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AndroidHub posted:Yeah, a player who knows anything about the game will at least just whip their conda around in FA-off and vaporize you in one salvo. And I don't have the exact numbers on hand, but a pvp conda is gonna have in the range of 5k-10kmj worth of shield cells packed, with anywhere from 1300 to 1800 base shields. And even in the off chance you did somehow get them to their last legs (or their shield down), they can just jump away, they don't even need to highwake, because they are in the biggest ship and you are in one of the smallest. Even a fully kitted python or clipper is gonna have a hard time out-attritioning a fully A-ranked pvp conda. I really don't think they even considered the player vs player aspect until it was brought up in alpha/beta once they'd built the underlying tech of the universe. Remember that it took them until the second major release after launch for wings to even be a thing.
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Nov 12, 2015 00:35
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A PVP fit conda is not killable by small ships, period. But I can attest that playing with a silent DBS is fun, and in a wing with bigger ships, you can be the annoying wasp the other side can't see. Two quick rounds of 2 Hammer and 2 rail can do up to approx 240MJ, so can be enough to get the shields down when they're at the very edge and just charging up the SCB.
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Nov 12, 2015 01:02
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Mercurius posted:Pretty sure that it's also because they literally are trying to remake the old Elite games in HD and have used the persistent universe MMO thing because it solved a problem for them (procedurally generated milky way with consistent contents shared among all players that doesn't require number crunching on the clients to maintain) and didn't even consider the multiplayer aspect of it because they were basically expecting people to play in solo since that's how the old games were. I expect that what they really intended was that the NPC fleets would be there and the player in their ship would fit into the 'role' that ship had (fast/agile fighter, heavy fighter, gunship, corvette) in the fight and that was it. It's not all bad news, they aren't totally adverse to changing things if something is clearly hosed up (check out the tears in the old Python nerf thread for evidence). If they got rid of stacking SCBs (or just SCBs altogether), it'd go a long way towards helping. If they allowed FSD interdictors to prevent a drive charging in normal space, that might help too (imagine, smaller ships could actually work as interceptors!).
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Nov 12, 2015 01:44
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tooterfish posted:Nah. They're definitely trying to balance it, as evidenced by their reasoning for the small weapon damage penalty (so they can make large weapons effective against large ships without one shotting the smaller ones). It's just they're a bit cack handed at it, and seem to be learning as they go.  PvP-wise, I really just wish they'd limit the number of SCB modules you could have in a ship to one like shields/fuel scoops and then fix shield recharges so they aren't so incredibly stupid. I'd also kind of prefer them to also change shield boosters to modules that make your shields recharge faster or something other than just 'more shield capacity' and provide some way for similar regeneration of the hull so that ships like the Core Dynamics Federal ones aren't completely screwed. Now that I think about it I'm pretty much describing exactly how EVE's armour/shield tanking works, aren't I? Mercurius fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Nov 12, 2015 |
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Nov 12, 2015 02:40
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While I was doing some what if thinking, I may have come up with a marginally interesting idea for powerplay. As it stands, switching factions is pretty easy so there's no sense of loyalty to your choices or real repercussion to bailing on your faction, so what if you made up an interesting game play mechanic around it? For example, if you want to bail on avril, you have to land on a planet in their home system, delete your pilot info from HQ, and bail the hell out of avril controlled space warriors style. This wouldn't apply to lower ranked players either. Could give the opportunity for some fun emergent gameplay, and another reason to hire the extraction specialists known as the Diamond Frogs. If you put it off, you keep getting chased down by npcs and maybe have a decent sized bounty on your head only collectable by that factions players. I dunno just spit balling but I like the idea of trying to escape under heavy oposition. Any major flaws other than it being piss easy to jump quickly and avoid combat?
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Nov 12, 2015 02:58
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So yeah Arexe rules for ranking up with the Federation. It's easy to get to, all of the combat missions take place in a nearby system called Orrere, and Orrere is an anarchy system so you can take any target you want without system security causing trouble. It also seems to be the home of the Code so it's full of pirate NPCs. Stack assassinations too, I interdicted one target and in the middle of the fight a second target showed up in an Anaconda. While I'm fighting him, a third ship arrives, a generic pirate target in an Anaconda, and opens fire on the first Anaconda so there's two of them going at it at short range side-to-side, point defense and multicannon/pulse turrets firing all over, and  it was cool. Moved from rank 5 to rank 6 after the first bundle. If the traffic report only counts player ships, then Arexe isn't even that popular, shouldn't have trouble rerolling the board.
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Nov 12, 2015 05:24
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:In the past everything has been reduced 90%. Is it still a thing to buy the biggest ship ever, sell all the modules at full price and then keep the hull in the station and repeat? I remember this being a thing when certain large scale ships needed to be paid for in a beta months ago. Groggy nard posted:Plasma just wants to be free! From a Broker Trade rank POV, done in a total of about 5 hours today: Run #1: 15 million Run #2: 20 million Robigo is real. That's just me running the cargo normally though. Apparently the "sell all the poo poo in Robigo and rebuy it in the bubble" method is real and works as well.
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Nov 12, 2015 05:34
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DarthBlingBling posted:A PVP fit conda is not killable by small ships, period. Well, if the anaconda pilot doesn't know how to reverse, maybe?
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Nov 12, 2015 07:01
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LCL-Dead posted:Is it still a thing to buy the biggest ship ever, sell all the modules at full price and then keep the hull in the station and repeat? I remember this being a thing when certain large scale ships needed to be paid for in a beta months ago. I don't know, I liquidate all my assets as one of the first things I do on the Beta sever since you'll get full cost (as in live prices) for your ships and fittings -- it's more than enough to let me mess around. Also people getting down on the Cutter, I'm just going to post this:  Thing is going to haul rear end 
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Nov 12, 2015 07:20
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I just reconfigured my controller scheme and now I'm neither elite nor dangerous in everything I do. This includes things like flying through the mail slot. I hope I have enough insurance money to get through this.
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Nov 12, 2015 07:45
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:The question of "more expensive == unequivocally better" is an interesting discussion (that's probably been run into the ground long, long before I heard about this game RNG and experience are the biggest faults of any PvP system. The problem is that you're letting the computer/system decide who wins vs who actually is Better At Killing.
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Nov 12, 2015 10:30
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Mercurius posted:They're trying to balance it now, what I'm saying was they didn't realise it was a thing they needed to care about when they were originally speccing out and building the game I always felt like balancing small vs. big ships should be based on giving the small combat ships greater manoeuvrability and speed advantages so that you actually do have a chance of keeping out of the main battery's arc when fighting an anaconda in a viper, for example. Never quite understood why the top speeds aren't a bit faster e.g. over 500m/s - do we know if the reason for this decision is a networking thing or a blackout mechanics thing? Or just a  'we don't want people to drive fast' thing?
El Grillo fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Nov 12, 2015 |
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Nov 12, 2015 15:57
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Ships just maintained momentum in early beta didn't they? Boost up to 420m/s in a Clipper, cut assist off, turret all day because nothing can catch you. I think that's partially why they limited ship speeds and tossed that aspect of reality into the trash can.
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Nov 12, 2015 16:05
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EVE still has the best explanation/rude gesture to reality for speed limits in space, with the magic FTL device dragging against spacetime bullshit, and there's no reason to not use it here too. Shut up about fighters without FSDs. Shut up shut up shut up. https://community.elitedangerous.com/node/335 quote:Another change we are testing in the 1.5 beta is to how shield cell banks operate. It comes in two parts, the first is increasing the heat cost when you use a shield cell bank. This increases the risk of using these as the sudden heat build up can cause module damage, using two or more in rapid succession can even cause hull damage – so making these a defence of last resort rather.. The second part is there is now a delay when these are powered up. These delays also apply to a range other modules. We’re looking forward to seeing the feedback on these and the other changes in the 1.5 build. Well this solution still seems to favor spacious multirole ships that can endure the delays but hey it's something.
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Nov 12, 2015 16:18
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^^^ sure - I meant, why don't they allow higher top speeds. Greater variety of gameplay +the balancing possibilities between small vs. large ships that I mentioned above. Just wondering if anyone had seen any comments from Frontier on this ever.
El Grillo fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Nov 12, 2015 |
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Nov 12, 2015 16:19
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LCL-Dead posted:Ships just maintained momentum in early beta didn't they? Didn't it have Actual Momentum so with FA off you just went faster and faster? I think someone mentioned that before and I got so dreamy about clipping dudes at 1000kph
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Nov 12, 2015 16:20
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There's always been a speed limit, they've said it's for networking and gameplay reasons. Maybe they could've solved the networking problems and made the flight model 100% Newtonian, but I don't think they thought it was worth it. A lot of people really didn't like the way ships handled in Frontier. Without the speed limit that clipper trick doesn't work. It's because ships all hit a limit that they can't catch it, without the limit that they can just keep accelerating with their main thrusters and overtake it (whereas the clipper's main thruster is facing the wrong way). To solve the issue they made it so you slow down when you reverse with FA off instead, mostly because so many people were abusing it and declaring themselves top gun.
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Nov 12, 2015 16:28
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Adult Sword Owner posted:Didn't it have Actual Momentum so with FA off you just went faster and faster? I think someone mentioned that before and I got so dreamy about clipping dudes at 1000kph 277m/s is 1000kph. I think you meant 1000m/s, which is 3600kph
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Nov 12, 2015 16:36
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I hope top speeds are unchanged when flying near planetary surfaces. I want to go supersonic when atmospheric flight is put in.
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Nov 12, 2015 17:10
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El Grillo posted:I always felt like balancing small vs. big ships should be based on giving the small combat ships greater manoeuvrability and speed advantages so that you actually do have a chance of keeping out of the main battery's arc when fighting an anaconda in a viper, for example. Yeah, this is what EvE does. Your ship is bigger? Then your ship will deal more damage, engage from further away and tanks more, but it is also 1) too slow to catch smaller ships and 2) your big turrets will track too slowly to hit smaller ships if they are manouvering. Having a variety of ship classes gives each class a distinct role on the battlefield, even without getting into the special variants like the T2 ships. The ironic thing is that the ship properties and even the whole outfitting system in ED are directly copied from EVE with some simplifications but they forgot to actually implement the above principle at all. As a result ship balance in the game makes no sense whatsoever. What I mean: EVE -> ED Structure hitpoints -> Module health Armor hitpoints -> Armor hitpoints Shield hitpoints -> Shield hitpoints Max velocity -> Max velocity Intertia modifier -> "Agility" Mass -> Mass Powergrid output (MW) -> Powerplant output (MW) Capacitor -> Power Distributor Small/Medium/Large/Huge Hardpoints -> Small/Medium/Large/Huge Hardpoints Low&Med Slots -> Internal compartments High Slots -> Utility mounts Cargo capacity -> Internal compartments (WTF!?) And so on, except that EVE also has lots of interesting gameplay mechanics around sensors, stealth, and different types of damage resistance that actually make sense. And the variety of modules is much larger. The worst thing for me though, is that in Elite, internal compartments can be also cargo compartments. This destroys the sense of having cargo ships, because the biggest combat ships then automatically become the best cargo ships. In EVE, cargo capacity is a totally separate thing that you can only expand through rigs (semi permanent modules) and combat ships are way inferior for actual hauling, which also makes intuitive sense! I really don't know, maybe will realise this some day, but the brown sea will go fruit-the-loop should they actually try to do anything about it.
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Nov 12, 2015 17:14
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Groggy nard posted:Plasma just wants to be free! What exactly are you supposed to do in there?
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Nov 12, 2015 17:19
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That Ships whizzing past each other at like 10km/s doesn't make for interesting gameplay. Either party is either going to get bored or too damaged to want to continue and just accelerate away unabated.
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Nov 12, 2015 17:21
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Bedshaped posted:That game Frontier: Elite 2 lets you reach unlimited speed and combat seems like such a mess for it. FTFY
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Nov 12, 2015 17:22
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Sekenr posted:What exactly are you supposed to do in there? That's just the new popular system for it. Sothis should still work, I guess.
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Nov 12, 2015 17:25
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LCL-Dead posted:277m/s is 1000kph. BLASTED METRIC SYSTEM
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Nov 12, 2015 17:27
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chrisoya posted:It's Sothis, but mostly hauling and nerfed. Lots of missions offering 700-800 KCr each, but 3-5 MCr jobs to haul a few units of biowaste are vanishingly rare. From the way it was explained to me: You fly to Robigo in a Cargo fit long haul asp (Fuel scoop, 70-80 cargo or more, or mass fuel setup, etc) and you play the Sothis bulletin board game of flipping through instances to get the best missions. Payout is highly dependent on trade rank. Higher rank = better money. So you stack missions on top of each other but as you're given the cargo you sell it back to the station (Except for the smuggling mission cargo). Then once you've gathered enough missions you haul rear end back to a central station in the bubble that sells everything (Except for the smuggling cargo) and jump into something like a T6 or other medium pad capable cargo ship and re-purchase all of the goods you sold back to Robigo. This way you're able to complete more missions with more cargo for a better payout. My trade rank is Broker, 51% Yesterday I did the runs normally, without selling the cargo back to Robigo and still netted 35 million in about 4.5-5 hours (Split between two sessions). The way to get mad payouts quickly is to try and stack missions onto the same stations/systems in order to really cut down your travel time. I was just taking them all so I eventually had to visit 10-12 different systems to drop them all off.
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Nov 12, 2015 17:36
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One other thing that annoys me is that in many cases, it is really hard to kill off a specific module on an enemy ship without the entire ship exploding first. I tried recently to take out the life support on a wedding barge orca, but even perfectly aimed pulse lasers dealt more damage to the hull itself than the module. It just bugs me that my weapons can make the entire ship explode, but up until that point the component systems on it will remain working just fine. I think a better way to deal with it would be removing the concept of armour as a health bar, and instead just go back to having the power plant reaching 0% result in an explosion, but make it able to take as much damage as the ship in general can right now. Then people could choose between going for the power plant kill, target non-fatal modules, or just shoot at the hull in general see what fails on the target first. Armor-related components could perhaps be redone to provide damage resistance (and perhaps even flat damage reduction in some cases, to keep armor-focused ships viable) to modules. Slashrat fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Nov 12, 2015 |
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Nov 12, 2015 17:44
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Have life-support's hitbox encompass the entire ship, maybe? Get shot up enough and even if nothing vital's got hit you'll eventually spring a leak.
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Nov 12, 2015 17:50
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I was thinking about something like that last night. Increase armour hitpoints by a ton, but reduce module hitpoints by a corresponding amount. Also have the powerplant and/or other modules completely shut down when they hit 0% (so you could be effectively dead in space). You'd still explode when you get to 0% armour, just it'd be much much easier to disable multiple ship systems before that happened. Could be fun, having to deal with cascading failures under fire. Imagine being left for dead by pirates, frantically trying to reboot the powerplant before your life support gives out. That's a loving story right there, much better than "I exploded". It's something they could at least let us try on a test build, wouldn't be that hard to set up.
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Nov 12, 2015 17:57
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Sensor sniping was something that happened back in the days of the RJR. Find a streamer, track him down, shoot out his sensors and let him go. At that point he realizes that he can't jump out of the system or dock because his sensors are gone. Not sure if anyone ever truly accomplished it though.
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Nov 12, 2015 18:06
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So let me see if I have this right: in the beta, you get a copy of the state of your main game, and then the beta and main game are treated as two separate save states from that point. then when the beta ends it just gets deleted. right?
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Nov 12, 2015 18:10
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SciFiDownBeat posted:So let me see if I have this right: Pretty much. Not sure how recent the "copy" of your current save is but that's the general gist.
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Nov 12, 2015 18:11
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Cutter looks good on the ground: http://youtu.be/TmrkDO9iFyw
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Nov 12, 2015 19:37
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:Cutter looks good on the ground: With the way the aft landing gear is arranged it's going to be incredibly easy to drag the tail of that monster around. I think it's time for some SRV hockey with Clippers and Cutters as the players.
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Nov 12, 2015 20:07
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:Cutter looks good on the ground: 
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Nov 12, 2015 20:32
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quote:Another change we are testing in the 1.5 beta is to how shield cell banks operate. It comes in two parts, the first is increasing the heat cost when you use a shield cell bank. This increases the risk of using these as the sudden heat build up can cause module damage, using two or more in rapid succession can even cause hull damage – so making these a defence of last resort rather.. The second part is there is now a delay when these are powered up. These delays also apply to a range other modules. We’re looking forward to seeing the feedback on these and the other changes in the 1.5 build.  I know I'm pretty ardent against PVP in this game, but this change will make PVE slightly harder for the sole reason of spiting people who PVP. Another band-aid solution for a much deeper problem.
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Nov 12, 2015 20:37
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Chrysophylax posted:
Or you know, it makes PVE slightly easier if you prefer armor-setups, since armor modules get a huge buff together with the SCB-nerf. Also this change is great for one sole reason alone: People exist who avoid informing themselves like the plague. Those guys will activate their multiple shield cell banks and blow themselves up with heat damage on day 1 after this goes live.
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Nov 12, 2015 20:42
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I meant solely about SCBs. Armor won't be viable in PVE until you can repair it in space or you get so many hitpoints that repair won't matter, IMO. But I I'll need to wait and see how the changes actually are before dooming and glooming
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Nov 12, 2015 20:46
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My opinion on SCBs aren't exactly a secret, so I'll respectfully disagree. But yeah, lets see how this poo poo plays out. Libluini posted:Those guys will activate their multiple shield cell banks and blow themselves up with heat damage on day 1 after this goes live. tooterfish fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Nov 12, 2015 |
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Nov 12, 2015 20:53
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Libluini posted:Or you know, it makes PVE slightly easier if you prefer armor-setups, since armor modules get a huge buff together with the SCB-nerf. Also this change is great for one sole reason alone: People exist who avoid informing themselves like the plague. Those guys will activate their multiple shield cell banks and blow themselves up with heat damage on day 1 after this goes live.
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