups do, taking 5 or 10 minutes to talk in between wipes is a much bigger hit. really if you have anything to say between wipes other than "ready" you're too casual for raiding
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Nov 7, 2015 21:52
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Martman posted:There are groups like this, but you're speculating pretty baselessly on who falls into that category. I'm surrounded by raid teams of different calibers, I can absolutely say that most, if not all, of the struggling and fatiguing raid teams I've encountered have this pattern of behavior. If you guys wanna paint me like the bad guy, go ahead. I just think it's a shame that SE can't implement hard content without such backlash.
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Nov 7, 2015 21:56
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Robo Reagan posted:really if you have anything to say between wipes other than "ready" you're too casual for raiding We had to go with mostly Party Finder people for A2S learning this week and needless to say they were very bad but my favorite was this one healer who was very easy to get going on and on about how FFXI was the most amazing game and this one pales in comparison. We didn't get to any new waves but it was incredibly entertaining 
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Nov 7, 2015 21:56
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I'm actually interested in your opinions on why raid teams are struggling. If it's not a general miasma of raider competence, or lack-thereof, what is it? Put in another way, if you think the players in your group are "good" what is the reason a collection of "good" players are having trouble with content?
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Nov 7, 2015 22:04
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My raid is failing because our healers aren't healing in introspection stance.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:07
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i hope they delay 3.1 so this show can keep on trucking for a while longer
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Nov 7, 2015 22:07
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Chyea posted:I'm actually interested in your opinions on why raid teams are struggling. If it's not a general miasma of raider competence, or lack-thereof, what is it? Because most people are actually sensible and stop playing the video game when it stops being fun. That's it. That's the entire reason. It stops being fun for x, y, or z reason and then they stop playing.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:09
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Chyea posted:I'm actually interested in your opinions on why raid teams are struggling. If it's not a general miasma of raider competence, or lack-thereof, what is it? The design of the content mayhaps?
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Nov 7, 2015 22:09
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Chyea posted:Put in another way, if you think the players in your group are "good" what is the reason a collection of "good" players are having trouble with content? Difficulties with time caused us to have between 4 and 5 hours a week for almost all of Alex Savage. Some of members felt we spent too much time talking, because there were nights we only pulled maybe a dozen times in 3 hours, even though the pulls were more successful. The lack of forward progress eventually caused a schism between the two groups of players, and we haven't really been able to recover from that because there aren't many qualified players looking. Why aren't players looking? Because it feels kind of hopeless to be starting right now with how difficult and unfun A3S is to learn.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:13
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Niton posted:Difficulties with time caused us to have between 4 and 5 hours a week for almost all of Alex Savage. Some of members felt we spent too much time talking, because there were nights we only pulled maybe a dozen times in 3 hours, even though the pulls were more successful. The lack of forward progress eventually caused a schism between the two groups of players, and we haven't really been able to recover from that because there aren't many qualified players looking. I do wish there was a way to facilitate static merging, it seems like a lot of groups would be better off if they found the other half-static in a similar timeslot and teamed up, even if temporarily, but it's kind of a logistical nightmare with the current tools available.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:17
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Boten Anna posted:I do wish there was a way to facilitate static merging, it seems like a lot of groups would be better off if they found the other half-static in a similar timeslot and teamed up, even if temporarily, but it's kind of a logistical nightmare with the current tools available. Yeah, we raid on Fridays and Saturdays. Logistically, it's a nightmare - the people we've tried recruiting on Tues/Wed don't show up on Friday, and it's hard to find quality players day-of since they tend to finish A2S before half my group has even logged on for the week. And if I wanted to learn on my own, I only had Sun/Mon.. which there wasn't really much room for, or often requires people with experience past add phase for A3S. I think I am a good player - I used to raid bleeding-edge in WoW, and I find myself performing exceptionally relative to my peers at every aspect of the game that i've tried. But I also want to play with my friends, and at this point in my MMO "career" that outweighs my desire to get into a 1%-style group. My friends were good enough to clear T5, T9 and T13 before echo, despite having to take lots of weeks off thanks to scheduling / real life stuff.. but A3S is just so soul draining they don't especially want any part of it. Niton fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Nov 7, 2015 |
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Nov 7, 2015 22:19
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Chyea posted:I'm actually interested in your opinions on why raid teams are struggling. If it's not a general miasma of raider competence, or lack-thereof, what is it? for instance, we would intentionally limit break to get past phase transitions on A4S so we could see more of the final phase before we were "practiced enough" to see that final phase. Letting people practice how to do the sacrifices on the Steam Regulators before it was going to be critical that they didn't fail was extremely time-saving.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:24
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This has just been a really rough raid tier all around. Even the PBC groups I'd see blaze through First/Second/Final Coil and have T5/T9/T13 easily on farm are limping to the finish line now. As a side note, I think it's funny that Chyea is citing the parse of "a relatively casual group in Elysium" as evidence, because he might as well be trying to compare a second-string NBA team to a local rec center league team
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Nov 7, 2015 22:38
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Chyea posted:I will cede to you that time is an important factor but, please, consider the amount of wasted time the average raid team occupies with repeating the same error over and over again without change. "Oh, we wiped to Digititus again, great mechanic SE, pulling in 10. <se.6>" I'm willing to bet that most groups struggling with A3S will chalk something up to RNG or server ticks or whatever rather than something like player movement and that wastes far more hours than learning to play X class on Y fight. I have to agree with this. Usually after a wipe, my static takes a minute to two to wait for cooldowns, and while we're waiting we talk about what went wrong and how we can fix it. Usually the problem gets solved after a pull or two. I'd say we're making our way through A3S fairly well considering we only do it 1-2 nights a week. But every week so far we've made clear progress on it, so we don't feel particularly demoralized. Sometimes we do get hosed by server ticks or whatever, but we've learned to take those in stride. Tomorrow we're going to be working on getting over the protean/sluice hump.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:38
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Niton posted:I think I am a good player - I used to raid bleeding-edge in WoW, and I find myself performing exceptionally relative to my peers at every aspect of the game that i've tried. But I also want to play with my friends. My friends were good enough to clear T5, T9 and T13 before echo, despite having to take lots of weeks off thanks to scheduling / real life stuff.. but A3S is just so soul draining they don't especially want any part of it. Yeah same, the only thing I feel like I'm raiding right now are conflicting schedules and people who think they can just hop in with us to get carried despite never doing the fight before, or being extremely bad and/or undergeared at their role, and all the time lost looking for replacements/fillins and spending time catching them up and teaching them only to have them leave, then when we do find people to help us clear they tend to onechest us which is nice but massively slows down our gear progression. Like the core group that is showing up for raids should have beaten A2S long ago but thanks to all this chucklefuckery we've had a grand total of 2 productive sessions working on it, one of them was only like a half hour long. Meanwhile I have A1S practically memorized down to the GCD and yet we often waste an entire raid night finding people to fill out the group who simultaneously aren't bad and don't have a clear that week. But like, we all enjoy each others' company and enjoy raiding together, and that's the most important thing, so we'll just keep plugging away at it  None of this is the game's fault really though, and thank gently caress for the onechesting being a thing in the first place, because it probably is THE reason we still even can keep plugging away in the first place.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:39
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I don't really see anything bad with what chyea is saying.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:41
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megalodong posted:I don't really see anything bad with what chyea is saying. I don't think it's wrong, just kind of tonedeaf considering who it's coming from and who it's aimed at.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:43
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megalodong posted:I don't really see anything bad with what chyea is saying. I think it's super disingenuous to suggest that the average raid environment is even a tenth as carefully cultivated as his, but he's not wrong in how many mid to high-tier players react poorly to adversity.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:45
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Chyea posted:I don't care about some hypothetical progression-minded, no "spoiling" raid team, those players aren't the ones making the bulk of the raiding community. Chyea posted:If you guys wanna paint me like the bad guy, go ahead.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:45
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Chyea posted:I'm surrounded by raid teams of different calibers, I can absolutely say that most, if not all, of the struggling and fatiguing raid teams I've encountered have this pattern of behavior. You're not the bad guy, your perspective is just kind of warped to the point that where empathizing with why and how other people play video games is concerned you are more deserving of my name than me. Like I'm not even sure if you should be allowed to use the word casual because I don't think you know what that means? There's a quantity of time and effort that constitutes an unreasonable amount of resources to devote to a videogame, and that quantity is different for everyone. When a game demands too much fun becomes capital W work and normal people shrug and peace out to do something else with their possibly very limited leisure hours. I hope this has been a very illuminating peek into the psychology of Normal People.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:48
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The Chairman posted:I don't think it's wrong, just kind of tonedeaf considering who it's coming from and who it's aimed at. But he hasn't posted it on the official forums, he posted it at goons who spend most of their time making fun of bad players and "i play how i like" types who don't learn from their mistakes or read guides on their classes or anything. And lo, we have someone (ironically i hope) saying they want to do it without using a guide, and someone else pulling the old "anyone who plays more than me has no life, anyone who plays less is a casual".
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Nov 7, 2015 22:53
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it's not as if the content requires a guide. guides make the content easier, not possible
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Nov 7, 2015 23:04
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megalodong posted:But he hasn't posted it on the official forums, he posted it at goons who spend most of their time making fun of bad players and "i play how i like" types who don't learn from their mistakes or read guides on their classes or anything. it's almost as if paying  doesn't actually make you a better
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Nov 7, 2015 23:16
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Ha look at this casual scrub who didn't play  for archives and no ads.
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Nov 7, 2015 23:24
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I'm pretty sure paying $10 for no adds would make some fights way easier.
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Nov 7, 2015 23:51
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The only solution is to splinter the guild.
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Nov 7, 2015 23:53
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Kaebora posted:I play on a controller, but I have a pair of macros that change hotbars around when I go into/out of Cleric Stance, and I added a 'target focus target' bit to going into CS, and a 'target the target of my focus target' bit for going out of CS. It's not the most elegant solution, but it works fine for me. Hey, these macros seem pretty nifty, mind sharing them?
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Nov 8, 2015 00:02
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Thanks to scheduling issues, unexpected player turnover, and The Struggle of repeatedly training new people for A2S, my core group has had maybe 4 hours total in A3S since savage came out. And that includes time between pulls talking strategy. Honestly I'm just happy that in that short time we've managed to come within about .5 seconds of beating Hand of Pain. v v
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Nov 8, 2015 00:24
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Everyone is complaining about end game raiding. I'm just interested in void ark and the exploratory missions, as well as minion battles. There's a lot of quality of life stuff that looks good too, like additional PVP experience. Edit: my only time in savage content has been subbing for statics, and I can just feel the frustration of people that can't get it right and can't keep regular members around 
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Nov 8, 2015 00:35
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I'm just interesting in the new dances and sitting poses. And all the QoL stuff they're introducing. And what shenanigans you can get into with /gpose and the idling camera. My enthusiasm for high-end raiding got killed when I was part of a group that faced all of these problems back in T8. Self/peer examination, lack of willing and able players that fit a schedule, sub pools being really sparse etc. EponymousMrYar fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Nov 8, 2015 |
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Nov 8, 2015 00:42
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See, the dungeons have been awesome I was hoping this game escaped the stressful raids.
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Nov 8, 2015 00:42
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I am pretty hopeful for FC explorations. I got a third airship up to rank 50 just this week, and we're big enough that we should be able to fill every seat. If they are actually decently hard they should keep us occupied for a good while.
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Nov 8, 2015 00:44
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A. Beaverhausen posted:See, the dungeons have been awesome I was hoping this game escaped the stressful raids. The problem now is that there's mild-stressful raids, like Ravana and Alex Normal, and then there's hyper-stressful raids in Alex Savage. There's no real medium stressful raids to do. There are a lot of groups who can't or won't devote the significant amount of time and effort you need to break into Savage, but who have finished Ravana and kinda have nothing to do now. So they try to push into Savage, and hit a big wall of frustration.
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Nov 8, 2015 01:05
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Grim Up North posted:Hey, these macros seem pretty nifty, mind sharing them? quote:/micon "Cleric Stance" and quote:/micon "Cleric Stance" Again, not the most elegant, and there's a chance of ending up on the wrong hotbar due to how macros work, but they work well enough for me. If for some reason you want these for pc hotbars, change /chotbar to /hotbar.
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