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Caros posted:I called dibs you son of a bitch. I will fight you IRL. It's been a while, remind me: Were you among the handful of goons who did that google hangout session with Eripsa last year or whenever about marbles and whatnot? If so, I'm beginning to worry you're addicted to arguing with the mentally ill.
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 18:42 |
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# ? May 16, 2024 18:49 |
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Alhazred posted:Please explain to me how a country with slavery is economically free. Think you might be waiting a while for an answer here, buddy.
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 18:46 |
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GunnerJ posted:Think you might be waiting a while for an answer here, buddy. "Economic liberty and personal liberty are two separate things that have nothing to do with each other, in this and only this specific case."
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 18:48 |
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Twerkteam Pizza posted:I AM SO EXCITED FOR THIS More or less excited than you are for Jeb!
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 18:53 |
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Captain_Maclaine posted:It's been a while, remind me: Were you among the handful of goons who did that google hangout session with Eripsa last year or whenever about marbles and whatnot? If so, I'm beginning to worry you're addicted to arguing with the mentally ill. Nah I missed that one. I know SedanChair was on that one and it was hilarious watching him kick the poo poo out of Eripsa. I did spend an unhealthy amount of time arguing with Eripsa the last time he came around but the amount of laughter I get from that sustained me through the jrod dryspell. Incidentally if you want to have a laugh, google Synereo. It was Eripsa's last crazy project and several months out from its first crowd funding drive it has produced... Nothing. Color me loving shocked.
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 18:55 |
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All I can think of with all the "fite me irl" posting is this
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 18:57 |
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theshim posted:All I can think of with all the "fite me irl" posting is this I would sell myself into slavery to watch Obama in an MMA match with any of his political opponents.
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 18:59 |
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Caros posted:Nah I missed that one. I know SedanChair was on that one and it was hilarious watching him kick the poo poo out of Eripsa. Ah, gotcha. I had mixed you up. Yeah, I follow Eripsa's threads as they appear much like this one (watching Synereo fail to even live up to the worst-case predictions everyone made is pretty hilarious), but I do get a little worried about you guys who really engage earnestly so often. I mean yeah, it's admirable that you make such an effort confronting such stupid (Eripsa) and hateful (Jrod) bullshit, but I gotta wonder just how healthy that much Abyss-staring is. Then again, I post in the freep thread. Who What Now posted:I would sell myself into slavery to watch Obama in an MMA match with any of his political opponents. Especially a doughy, po-faced loser like Cruz.
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 19:00 |
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Ah, gotcha. I had mixed you up. Yeah, I follow Eripsa's threads as they appear much like this one (watching Synereo fail to even live up to the worst-case predictions everyone made is pretty hilarious), but I do get a little worried about you guys who really engage earnestly so often. I mean yeah, it's admirable that you make such an effort confronting such stupid (Eripsa) and hateful (Jrod) bullshit, but I gotta wonder just how healthy that much Abyss-staring is. If it makes you feel better just keep in mind that I just really like arguing. I was on the Canadian world high school debate team for three years running solely because I really like winning arguments, even though I was actually diametrically opposed to many of the things I argued in favor of (the death penalty for example). For me it really is just a fun past time to debate things, though I have a particular loathing for libertarianism that makes me waste more time than I ought.
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 19:03 |
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Ah, gotcha. I had mixed you up. Yeah, I follow Eripsa's threads as they appear much like this one (watching Synereo fail to even live up to the worst-case predictions everyone made is pretty hilarious), but I do get a little worried about you guys who really engage earnestly so often. I mean yeah, it's admirable that you make such an effort confronting such stupid (Eripsa) and hateful (Jrod) bullshit, but I gotta wonder just how healthy that much Abyss-staring is. It's always good to be reminded that people like JRod exist. Frankly, I'm not even really angry at him. He's to be pitied more than raged at, because the very worst thing that could ever happen to him is that he gets to live in exactly the kind of society he argues for. His constant attempts at trying to pretend he didn't say what he clearly and provably did say get annoying, of course, but at the end of the day, I do my best to keep in mind that he's as much a victim as a perpetrator. Not that that's going to make me take down that image. e: vvv That too! TLM3101 fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Nov 19, 2015 |
# ? Nov 19, 2015 19:08 |
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I believe it's a condition called "being an rear end in a top hat" and all of DnD suffers from it.
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 19:09 |
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TLM3101 posted:It's always good to be reminded that people like JRod exist. Frankly, I'm not even really angry at him. He's to be pitied more than raged at, because the very worst thing that could ever happen to him is that he gets to live in exactly the kind of society he argues for. His constant attempts at trying to pretend he didn't say what he clearly an provably did say get annoying, of course, but at the end of the day, I do my best to keep in mind that he's as much a victim as a perpetrator. I don't really think his beliefs are particularly abhorrent, just immature philosophy to which no one with real power actually subscribes. Libertarianism is a fairytale to anyone who has any idea of recorded history beyond the broad strokes.
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 19:13 |
I live in a country that subsidized my education so I had a real chance to better myself, if I lived in a country where that wasn't the case I wouldn't have much education at all. I remember breakin my arm as a kid and to relieve my pain my father, being a nurse, wrapped it in a newspaper to stabilize it. If I lived in another country that probably wouldn't have happened since then my father wouldn't have afforded the education to be a nurse or even afford to leave work to drive me to the doctor. I come from a poor background and are now economically independent, but I can't enslave other people so I guess I'm not economically free at all.
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 19:15 |
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Jrod, I want you to answer a simple question: what is the greater evil, property tax or slavery? Which one hurts a nation's economic freedom more? If the slavery is worse, is there any kind of tax then that is worse than slavery?
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 19:25 |
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And at this point Jrod will disappear into the ether until the day he randomly decides to come reward us with is presence by telling us how smart and handsome he is once again. I'd talk to Jrod and ask him questions and debate him but he has literally never responded to a single one of my posts. Ever.
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 20:36 |
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I got a response
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 20:39 |
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I'd talk to Jrod and ask him questions and debate him but he has literally never responded to a single one of my posts. Ever. Much, though not all of his unwillingness to respond come from him not posting here to actually debate. Like most libertarian posters, he's here to proselytize and proclaim the Good Word to us unwashed heathens. The rest of his unwillingness derives from his deep-rooted cowardice, inadequacy, lack of bladder control, and manifold other personal failings.
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 20:43 |
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Much, though not all of his unwillingness to respond come from him not posting here to actually debate. Like most libertarian posters, he's here to proselytize and proclaim the Good Word to us unwashed heathens. What do you expect from a watermelon fucker
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 20:50 |
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Literally The Worst posted:What do you expect from a watermelon fucker He actually finally denied being a watermelon fucker during his last bout of posting!
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 20:51 |
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Captain_Maclaine posted:He actually finally denied being a watermelon fucker during his last bout of posting! I'm just going to assume that he's lying until he provides actual, genuine proof that he is not, in fact, a watermelon fucker.
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 20:52 |
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ToxicSlurpee posted:And at this point Jrod will disappear into the ether until the day he randomly decides to come reward us with is presence by telling us how smart and handsome he is once again. I've given in-depth responses and I've also made snide jokes about him redefining words. The rule I've learned is that he only responds if you give him those "inflammatory substance-free replies." People respond to incentives, whoda thunk. Captain_Maclaine posted:He actually finally denied being a watermelon fucker during his last bout of posting! Everything else he's ever posted has been wrong. Why would this time be any different?
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 21:43 |
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Nolanar posted:Everything else he's ever posted has been wrong. Why would this time be any different? I just found it remarkable that he finally went on record with an answer one way or the other, to be honest.
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 21:44 |
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VitalSigns posted:Despite the lip service to liberty and freedom, it seems like the most prominent Libertarians are perfectly happy to let bigots punch down at minorities or countenance horrific abuses by industry (like forced labor!) in exchange for a few percent lower taxes on the super-rich. TLM3101 posted:That said, don't you loving dare aggress against me by trying to limit my freedom to post, you goddamn crypto-fascistic marionette. PUT DOWN THE GUN!
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 21:55 |
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Halloween Jack posted:You call off your dogs, I'll call off my dogs! *does not actually call off own dogs, and indeed actively unleashes them at the sign of slightest vulnerability.
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 22:05 |
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Captain_Maclaine posted:*does not actually call off own dogs, and indeed actively unleashes them at the sign of slightest vulnerability. *swoops in to kill the victor in his moment of victory and vulnerability* Anubis-Jackle DRO supremacy!
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 22:11 |
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One of the best bits of Jrode's awful property rights/reparations crap is how it sounds progressive and forward thinking - if a descendant can prove that their ancestors worked the land, they should be given it back. Of course, in a libertarian society with no police or state, who the hell has a private army that could remove said property owner and who the hell is going to pay them? And - the beauty of Jrode's answer is that slave owners specifically went out of their way to limit paperwork on their slaves. At best, although I could be wrong, you might have some census info or a deed of sale. There are still black US citizens who don't have a birth certificate because their parents couldn't go to a white's only hospital, they couldn't afford it, they couldn't read or write, or their parents never got one. And I doubt a libertarian would take a birth certificate as proof that one mingled their labor with the land. How do we know they didn't just work in the kitchen, hmm? Or sat around, hmm? It's the perfect non-answer. Yeah, we want to right an ancient wrong, but unless your paperwork is in order, we can't do anything. Jrode - serious question - do you oppose or support the efforts of states to require ids to vote and limit voting times and locations?
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 23:33 |
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And even assuming your ancestors had OCD slave owners and everyone had their claims appropriately resolved, that only causes more problems. How many different slaves worked that land over the 200+ years of our Peculiar Institution? And how many descendents do they have today? Any given black person would be lucky to get a square foot of land in a hundred different former plantations. And that's not even getting into figuring out who gets which square foot. And then, oh poo poo, the Native Americans whose land was stolen in the first place show up with a solid argument that the whole of that land should be returned to them! If the land was stolen from one group and used to exploit another, how do you divvy it out? It goes back to the point raised earlier: the crimes committed in the name of property are so vast as to be completely impossible to address by handing out land.
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 23:49 |
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Jrod has gone on record that there's no way the native Americans were using that much land. I mean, let she serious here, most of them didn't even have fences! And it doesn't count if you don't have a fence.
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# ? Nov 19, 2015 23:52 |
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Who What Now posted:Jrod has gone on record that there's no way the native Americans were using that much land. I mean, let she serious here, most of them didn't even have fences! And it doesn't count if you don't have a fence. If anything that's one of the most bankrupt elements* of his whole fetishization of homesteading: how he pretends the frontier was somehow virgin, untouched territory for hearty *there are many others.
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# ? Nov 20, 2015 00:02 |
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AND ANOTHER THINGjrodefeld posted:To state the obvious, it is not only libertarians who value private property rights. All political ideologies have a strong conviction on private property. Marxists have a deeply felt conviction that the product of the worker's labor is their property and therefore the Capitalist is a thief by pocketing a profit from the product manufactured by the worker. That is why they feel it is justified for the workers to rise up and take control of the factories, taking them away from the Capitalist. It is not a random whim that is used to justify re-appropriation of property from the perceived thief to the "rightful" owner, but a consistent if mistaken concept of just property rights. This got mostly lost in the shuffle because it got posted during your """defense""" of the Cato study, but I'd like to take a moment to marvel over how loving ludicrous this is. EvanSchenck already pointed out how wrong you are about Marxism, so what other philosophies are putting all this value on private property rights?
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# ? Nov 20, 2015 00:10 |
Who What Now posted:Jrod has gone on record that there's no way the native Americans were using that much land. I mean, let she serious here, most of them didn't even have fences! And it doesn't count if you don't have a fence.
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# ? Nov 20, 2015 00:43 |
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Captain_Maclaine posted:If anything that's one of the most bankrupt elements* of his whole fetishization of homesteading: how he pretends the frontier was somehow virgin, untouched territory for hearty Actually, this philosophy supports seizing property from current owners and giving it to people who will use it better. I'm changing my mind, libertarian ethics sound pretty alright to me.
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# ? Nov 20, 2015 01:11 |
Infinite Karma posted:Actually, this philosophy supports seizing property from current owners and giving it to people who will use it better. I'm changing my mind, libertarian ethics sound pretty alright to me.
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# ? Nov 20, 2015 01:15 |
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Nessus posted:More like "people who are whiter" Wasn't there some movement which actually argued that all land should be nationally held, and instead of an income tax, everyone would pay basically some rental tax because they didn't make that planet they were using, but they DID make/buy/whatever their various improvements? Georgism?
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# ? Nov 20, 2015 01:45 |
There are still land taxes instituted off the back of that philosophy.
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# ? Nov 20, 2015 01:49 |
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Infinite Karma posted:It's all pretty stupid to talk about in the modern day anyways. There isn't "virgin territory" anywhere on the planet anymore, even if there once was. A political philosophy based on gaining ownership of property by improving it is prima facie worthless - all the real property is already owned.
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# ? Nov 20, 2015 01:50 |
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And don't forget often real-life libertarian dream of seasteading, where you make a DRO on an oil-rig and freedom happens.
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# ? Nov 20, 2015 02:06 |
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VitalSigns posted:Drop the personal liberty vs economic liberty angle, we're only talking about economic liberty (unless you'd like to argue that slavery isn't a question of economic liberty?) What you are doing is spreading a gross caricature of libertarianism that says more about your own prejudices than it does about actual libertarian thought. Libertarians care more about low taxes than slavery? Really? I guess we can forget about all the classical liberal abolitionist writings and the statements that repeatedly say that slavery is the most egregious violation of human liberty. This sounds like something progressives make up about libertarians while snuggled in their own tight-knit bubble of self-reinforcing ideologies. The sort of thing people who have never even spoken to a libertarian, let alone having read a single influential libertarian treatise, would make up. You HAVE been speaking to a libertarian and I can assume you've read a few things about libertarianism so you don't have the excuse of ignorance to fall back on. It is grossly irresponsible to make a statement like "despite the lip service Libertarianism gives to personal liberty and economic freedom, when you look at what they actually value, low taxes are much more important than slavery." What are you basing this on? You already acknowledge that all libertarians say they strongly oppose slavery since it is a violation of the non-aggression principle and self ownership. Every decent person opposes slavery, it hardly need be said. The reason why some libertarians focus on economics is that most people are not very economically literate and much more work needs to be done to educate the masses about the value of economic liberty. Now, regarding the Cato study. I've already written down the criteria they used in the rankings of economic liberty. If you want to learn more, here is the full PDF file of the report that goes into much greater detail: http://www.freetheworld.com/2015/economic-freedom-of-the-world-2015.pdf If there was a methodological error in the way the list was compiled, then you are more than willing to point it out. You ought to direct your critique to the authors at Cato. But at least you should be clear about the method used and scope of the study in question. None of these countries adhere to libertarianism all that closely. In ranking a list of non-libertarian countries, we can only cite countries that have specific policies that are libertarian and look at the effect of those policies in particular. Switzerland, for example, has a very libertarian foreign policy of neutrality, non-intervention and the lack of a standing army and military industrial complex. The Netherlands have fairly libertarian and tolerant drug and prostitution policies. And various nations like New Zealand, Hong Kong and Singapore have economic policies that are much closer to laissez-faire than most other nations. Conclusions can be drawn from singling out particular policies that are closer to libertarianism and looking at their effects. The fact that other policies in all these nations deviate from libertarianism doesn't impugn the character of the libertarian analyst who is trying to make sense of an un-free world. Just as the Marxist who ranked the worlds countries in accordance with their adherence to Marxists principles could hardly be brought to task for the various betrayals of Marxism that different nations had given that no currently existing nations align very well with those values. For the record, the Cato Institute is far from my favorite libertarian think tank. Citing this study doesn't amount to a ringing endorsement of Cato or all of the writers there. But I think this list is pretty accurate judged on the whole. Look at the top 20 countries listed and compare them to the bottom 20 and you'd be hard pressed to argue that the top 20 are not much more economically free and prosperous than the bottom 20. Other libertarian organizations have released similar lists that rank different nations according to different libertarian criteria. I'm trying to get off of this subject and speak about the libertarian principles I articulate. Fair enough? This is absolutely NOT worth the time you are investing in it.
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# ? Nov 20, 2015 02:08 |
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jrodefeld posted:What you are doing is spreading a gross caricature of libertarianism that says more about your own prejudices than it does about actual libertarian thought. you don't get to do this, mr gross mischaracterization of literally everyone as a fascist in waiting
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# ? Nov 20, 2015 02:10 |
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# ? May 16, 2024 18:49 |
jrodefeld posted:What you are doing is spreading a gross caricature of libertarianism that says more about your own prejudices than it does about actual libertarian thought. Libertarians care more about low taxes than slavery? Really? I guess we can forget about all the classical liberal abolitionist writings and the statements that repeatedly say that slavery is the most egregious violation of human liberty. This sounds like something progressives make up about libertarians while snuggled in their own tight-knit bubble of self-reinforcing ideologies. The sort of thing people who have never even spoken to a libertarian, let alone having read a single influential libertarian treatise, would make up. You HAVE been speaking to a libertarian and I can assume you've read a few things about libertarianism so you don't have the excuse of ignorance to fall back on. At various times you have deployed Walter Block in your defence, a man who supports the right of individuals to sell themselves and their children in to slavery. Forgive us if we fail to take your outrage about slavery seriously.
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# ? Nov 20, 2015 02:11 |