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PT6A posted:
His name was Robert Paulson.
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Nov 8, 2015 23:52
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PT6A posted:I agree. The difference is that I think the CPC is going to be in the weeds if they elect a less savvy leader than Harper, which they probably will. Jason Kenney is gonna be so bad 
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Nov 8, 2015 23:57
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No, it should be Doug Ford. e: Also, on the subject of refugees and health care, I saw a comment that wasn't entirely terrible. quote:It looks like we've finally figured out how to make conservatives give a crap about the less fortunate in society. On a regular day, conservative commentators and people on facebook would tell a poor person to just get a better job or to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. But as soon as you start talking about giving something to immigrants, well then, that's when they do a 180 and start talking about "taking care of our own" and helping the needy.
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Nov 9, 2015 00:42
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PT6A posted:While I do agree with the bulk of what you've said here, the NDP had a much tougher road than the CPC would to sell a fiscally conservative platform, because no one who wanted fiscal conservatism trusted them to deliver. A revitalized PC party would have a much easier time selling that platform. Would it be enough to win? You're right, it probably wouldn't be; still, the NDP's lack of success is a different matter. They weren't trusted, they were still strongly against pipeline building, etc. These are problems that probably would not afflict a version of the CPC that moved away from evangelical Christian nonsense and tough-on-crime bullshit. I don't really see what a party with a base of 30% is going to gain by alienating one of its most vocal and energized groups of supporters, especially since they already command the support of plenty of fiscal conservatives without needing to abandon the conservative social policy dog-whistles that keep their Christian supporters mollified. A Conservative party that tries to run as Blue Liberals doesn't strike me as any more likely to succeed than the NDP has been by running as Red Tories. To quote two conservative activists who have discussed the very issue you're raising: "Failure to give social conservatives a seat at the table will mean another eventual schism and, along with it, a failure to offer Canadians a true political alternative to Liberal statism" (Tasha Kheirdin and Adam Daifallah, "Rescuing Canada's Right", 2005, chapter 13). Of course those same authors then go on to advocate that Conservatives soft peddle any social conservative rhetoric or hide it behind dog whistle statements, but their main point stands: the conservatives risk another split if they don't make the SoCons feel included to some degree. Also note that the worldwide conservative parties that are succeeding the most are going in the opposite dirction to the one you advocate: they're doubling down on nationalism, racism and social conservatism. Most voters are not you: i.e. they're not young, rootless men with decent incomes and no children. Most people in parliamentary capitalist countries are losing out from the current incarnation of capitalism and to attract their votes conservatives need at least a patina of SoCon or racialist rhetoric and policy.
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Nov 9, 2015 00:55
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Helsing posted:I don't really see what a party with a base of 30% is going to gain by alienating one of its most vocal and energized groups of supporters, especially since they already command the support of plenty of fiscal conservatives without needing to abandon the conservative social policy dog-whistles that keep their Christian supporters mollified. A Conservative party that tries to run as Blue Liberals doesn't strike me as any more likely to succeed than the NDP has been by running as Red Tories. ...well, I can't say you're wrong, but good lord is that ever depressing.
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Nov 9, 2015 01:07
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Helsing posted:To quote two conservative activists who have discussed the very issue you're raising: "Failure to give social conservatives a seat at the table will mean another eventual schism and, along with it, a failure to offer Canadians a true political alternative to Liberal statism" (Tasha Kheirdin and Adam Daifallah, "Rescuing Canada's Right", 2005, chapter 13). I picked up this book from the library a few weeks ago after you first mentioned it. I wanted to say thanks for pointing it out, it was an interesting read.
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Nov 9, 2015 01:44
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Leofish posted:e: Also, on the subject of refugees and health care, I saw a comment that wasn't entirely terrible. Yeah, this is what I refer to as "the Homeless Veteran Strawman" Don't get me wrong, homeless veterans are totally A Thing, and that's lovely, but people only ever use them as an excuse for why we can't have "living wage" (particularly in America) or let in Syrian refugees. They never mention actually what they're doing to solve the homeless veteran problem. Answer: jack poo poo
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Nov 9, 2015 01:52
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Helsing posted:A Conservative party that tries to run as Blue Liberals doesn't strike me as any more likely to succeed than the NDP has been by running as Red Tories. Feel free to disagree, but my read on the PCs during the Joe Clark era-ish was pretty much them trying to do this. It's like "the liberals already exist and they actually win, so why would anyone vote for you?"
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Nov 9, 2015 01:55
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Well the counter to that is "well we're not corrupt" and of course the answer to that is "yet"
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Nov 9, 2015 01:56
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Helsing posted:Canada doesn't have a more comprehensive welfare state than America because Canadians or their government are inherently more benevolent. We just had a better labour movement that fought for comprehensive government programs rather than concessions from employers, and our labour movement used to have a political arm (the NDP) unlike the American unions who were simply one competing part of the Democratic Party. Also, Canadian labour wasn't persecuted during the anti-communist sweep of the 1950s like they were in America, for a variety of reasons (some unions made a point of executing public purges of any perceived radicals in order to prove their loyalty to the state), which gave them a bit more leeway in their political actions. Later they pretty effectively used Canadian nationalism to generate public outrage, which in turn encouraged the state to get involved in negotiations with American businesses and prevent job losses in Canada while American industry rusted out (as Steven High argues in Industrial Sunset). Dreylad fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Nov 9, 2015 |
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Nov 9, 2015 02:07
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PT6A posted:...well, I can't say you're wrong, but good lord is that ever depressing. Canadian Political Megathread: ...well, I can't say you're wrong, but good lord is that ever depressing.
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Nov 9, 2015 03:26
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Baronjutter posted:Yeah it boggles my mind how retail glasses stores still exist, but I guess it's for people like my dad who just need the experience of a slick salesman pretending to be his friend and telling him how amazing these $300 glasses look on him rather than buying a nearly identical (or actually identical) set online for like $50. I'm a page late to glasses chat but where/how the hell do I get glasses online? I've been buying them from Costco like a chump for the past 10+ years?
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Nov 9, 2015 04:34
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Xtanstic posted:I'm a page late to glasses chat but where/how the hell do I get glasses online? I've been buying them from Costco like a chump for the past 10+ years? The one I've heard of is Zenni Optical, but I can't say I've used them (I've had the same pair of glasses for 10 years because I never wear them).
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Nov 9, 2015 04:40
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I use Zenni for mine.
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Nov 9, 2015 04:50
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I don't have hosed up idiot nerd eyes so don't need glasses (can't see colour too good though...) but my wife loves clearlycontacts. Really good customer support. Don't like your glasses? Send them back for free. Something wrong with them? Send them back for free. It's all free and super fast as well. You can just keep sending poo poo back if you're unhappy for any reason so there's no risk and it's so much cheaper you can go nuts and buy 5 pairs of glasses so you have glasses to match every outfit and mood. You can end up spending way more on glasses because you just keep buying glasses because they seem so cheap.
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Nov 9, 2015 05:27
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Conservatives should hit up Brad Wall. He has conservative creds the base will like without sounding like a knuckle dragging troglodyte.
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Nov 9, 2015 05:32
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Xtanstic posted:I'm a page late to glasses chat but where/how the hell do I get glasses online? I've been buying them from Costco like a chump for the past 10+ years? Clearlycontacts gave me a free pair the first time I bought contacts from them but I don't know if that's still a thing.
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Nov 9, 2015 05:37
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Danny LaFever posted:Conservatives should hit up Brad Wall. He has conservative creds the base will like without sounding like a knuckle dragging troglodyte. For whatever reason it's very uncommon for Canadian politicians to migrate from provincial to federal politics. You see them move down from federal to provincial fairly regularly (usually, I would imagine, after realizing they'll never get a shot at the top job but they could still be a premier or provincial cabinet minister) but it's very rare for premiers or provincial party leaders, even successful and popular ones, to try and move up. We're very unlike the US in that regard, where it seems like half the country's governors only see their role as a temporary one until they can run for president.
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Nov 9, 2015 05:38
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Dreylad posted:Also, Canadian labour wasn't persecuted during the anti-communist sweep of the 1950s like they were in America, for a variety of reasons (some unions made a point of executing public purges of any perceived radicals in order to prove their loyalty to the state), which gave them a bit more leeway in their political actions. Later they pretty effectively used Canadian nationalism to generate public outrage, which in turn encouraged the state to get involved in negotiations with American businesses and prevent job losses in Canada while American industry rusted out (as Steven High argues in Industrial Sunset). Industrial Sunset is fantastic. I highly suggest The Wolf Finally Came for a great (if a bit biased feeling) look at the fall of unionization within the US Steel industry as capacity in Asia rapidly outstripped it.
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Nov 9, 2015 05:56
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vyelkin posted:For whatever reason it's very uncommon for Canadian politicians to migrate from provincial to federal politics. You see them move down from federal to provincial fairly regularly (usually, I would imagine, after realizing they'll never get a shot at the top job but they could still be a premier or provincial cabinet minister) but it's very rare for premiers or provincial party leaders, even successful and popular ones, to try and move up. My guess is it's related to bilingualism.
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Nov 9, 2015 05:59
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vyelkin posted:For whatever reason it's very uncommon for Canadian politicians to migrate from provincial to federal politics. You see them move down from federal to provincial fairly regularly (usually, I would imagine, after realizing they'll never get a shot at the top job but they could still be a premier or provincial cabinet minister) but it's very rare for premiers or provincial party leaders, even successful and popular ones, to try and move up. We're very unlike the US in that regard, where it seems like half the country's governors only see their role as a temporary one until they can run for president. I can think of a couple but it is rare. Main ones in my head are Kent Hehr and Yvonne Jones.
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Nov 9, 2015 06:34
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Wow I just realized that Olivia Chow resigned from her MP spot in her failed bid for mayor of Toronto and then didn't get re-elected in the federal election.
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Nov 9, 2015 06:39
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Eej posted:Wow I just realized that Olivia Chow resigned from her MP spot in her failed bid for mayor of Toronto and then didn't get re-elected in the federal election. She got completely crushed, too. Vaughan had over twice as many votes as her and won an outright majority (57%) of all votes cast.
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Nov 9, 2015 06:44
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bunnyofdoom posted:I can think of a couple but it is rare. Main ones in my head are Kent Hehr and Yvonne Jones. I was going to ask how you could leave this guy(on the right) off the list:  But after some cursory fact checking, it would seem he's been all over the map. Federal, then provincial, then back to federal.
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Nov 9, 2015 07:42
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I bought a pair of glasses from clearlycontacts once and they were cheap chinese garbage.
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Nov 9, 2015 13:22
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Zenni is pretty good, it's nice to have a bunch of pairs of $12 prescription sunglasses in the summer and you can tint them fun shades. Speaking of shady things... do you Ontarians like having a group of independent, non-partisan experts handling our electricity planning, transmission and procurement? Well gently caress you non-progressive thinkers. The OLP, having solved the rest of Ontario's problems and finding themselves with a little free time between bribing unions and flipping off autistic kids, have decided to handle the nitty gritty details of Ontario's electricity infrastructure themselves and will be relieving the OEB and IESO of any real decision making. http://www.canadianenergylawblog.com/2015/11/05/the-bill-135-governance-model-all-roads-lead-to-the-government/ posted:On October 28, 2015, the Government of Ontario tabled Bill 135, that will, if enacted, effectively remove independent electricity planning and procurement authority from the IESO and transmission approval from the OEB. Both of these types of authority will be transferred to the Minister of Energy. The Minister will produce long-term energy plans that will be binding on the Ontario Energy Board and the IESO, both of whom must issue implementation plans designed to achieve the objectives of the Government’s plan.
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Nov 9, 2015 15:49
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Ikantski posted:Zenni is pretty good, it's nice to have a bunch of pairs of $12 prescription sunglasses in the summer and you can tint them fun shades.
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Nov 9, 2015 15:57
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There's no one to vote for in Ontario. The ONDP do not do enough to make themselves electable and the PCs fashion themselves as tophat and twirly moustache villains.
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Nov 9, 2015 16:13
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Provincial politics is where the rubber meets the road on real pocketbook decisions and I'm disturbed at how few people give a poo poo about them.
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Nov 9, 2015 16:23
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Kraftwerk posted:There's no one to vote for in Ontario. The ONDP do not do enough to make themselves electable and the PCs fashion themselves as tophat and twirly moustache villains. Ontario governance is a huge joke. We have a choice of enduring cuts from either corrupt corporate lobbyists or tea party republicans.
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Nov 9, 2015 16:30
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Kafka Esq. posted:Provincial politics is where the rubber meets the road on real pocketbook decisions and I'm disturbed at how few people give a poo poo about them. I do and I've been very loudly giving a poo poo about them ever since the days of Special Ed. The problem being: the only person I liked in provincial politics in Alberta is now my MP, so I'm sort of hosed, aren't I?
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Nov 9, 2015 16:34
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Kafka Esq. posted:Provincial politics is where the rubber meets the road on real pocketbook decisions and I'm disturbed at how few people give a poo poo about them. Seriously, education, health care and transportation are probably the biggest things affecting people's day to day. My math might be wrong but don't provincial govts also spend more of our money? Federal revenue is about ~$6,500 per person while in Ontario it's about ~$8,000 per person?
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Nov 9, 2015 16:46
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Ikantski posted:Seriously, education, health care and transportation are probably the biggest things affecting people's day to day. My math might be wrong but don't provincial govts also spend more of our money? Federal revenue is about ~$6,500 per person while in Ontario it's about ~$8,000 per person? It's more interesting if you do it by spending. Just quick Wikipedia math using its 2011 numbers, Canadian provincial spending was 324 billion total while federal spending was 280 billion. I can't be arsed to dig through a bunch of government websites on my phone, so if anyone has newer number I'd love to hear them.
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Nov 9, 2015 16:55
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Is it at all possible that, 20 years from now, we will look back at the Ontario Green Energy Act and think that it was a good idea?
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Nov 9, 2015 17:01
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Yeah I feel like there's zero accountability at the provincial levels allowing all the parties to be equally terrible. Horvath should resign and the Liberals need some fresh candidates. I've held my nose and voted OLP for years while voting NDP federally. Now I think I'll do the opposite.
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Nov 9, 2015 17:04
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Being a city dweller, I find provincial politics to be extremely frustrating. Major cities are the economic (as well as cultural, political, financial etc) drivers of the provinces and indeed the whole country, plus having huge numbers of people. This importance does not seem to be reflected in current government structures. I'd rather see cities get an influence more commensurate with their size and influence and importance. I live in Montreal, which has the added joy of being a mixed cosmopolitan city dealing with provincial governments that take down english signs, try to ban religious symbols and generally make idiots of themselves. I'd like to see cities get a great deal more autonomy. This is only going to get more important and urbanization advances. Are there reasons not to do this, aside from obvious ones like already poor rural areas being increasingly neglected?
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Nov 9, 2015 17:09
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vyelkin posted:She got completely crushed, too. Vaughan had over twice as many votes as her and won an outright majority (57%) of all votes cast. What do you think were the main causes of this? a) Demographic change in the riding b) Riding redistribution changes c) Candidate d) Trudeau-mania e) other? In the past I was under the impression it was a clearly NDP leaning riding, but clearly that's changed.
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Nov 9, 2015 17:11
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Femtosecond posted:What do you think were the main causes of this? As a person just outside the riding she ran in and a toronto resident during her municipal campaign, I'd venture a guess that it was the same thing that sunk her municipally. A lackluster, uninspiring campaign, lack of engagement, and relying on a core of progressive voters that were more interested in making sure someone else didn't get voted in. Also Adam Vaughan was equally well known in the riding and also had a long history at City Hall as a progressive.
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Nov 9, 2015 17:52
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Chow has always been a candidate with good ground game but terrible speaking skills and not much in the way of inspiring vision. Also she ran in a newly formed riding that had a lot of downtown condos (presumably) full of Liberal voting yuppies, and her new riding lost The Annex, which is a giant reserve of pointy headed university types who might have voted for her. More than anything, though, she got swamped by the Liberal wave in Toronto after Mulcair imploded himself with his bad campaign. Remember that voter turnout went from about 63% to 68% this election, and most of those new voters went to Trudeau. It should still be pretty embarrassing just how badly Chow did but ultimately nobody in Toronto was able to hold on after Mulcair's inexplicably bad campaigning decisions. Also keep in mind most provincial NDPers in Toronto already got taken out by the provincial Liberals in the last election so this seems to be part of a broader trend.
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Nov 9, 2015 18:31
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Helsing posted:Also keep in mind most provincial NDPers in Toronto already got taken out by the provincial Liberals in the last election so this seems to be part of a broader trend. I'm in Parkdale-High Park, we managed to hold on to Cheri DiNovo as MPP but lost Peggy Nash (which is very disappointing). As far as a broader trend goes, these areas are gentrifying very rapidly, I'm not sure if it's more a demographic shift or a reflection of the godawful campaigns the ONDP/NDP have been running.
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Nov 9, 2015 18:46
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