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At first, it was shocking to me that 56 people died because it looks like the police were evacuating people pretty efficiently. But then I saw how rapidly the fire spread  ... if you weren't lucky enough to be near the front so you could escape onto the field, or if you tried to exit from the inside, you'd be hosed.
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Nov 23, 2015 10:42
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FourLeaf posted:At first, it was shocking to me that 56 people died because it looks like the police were evacuating people pretty efficiently. It looks like a bunch of people didn't assess the danger correctly because the fire spread in large part UNDER the stands, so people on the far side did see how big and dangerous the fire was for some time.
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Nov 23, 2015 21:03
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One of the more unnerving things I've ever purposefully done to myself was getting a "crowd manager" certification - basically how to check for proper exits for the crowds you're handling, how to properly set up temporary barriers to prevent them from being the cause of everyone dying in case of a fire, so on and so forth. Part of the certification involved listening to a long section of audio from the Station nightclub fire. It was unpleasant, to say the least, and I've responded in person to situations ranging from attempted murder to some very hosed up domestic situations. The audio is out there, for anyone morbid enough to go looking. I don't recommend it. I've never really had a strong stomach for listening to things where people are completely helpless, and so I'm not going to give you guys the link to inflict it on yourselves. Also, please, when you go out anywhere new, ESPECIALLY crowded areas like concert venues, please know your exits. The nearest exit is probably not the way you went in. And if there's a fire, and some fuckboy bouncer is trying to stop you from going out an exit because "it's for the band"? Knock that fucker down and get out that door. The assault charges, if they come, are less perilous than literally dying in a fire. (Seriously - the fact that bouncers blocked an exit means that they straight up murdered people. People died as a direct result of that decision. I use it as a teaching tool when I'm training new private security officers - that you have to know when to bend the rules, and letting people out of a burning building is one of those times.)
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Nov 24, 2015 02:55
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Rondette posted:There was an article a few years ago, I think it would have been 2009, the twentieth anniversary, which had survivor accounts. They were absolutely harrowing, and I remember reading it on the train and nearly crying. I can't imagine anything worse than what those people went through. loving hell. I was in tears reading that, what a horrific thing to have to witness. I knew about the Hillsborough disaster in passing, but I was young when it happened so I never knew much past it being a tragedy at a football game.
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Nov 24, 2015 04:01
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For about 2 years I had the Hillsborough 30 for 30 on my DVR. I watched part of it but could never bring myself to finish it.
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Nov 24, 2015 06:06
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Rondette posted:There was an article a few years ago, I think it would have been 2009, the twentieth anniversary, which had survivor accounts. They were absolutely harrowing, and I remember reading it on the train and nearly crying. I can't imagine anything worse than what those people went through. quote:Inbetween the men I saw a young woman with blonde hair, her face was becoming distorted with the pressure from bodies, because of the pressure on her head, it lOoked as though her eyes were being forced out, the pain in her eyes captivated and stunned me. I looked down her body on the bars, it was in a horrible, tangled, twisted shape. Occasionally the crowd of bodies would move and her body would change shape, whenever her body changed shape she would give the most horrifying scream or cry. I felt frozen, quote:One supporter was trying to lift a man’s body through the gate in my pen but was struggling as the gate was quite high off the floor. The man’s sweat shirt had been pulled over his head. I and a few other supporters ran down the the gate to help him. As I lifted the body it felt freezing cold, I could feel the man’s rib’s were in pieces, his body was covered in blue patches, wherever someone had their hands his body would give in, nowhere looked firm. Two supporters on the touchline pulled the body through the gate, the' man’s sweat-shirt fell off his head, his eyes were still open, his face was a greyish white colour and his lips were dark purple, his mouth was open. Chichevache has a new favorite as of 11:21 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 11:17
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Zero One posted:For about 2 years I had the Hillsborough 30 for 30 on my DVR. I watched part of it but could never bring myself to finish it. I just finished it a few moments ago, I started watching it yesterday afternoon but I kept having to turn it off and listen to some music or something because yeah, it's harrowing as gently caress. I thought it would get 'easier' once it got past the breakdown of the day, but the aftermath and obfuscation of truth by the media and police was just as shocking. I was 9 when Hillsborough happened so I was aware of it and of course the aftermath, but that documentary showed just why the people of Liverpool hate the Sun newspaper and the police so much. Christ. It's a total pro-watch, but I can't say I'd recommend it in one whole go. My soul couldn't take it. Edit- I see David Duckenfield copped for it in the end http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31928476 quote:The Hillsborough police match commander has agreed his failure to close a tunnel "was the direct cause of the deaths of 96 people". It's funny (well not funny but you know what I mean) to think, had two officers not pranked a junior officer, none of this would probably have ever happened. http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jul/07/most-experienced-police-commander-prank-transfer-hillsborough-disaster quote:The South Yorkshire police chief superintendent who had experience of commanding football matches at Hillsborough was transferred 19 days before the 1989 FA Cup semi-final, shortly after officers in his division played a brutal "prank" on a probationary constable involving a gun. EDIT- By the way, thanks to whoever mentioned those 30 for 30 docs, despite not really having that much of an interest in sports, there are some really interesting looking documentaries in there. I'm just starting the OJ one. Rondette has a new favorite as of 12:42 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 11:48
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There are a few goons who lost family and/or friends at Hillsborough. There will be no forgiveness for those guilty, for the papers that slandered the victims, and for Thatcher's government using it in their ongoing culture-war against the North.
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Nov 24, 2015 12:21
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lenoon posted:There are a few goons who lost family and/or friends at Hillsborough. There will be no forgiveness for those guilty, for the papers that slandered the victims, and for Thatcher's government using it in their ongoing culture-war against the North. The paper, sure - but the problem is more systemic than particularly pointed towards any given person. Most people simply do not understand how dangerous a crowd crush is - I certainly didn't before reading articles about them linked in this and other threads. The media is complicit to some degree for their constant reporting of "trampling" when a crowd crush occurs - implying that people are killed because of a mad, frenzied rush - when a crowd crush is caused by a large number of people providing steady forward pressure. While, yes, the people in charge made numerous bad decisions on the day in question, the one thing that is overwhelmingly clear from the day-of account posted earlier is that none of the police officers understood how dangerous the situation was. It becomes very clear reading over it that none of them even understood that a crowd crush can lead to fatalities, because it is counterintuitive that it does so. The failures in this type of situation are an interconnected web that involves everyone involved in running the event - from the people who planned the stadium, to the people who planned the entrance paths on that day, to the police themselves. The great failing is that there's just no way that the policeman in charge had ever had exactly what a crowd crush is thoroughly explained, let alone had thorough training in the prevention and management of them.
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Nov 24, 2015 16:51
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Yea its a very tough thing to get your head around, the idea of being in such a packed group of people that you literally can't expand your lungs to breathe. All I can do is imagine my own experiences at certain concerts where I was uncomfortable and maybe a little overheated because of the crowd, but its just not even the same ballpark, its apples and oranges.
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Nov 24, 2015 17:08
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So uh...ahem...how about those ghost flights, eh Kermit? Heh heh...
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Nov 24, 2015 18:46
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Basebf555 posted:Yea its a very tough thing to get your head around, the idea of being in such a packed group of people that you literally can't expand your lungs to breathe. All I can do is imagine my own experiences at certain concerts where I was uncomfortable and maybe a little overheated because of the crowd, but its just not even the same ballpark, its apples and oranges. and it's all just from people just kinda bunching up in the same direction
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Nov 24, 2015 18:50
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I'm fairly small and have been at a few shows where, upon reaching the front near the stage, have been squeezed against the barriers or fences so much that I found it hard to breathe, and one time I was bent nearly into a 90 degree angle over one, my legs completely pinned. I had big bar-like bruises afterwards. It was terrifying because at that point there's nothing you can do except hope people shuffle back or someone in security starts to act. Now I find balconies or open areas to watch from. Oh yeah, on the last day of school I gave my seniors some pieces of advice for life, and one was "always know your exits". Metaphorically and literally.
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Nov 24, 2015 19:11
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I once got crushed at the front of a gig. It was loving terrifying as you each breathe gets a bit smaller as the crush increases. Then you get a tunnel vision blackout that looks exactly like the end of a Looney Tunes cartoon. Fortunately a bouncer dragged me over the front and i woke up in the nurses room with blue lips.
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Nov 24, 2015 19:17
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theflyingorc posted:The media is complicit to some degree for their constant reporting of "trampling" when a crowd crush occurs - implying that people are killed because of a mad, frenzied rush - when a crowd crush is caused by a large number of people providing steady forward pressure. I find the term "Stampede", which is so often used in headlines about crowd crush disasters, offensive for this reason.
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Nov 24, 2015 19:31
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slinkimalinki posted:I find the term "Stampede", which is so often used in headlines about crowd crush disasters, offensive for this reason. Yup! You might in the back of your head know "a person was trampled to death at a Walmart on Black Friday." - especially because the media was basically looking for that narrative when it happened.* Here's an article on it and other crushes: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/07/crush-point (a bit  for some, it starts with a picture from Hillsborough)And here's an article calling it a stampede! http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/worker-dies-long-island-wal-mart-trampled-black-friday-stampede-article-1.334059 The comments on that second one, as with every article I've ever seen about it, are filled with THOSE SHOPPER SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF THEMSELVES!!!! posts. But that's not what happened. The line was setup wrong, and the employees even did a countdown to the doors opening. People were ready to move forward in line - like we've all been hundreds of times - and they all crowded forwarded at the same time. Collectively, the caused the doors to burst off their hinges. The only mad rush was the people in the front trying not to get killed by the people in the back. * Incidents of retail violence don't see a significant increase on Black Friday, but the news makes sure you hear about every one! Gotta make sure the news fits the narrative!
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Nov 24, 2015 19:42
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While it's not the same as a stampede, do crushes depend on there being a few assholes in the back who start pushing? If I knew that doors were open ahead, I still wouldn't step forward to smoosh my chest to the shoulder blades of the person in front of me. There would have to be someone pushing me from behind for that to happen.
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Nov 24, 2015 19:56
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Mr. Flunchy posted:I once got crushed at the front of a gig. It was loving terrifying as you each breathe gets a bit smaller as the crush increases. Then you get a tunnel vision blackout that looks exactly like the end of a Looney Tunes cartoon. It's terrifying how quickly people turn into cattle when you have a large crowd. If you don't give clear direction, people just aimlessly crowd forward and block everything causing tremendous problems. I once waited in a traffic jam to leave a festival for 4 hours because no-one could be bothered to direct traffic and it jammed up everything all the way to the interstate. On a smaller scale, I was directing traffic for a memorial service some years ago with a hundred or so people attending. I walked away for 5 minutes to help an older gentleman to get out of their car. By the time I got to my spot, the entrance had been blocked with several parked cars and people were just packing themselves in wherever they fit. Crowd mentality is madness.
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Nov 24, 2015 19:59
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Phyzzle posted:While it's not the same as a stampede, do crushes depend on there being a few assholes in the back who start pushing? If I knew that doors were open ahead, I still wouldn't step forward to smoosh my chest to the shoulder blades of the person in front of me. There would have to be someone pushing me from behind for that to happen. It's usually not "pushing", it's the casual "scooting up" that you do to get closer. Somebody moves slightly forward behind you, so you usually scoot up just a little bit. Nobody's being that active in it. edit: pretty sure the tipping point is when people NEAR the back, but not at the very back, lean forward a bit too much and half fall, which creates a domino effect. People just need to be packed in pretty tight and all headed towards a point that they can't all get through at a solid rate. theflyingorc has a new favorite as of 20:11 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 20:08
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theflyingorc posted:While, yes, the people in charge made numerous bad decisions on the day in question, the one thing that is overwhelmingly clear from the day-of account posted earlier is that none of the police officers understood how dangerous the situation was. It becomes very clear reading over it that none of them even understood that a crowd crush can lead to fatalities, because it is counterintuitive that it does so. I'm sure the layperson of the times wouldn't know about crowd crush, but the institutions (police, stadium management, etc) knew about it and didn't stop it. If the individuals involved didn't know, then it's a failing of the people higher up in placing the individuals at that point in time.
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Nov 24, 2015 20:50
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Tehdas posted:I'm sure the layperson of the times wouldn't know about crowd crush, but the institutions (police, stadium management, etc) knew about it and didn't stop it. If the individuals involved didn't know, then it's a failing of the people higher up in placing the individuals at that point in time. In 1989? No, not really. The New Yorker article I linked talks at length about how we've really only collectively understood crushes very recently. The previous default response to one was "blame the crowd for being hooligans". Nobody AT ALL took crushes seriously until after a concert by The Who in 1979.
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Nov 24, 2015 20:57
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Tehdas posted:I'm sure the layperson of the times wouldn't know about crowd crush, but the institutions (police, stadium management, etc) knew about it and didn't stop it. If the individuals involved didn't know, then it's a failing of the people higher up in placing the individuals at that point in time. The previous, very experience, superintendent who had overseen the last two semi-finals at Hillsborough had just been transferred out of the area and the new guy had never been in charge of a match. Coppers on the ground are about as knowledgeable about overcrowding as the average punter, even the without overall command issues. To add to that the stadium had no safety certificate due to previous crushes where people were injured. It was a perfect shitstorm really.
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Nov 24, 2015 22:01
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theflyingorc posted:Nobody AT ALL took crushes seriously until after a concert by The Who in 1979. Yup, this. I believe that event was the catalyst for studying that phenomenon and how to prevent and react to such events. If I'm not mistaken, that incident is still being used as a teaching model. It may seem minor by today's standards, but at the time it was a pretty big deal. And not to sound like that "My uncle works at Nintendo" guy, but I really do have an uncle who was there. He's the kind of guy who's late for everything, so he actually didn't get there until the aftermath, and he somehow took it as a sign that being a lazy stoner saved his life, so... yea, he's still a lazy stoner. 
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Nov 24, 2015 22:10
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theflyingorc posted:
Jesus yeah, pretty sure at least two of the people in that picture are dead.
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Nov 24, 2015 22:53
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Whether they knew what was happening or not, the systematic coverup that occurred afterwards shows that the powers that be knew exactly where blame rested - with the police - who have now (slightly), and after years of fabrication, dissembling and lies, admitted that their actions and inaction up to and including during the crush itself, cost lives. They could have acted to alleviate the pressure, they could have evacuated the wounded before they died on the pitch, they could have rushed to help and done something - but instead they stood and watched, and then participated in the largest systematic and organised coverup in British policing history. For all that a crush is an unpredictable and difficult to deal with event (even though prompt police action could have saved lives) there is still guilt, there is still culpability and there are still 96 manslaughter charges yet to be laid against the police - and charges that still could be made of perverting the course of justice against virtually every police officer in South Yorkshire at the time.
lenoon has a new favorite as of 01:12 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 00:42
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lenoon posted:Whether they knew what was happening or not, the systematic coverup that occurred afterwards shows that the powers that be knew exactly where blame rested - with the police - who have now (slightly), and after years of fabrication, dissembling and lies, admitted that their actions and inaction up to and including during the crush itself, cost lives. They could have acted to alleviate the pressure, they could have evacuated the wounded before they died on the pitch, they could have rushed to help and done something - but instead they stood and watched, and then participated in the largest systematic and organised coverup in British policing history. For all that a crush is an unpredictable and difficult to deal with event (even though prompt police action could have saved lives) there is still guilt, there is still culpability and there are still 96 manslaughter charges yet to be laid against the police - and charges that still could be made of perverting the course of justice against virtually every police officer in South Yorkshire at the time. So who in your family died there?
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Nov 25, 2015 01:30
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Uncle. Doesn't make any of it less true for all that.
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Nov 25, 2015 01:41
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A crowd crush helped the heavily outnumbered English army beat the French at the Battle of Agincourt. The French were so confident of victory that most of their knights and nobility lined up near the front of the battle lines, hoping to have the best chance of capturing English nobility for ransom. However, the English army had set up a defense in a good spot in a valley that narrowed as you approached their position, with longbowmen holding the hills on the flanks. Also helping the English was the weather, which had turned parts of the valley into mudpits. As the French assaulted the English position, those at the front were slowed up by the marshy terrain, while those at the back were still charging forward to get their chance. This alone wouldn't have hurt the French, but the shape of the valley and the waves of arrows from the longbowmen combined to funnel the French flanks inwards. This started a crush, which began to push over the knights wading through the mud at the front. Before fighting even started with the English, many of the best and most heavily armored French soldiers were dead, having either been crushed in crowd or trampled into the mud by the surging crowd. The English army routed the disorganized French army a short battle of hand to hand fighting and not only survived what would have been a fatal blow to the House of Lancaster's claim on the French throne, but put them in a position to strengthen their claim. The French nobility (i.e. the administrators) in the region of the battle was decimated in the battle (mostly trampled/suffocated/drowned in the mud), leaving the English with solid control over the territory.
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Nov 25, 2015 01:46
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Venusian Weasel posted:A crowd crush helped the heavily outnumbered English army beat the French at the Battle of Agincourt. Was there any particular reason that the French needed to attack at that time? Could they have delayed until conditions were more favorable or did they think they were just going to walk it and win?
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Nov 25, 2015 11:14
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It was either attack right now or surrender
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Nov 25, 2015 11:23
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ultrabindu posted:Was there any particular reason that the French needed to attack at that time? Could they have delayed until conditions were more favorable or did they think they were just going to walk it and win? By modern accounts the French outnumbered the English by anywhere from 2 to 1, to 6 to 1. That's (usually!) a pretty drat good reason to attack.
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Nov 25, 2015 11:30
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ultrabindu posted:Was there any particular reason that the French needed to attack at that time? Could they have delayed until conditions were more favorable or did they think they were just going to walk it and win? Both really - the English provoked them into attacking since they knew the French were stronger on the defence but the French knights completely disregarded the archers which made up the bulk of the English army. IIRC this was the beginning of the end for chivalry, as the noblemen in full plate were effectively massacred by lightly armoured peasants at range.
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Nov 25, 2015 11:38
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8 Ball posted:Both really - the English provoked them into attacking since they knew the French were stronger on the defence but the French knights completely disregarded the archers which made up the bulk of the English army. IIRC this was the beginning of the end for chivalry, as the noblemen in full plate were effectively massacred by lightly armoured peasants at range. Except like Venusian Weasel said above, it wasn't really the longbows that killed them. Although they helped contribute, most of the 'killing' by the English troops proper was done in melee range after the exhausted French reached them.
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Nov 25, 2015 16:59
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8 Ball posted:Both really - the English provoked them into attacking since they knew the French were stronger on the defence but the French knights completely disregarded the archers which made up the bulk of the English army. IIRC this was the beginning of the end for chivalry, as the noblemen in full plate were effectively massacred by lightly armoured peasants at range.  at chivalry ever existing. Sir Thomas Malory made that poo poo up.
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Nov 25, 2015 17:21
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Since we are discussing crowd crush I have some lovely morning commute footage for you! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlNyCHlLt1Y Fun water park! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inA-36YRV0Y Fake edit: no one is hurt, but boy did I hyperventilate through both these vids! Fun!
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Nov 25, 2015 20:14
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Kiss Kiss Bang Bang posted:Since we are discussing crowd crush I have some lovely morning commute footage for you! Do the Japanese have some sort of weird adaptation to being crammed together like sardines? Also that pool "water" in the second one has to be 90% urine
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Nov 25, 2015 20:41
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Kiss Kiss Bang Bang posted:
After reading the firsthand account & watching the 30 for 30 on the Hillsborough disaster... While searching for the reason that I never see Halloween-themed Bic lighters, I stumbled on this article from April of 1987 about Bic lighters exploding in people's pockets and hands, how the "body count" was deemed too low for recalls, and how the company paid off a gently caress ton of people in lawsuits. At some point it looks like they decided to add something called a fork spring to better control the gas valve-- although the article seems to be written before that change took place. quote:About 4 a.m. on Oct. 28, 1984, Kenneth Lovli stopped to light a cigarette after leaving a friend's Halloween party in Clearwater, Fla. Lovli flicked his Bic disposable lighter and in seconds he was on fire. When police and paramedics arrived, they found the handsome, 23-year-old engineering student standing dazed in the middle of the street. He was burned from his neck to his knees. Seventeen days later, Lovli died. quote:The defect keeps the lighter from automatically shutting off after the thumb lever that controls the flow of butane fuel is released. When the automatic shut-off does not seal properly, a small blue flame keeps burning below the wind shield of the lighter. Known in the industry as afterburn or failure to extinguish, this defect can also result in small explosions and flash fires as the lighter overheats and melts or ruptures the plastic cylinder holding the butane. The problem can be especially deadly if it occurs in a user's pocket or purse. Because liquid butane vaporizes into a gas that is two to three times heavier than air, it will accumulate in the area of the spill, forming a cloud of gas that can be ignited by a spark, including static electricity. quote:While playing outside her home in Westport, Ky., the 9-year-old found a Bic lighter on the side of a road and picked it up. When she flicked it, the lighter sprayed butane "like a flamethrower" onto her chest, face and neck, according to her attorney and court records in the case. quote:...in a statement last week, issued in response to questions from The Inquirer about the lighter's safety, Bic said: "Whenever a person uses a match or a lighter, he or she is creating a spark or flame, and fire, of course, is inherently dangerous. It is the very nature of lighters and matches which make them dangerous and demands the utmost in caution from the people who use them." Interesting little bit of history... pack it yo has a new favorite as of 01:17 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 01:13
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pack it yo posted:..in a statement last week, issued in response to questions from The Inquirer about the lighter's safety, Bic said: "Whenever a person uses a match or a lighter, he or she is creating a spark or flame, and fire, of course, is inherently dangerous. It is the very nature of lighters and matches which make them dangerous and demands the utmost in caution from the people who use them." That's like their razors randomly decapitating people by ejecting the blades at them and Bic going, "Well you know, razors are sharp and can be dangerous so it's your own fault if you're not careful and our razor malfunctions and chops off your head."
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Nov 26, 2015 03:20
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DandyLion posted:Except like Venusian Weasel said above, it wasn't really the longbows that killed them. Although they helped contribute, most of the 'killing' by the English troops proper was done in melee range after the exhausted French reached them. Maybe not the longbows as such but the longbowmen themselves  Just a bunch of dudes in boiled leather or whatever going round and bashing in the heads of knights too weak to respond.
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Nov 26, 2015 13:38
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theflyingorc posted:The paper, sure - but the problem is more systemic than particularly pointed towards any given person. Dear god that's horrifying. People being brutally crushed and asphyxiated as they scream for help... and there's no dramatic cause. No stampede, no fire, no running from an explosion. Just a human tide slowly pushing forward. Just one person crowding another into pushing another into pushing harder on another into crushing another alive. The people at the back don't even realize they're obliterating people up front.
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Nov 27, 2015 05:01
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