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What? Did he crash the thing in between posting the ad and now?  At least the FZ1 is practically new. <1000mi.
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Nov 28, 2015 23:24
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EkardNT posted:I've held off on upgrading my 06 gs500 before now due to financial uncertainties, but I've saved up $8k specifically for a new bike and I'm ready to get myself a nice Christmas present. I enjoy fast, sporty bikes, either naked or faired (dream bike is the Tuono or Superduke GT). Must-haves are fuel injection, not being older than my current bike, and being noticeably more fast/fun. I'd also love ABS due to Seattle, but that might not be possible at my price point. It also needs to reachable by bus from downtown Seattle, as my current bike is my only transportation. Alright, settle in, because this is gonna be a long one. Motorcycle Purchasing by Evolutionary Jump So, you're looking to buy a new motorcycle. You've got some amount of experience under your belt, you're ready to take the leap and spend a decent chunk of cash on a bike. Or, you've got a motorcycle, and you like it, but you're looking for something different. Setting aside the cosmetic preferences, because those are always deeply individual, it's important to realize that motorcycles are essentially pretty simple machines, and have only had a handful of major evolutionary jumps in the last 4 decades or so. In fact, they're so simple, we can roughly divide the progress of motorcycles in to 3 groups. The Universal Motorcycles Starting from the beginning, you can take any motorcycle that was made roughly pre-1985 as having a welded together pile of hot garbage for suspension, frame, and engine. They might have made a reasonable amount of power, and had some scoot for the time, but they didn't handle well, they had tires that no modern bike would be caught dead with, and they can be broadly defined as "terrifying" to ride fast, as they headshake, flex, and wobble their way through the corners without significant assistance. Your UJM fits in this catagory, generally and across the board. These bikes are great if you're into tinkering, you don't care overmuch about speed, reliability, or performance, and you like a motorcycle for the experience of burning oil, learning the tricks of your carbs, getting the starting sequence just right, and a collapsing suspension waveform reminiscent of your grandparent's Caddy every time you hit a bump. These sort of bikes can be rather fun (I, after all, willingly took on a CBX project), but you'll drive yourself crazy trying to make it something it's not. At best, you can push these bikes towards the next evolutionary period, or buy ones that were on the forefront of performance, like the GSX-R1100s. The Suspension Wars The Suspension Wars started after Kawasaki gave up on absurd anti dive systems and folks started to understand that targeted rigidity in a motorcycle frame was a very good idea. A number of things combined to raise the bar in these years, which roughly stretch from 1990 up until the late 2000s. This was the start of real cartridge forks, which are notable for having a compliant reaction to large bumps while also being tunable to manage suspension dive at slower speeds. This period also heralded the start of real tire technology, where all of the sudden you could pitch a bike around a corner significantly faster and more aggressively than previous. The characteristics of bikes from this catagory are primarily found in 17 inch wheels, running a 3.5 inch front and at least a 4.5 inch rear. This was also where the horsepower game started to proceed a little slower, and the racing classes started to form into coherent 600 and literbike classes. The early bikes from this age are the Kawasaki ZX-6E, the Honda 929, and the big 4 literbikes and 600s starting in roughly 2000. This tech also started to trickle down to the standards and other bikes, or get robbed from the faster stuff and refitted for use on those bikes, which now had the baseline frame to handle someone throwing significantly stiffer forks and higher quality suspension at it. The humble SV650 fits in this catagory - with aggressive modding, it can take advantage of modern suspension and tires and get itself around a track very quickly. The important thing to realize about all of these bikes, though, is that they have fixed the primary issues with The Universal Motorcycle years, mainly poor suspension and an inability to handle the forces created by cornering, and created an arc of suspension and performance that drove motorcycle performance forward across the board in incredible ways. At this point, any bike from those days, properly setup, could probably do 170mph pretty sanely. Many of them would start to come close to that off the factory floor, and by the later days, would surpass that entirely. The Electronics Wars At this point, the big 4 manufacturers were locked in a cut and thrust on who could shave the closest to the limit with suspension and power. And then BMW dropped the bombshell that was the S1000RR, and fired the first shot in The Electronic Wars. BMW had realized that the modern problem with bikes wasn't that their suspension wasn't up to par, it was that there was no way to put that kind of power down that we were moving towards with a squishy human brain via a single analog input, and the future was providing electronic assistance to get the rider around a track faster. This also let them build a staggeringly powerful engine while also being able to keep it from acquiring the same reputation as the ZX10R as a widowmaker. With the power of electronics, it was possible to manage an engine that would have historically been unmanageable. By tuning a fly by wire setup to manage power curves, by modulating the throttle bodies independently from what the rider requested, it is possible to turn a monster of a motorcycle into a completely calm, controlled ride. Turn the electronics off, and things are gonna get legit, real fast, but if you leave everything on, you've just turned your superbike into a scooter, and frankly, a large chunk of the population is looking for superbike looks with scooter performance. The start of The Electronics Wars began with the S1000RR, and now just about everyone is on board with it, even Suzuki, the slowest of the Big 4. Buying Smart and Cheap So, knowing what you know now, you should realize that there are some easy cost to performance optimizations to make here. Buying any literbike supersport made in the last 8 years without electronics, for example, is a terrible idea, because you're buying endgame tech from the Suspension Wars, which was obsoleted immediately by the S1000RR. Lots of people are out there looking at 5 year old supersports, not realize they may as well just buy a 12 year old supersport for 60% of the price, because the actual performance is going to be pretty much the same. You're not going to know that you could have been doing 135 rather than 125 when you hammer the throttle on a, say, 02 CBR929RR, vs a 2012 GSX-R750. In fact, I'd bet there's no difference at all if you took a nice condition 929 with all of the suspension properly set up and placed it against a 2012 GSX-R750 with the same setup. Except that the 929 rider would be willing to throw down faster lap times because the Gixxer rider has another 5k tied up in their bike. The best value is in finding the bikes that pushed their way through most of their evolutionary period the earliest. For the UJMs, I find that in the oddball, like the CBX, which sells itself on engine absurdity over performance. For the Suspension Wars epoch, you're looking at bikes like the SV650, the Honda 929, the early R1, the early upright sportbikes if you're into upright sporting stuff (94 Honda F2, for example - early cartridge forks). Any supersport from 2005 to around 2011 (excepting the S1000RR) is going to be functionally identical and preferences will be down to idiosyncrasies of the rider. If you're looking to spend in the range of the previous 5 years, you should be looking for the bikes that jumped on the early traction control bandwagon - the S1000RR, ZX10, R1, the 1198. There's also some oddball choices in there like the MV Agusta F4, but Italians always come with some overhead. So what's the short list for me of bikes that hit this sweet spot? For The Suspension Wars days: The torquier, more upright, 4 cylinder 600s - ZX6E, Honda F2/F3/F4, CB600F, YZF600R The upright twins: SV650, Tuono. The Supersports: Early 636 ZX6Rs, early CBR600RRs, Honda 929/954, early R1s (pre-dual undertail), early RSV Milles, early ZX10s. Upright large displacement bikes: ZRX, Bandit 1200, early FZ1s, CBX1100R, ZX11, ZX12. Spending more than you spend on these bikes is definitely into the point of diminishing returns on performance per dollar spent. If you're looking to score an early contender to the electronics wars, you're looking at the following bikes (in order of personal preference). RSV4 (TC equipped models, obviously) R1 (2012+) ZX10 (2011+) S1000RR (09+) 1198 (or 1098 models with TC) There you go. You'll note that nearly all of your bikes fit into the catagory of max spend during Suspension Wars years, which just tweaks me out from a spending money on bikes standpoint. These are the bikes I'd be looking at: http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/mcy/5328010940.html http://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/mcy/5332057824.html http://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/mcy/5328858513.html http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/mcy/5310380956.html http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/mcy/5304850531.html http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/mcy/5334645024.html Spending 8k on something that doesn't have some form of electronics is insanity, IMO. You could also buy a new 2012 R1 for awhile for ~9.5k. Spending 8.5k on one is crazy. Z3n fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Nov 29, 2015 |
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Nov 29, 2015 00:05
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Also sport bikes like an R1 are a lot more uncomfortable than non sport bikes like FZ*.
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Nov 29, 2015 00:17
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Z3n posted:A font of knowledge Incredible post. I don't know enough about bikes to judge what a good value is, and I guess it shows! I'll be contacting several of those ads you posted.
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Nov 29, 2015 00:44
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EkardNT posted:Incredible post. I don't know enough about bikes to judge what a good value is, and I guess it shows! I'll be contacting several of those ads you posted. You learn through buying piles of bikes or doing a lot of reading, hopefully this short circuits that a bit for you. 
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Nov 29, 2015 00:49
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Z3n posted:Spending 8k on something that doesn't have some form of electronics is insanity, IMO. I'd love a sub-8k bike with electronics 
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Nov 29, 2015 01:22
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Slavvy posted:I'd love a sub-8k bike with electronics Then you shouldn't have abandoned the pound. 
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Nov 29, 2015 04:11
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I'll sell u a cb900f with a ti-84 glued to the tank My asking price is £3475 
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Nov 29, 2015 11:39
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OK fellas, how's this plan sound? I have a 08 Street Triple and an old K75 right now (in the past I've had a ninjette, a KL650, and I've spent some pretty serious saddle time on the older BMW 1150 GS). I love my Striple, but I've had it a few years now and since bikes are toys- I want to try something new. I kind of thought on Harleys for a while, but decided I just can't cope with something that heavy and that carries that little fuel for what I do. I essentially LOVE my Striple but it's just too small, poo poo's too hard to strap onto the thing for my longer distance trips. Soo... I'm thinking maybe a MotoGuzzi Griso. The Speed Triple and Ducati Monster is also on the list, but the Speed is a lot closer to the machine I ride than a VTwin and the Duck costs quite a bit more. Anyone have strong opinions on the Guzzi good or bad? Also I'm not getting rid of the K75. Best loving engine ever. Not the most powerful, or the most efficient, but I loving adore the smooth operation and the sound it makes. I will loving own that ugly piece of poo poo until the day I die.
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Nov 29, 2015 12:48
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Z3n posted:
This is nice
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Nov 29, 2015 13:29
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Z3n posted:Alright, settle in, because this is gonna be a long one.
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Nov 29, 2015 14:39
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PadreScout posted:Soo... I'm thinking maybe a MotoGuzzi Griso. The Speed Triple and Ducati Monster is also on the list, but the Speed is a lot closer to the machine I ride than a VTwin and the Duck costs quite a bit more. The green ones are really pretty, but I'm pretty sure it was only available for one year.  edit: the Griso makes a little more power than your striple, twice the torque, but weighs a hundred pounds more. The MG factory racks and luggage look terrible.  I can't seem to find any shots of the luggage mounted on GIS. So I'm guessing not many people buy them. I see a few shots of what appears to be Shad / Givi hard bags and a bunch of shots of lovely soft luggage draped over the seat. Here's a link to Givi racks https://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idProduct=74073 Some folks appear to make a tail rack https://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=39064 https://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=74074 But it doesn't really sound like you're looking for the ability to carry luggage (there are existing options for your street triple http://www.giviusa.com/my-motorcycle/triumph/street-triple-675-07-11/te705-easylock-saddlebag-support-detail). Instead, it sounds like you're shopping for an Italian V-Twin. kuffs fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Nov 29, 2015 |
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Nov 29, 2015 20:58
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I've seen more than 1 review that said Griso's seat locks you in one position and it gets really annoying on longer rides. Not sure how true that is
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Nov 29, 2015 23:50
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Is there a reason behind the Griso's two different muffler sizes or is that just an aesthetic thing?
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Nov 30, 2015 00:12
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AFAIK it's just one muffler with two tips. So purely aesthetic.
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Nov 30, 2015 01:07
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Modern Guzzis have Italian syndrome worse than the average so be aware of that before getting one. Having said that, though, Grisos are fairly fun to ride. It's just a naked Italian muscle bike. Although the muscle is not a lot considering its displacement.
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Nov 30, 2015 05:16
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kuffs posted:The green ones are really pretty, but I'm pretty sure it was only available for one year. Yeah, you could say I'm looking for an Italian V-Twin. I just want something with a lot of difference from what I've been riding. My triple is a high output high strung motor, I figured something with more torque on the low-end, maybe a bit lazy would be interesting. The Italians just make stuff that appeals to me for some reason. Like I said, I considered Harleys for a while but never could decide on one I liked, the XR1200s are close but they have a freaking 2.something gallon tank - I need 120-140 mile range to do the rides me and my old man take. Out in West Texas and Southern New Mexico there are too many places to run out of gas if you can't break at least 100 mile range. As far as luggage, I just have a Kriega bag I stick behind me on the seat- I travel pretty light and we're never gone more than like 3 days, so I don't really need full saddle bags. Thanks for the input though, I appreciate it.
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Nov 30, 2015 06:33
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:Modern Guzzis have Italian syndrome worse than the average so be aware of that before getting one. Having said that, though, Grisos are fairly fun to ride. It's just a naked Italian muscle bike. Although the muscle is not a lot considering its displacement. Naked italian I-go-to-the-gym-once-a-week-but-eat-no-protein bike.
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Nov 30, 2015 06:37
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PadreScout posted:Yeah, you could say I'm looking for an Italian V-Twin. I just want something with a lot of difference from what I've been riding. My triple is a high output high strung motor, I figured something with more torque on the low-end, maybe a bit lazy would be interesting. The Italians just make stuff that appeals to me for some reason. Like I said, I considered Harleys for a while but never could decide on one I liked, the XR1200s are close but they have a freaking 2.something gallon tank - I need 120-140 mile range to do the rides me and my old man take. Out in West Texas and Southern New Mexico there are too many places to run out of gas if you can't break at least 100 mile range. Truth be told the Sportster was never intended to be any kind of a touring or distance bike, they (street versions) were designed as an "urban runabout". The XR1200 was designed after the XR750, a flattracker. But it does have a 3.5 gallon tank which would get you into the 120-140 range, as long as you are "reasonable" in the application of your right hand, which would show great self restraint on a XR1200. But yeah, the Italians do make some nice eye candy machines, but, as others have said they are mechanically "finicky". Have a little more Italian "spice" MGX-21 
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Nov 30, 2015 09:52
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Don't forget the Shiver in your Italian V-Twin list. Everybody always forgets Aprilia, even Z3n when he claims the S1000 started the electronics wars despite having a less-sophisticated TC system than APRC on release, a whole year after the first APRC-equipped RSVs hit the streets. Count the SBK wins, krauts.
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Nov 30, 2015 10:56
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Shiver looks interesting. Aprilia dealer up the road from me has a 2013 they claim is brand new for 6 grand. I'll have to research what changed between 13 and 16 year models.
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Nov 30, 2015 12:58
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PadreScout posted:Shiver looks interesting. Aprilia dealer up the road from me has a 2013 they claim is brand new for 6 grand. Not a huge amount - ABS now comes as standard, quite a few cosmetic changes, but '12 onwards are nigh identical mechanically.
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Nov 30, 2015 13:25
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 This is a fantastic post.
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Nov 30, 2015 13:34
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Don't forget the Shiver in your Italian V-Twin list. Yeah but they only put it on some models that were heinously expensive initially. They did do it first, and do it better, though, you're right. Just not mass market like BMW.
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Nov 30, 2015 21:10
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Smudgie Buggler posted:Yeah, that would have been my pick. Can't hurt to go check it out. If it's been as well looked-after as the seller says (not certain, but certainly plausible) then there's no reason why it should be temperamental nor especially expensive to maintain. I know gently caress all about wrenching myself, but I wouldn't be afraid to fiddle about a bit on one of these a little bit, especially if it comes with a good service manual. I can't imagine the SRV250 would be any easier, now that I think about it. When I say I have no mechanical knowledge I mean, really, no mechanical knowledge. I've only been riding for a few years and I'm one of those people who relies on their mechanic for everything and I'd rather admit that than bite off more than I can chew. I know I absolutely need to change that and at least learn how to service and maintain my own bikes, but starting on a 35-year old bike is probably not the place to do it. Also $5,000 is really my absolute max and would leave me with very little left over for quite a while, so I'd be in the poo poo if something did go majorly wrong and I needed to replace parts. I'm thinking now if I get a tide-over bike to ride until April or May when I can afford something bigger, I might abandon the retro aesthetic and go back to having a 250 or 450 dual sport. For a start there's a lot more of them up for sale.
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Dec 2, 2015 02:45
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Slavvy posted:I'd love a sub-8k bike with electronics You mean brake lights aren't electronics? 
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Dec 2, 2015 03:56
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clutchpuck posted:You mean brake lights aren't electronics? Do headlights count then? 
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Dec 2, 2015 04:04
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If it has a semiconductor (transistor, diode) or a vacuum tube in it, and it uses electrons to control other electrons, it's electronic. If it doesn't have any of those components, and all of the electron control is mechanical or physical (switches, relays) then it's just electrical. Traditional incandescent head/brake lights connected via a switch to a battery: electrical, not electronic. (Any bike with a solid-state rectifier, i.e. everything since the late 60s that has an alternator and a battery, has "electronics" in it though) Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Dec 2, 2015 |
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Dec 2, 2015 04:13
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cursedshitbox posted:Do headlights count then? They do if they're LEDs! 
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Dec 2, 2015 06:13
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builds character posted:They do if they're LEDs! LED *and* HID.
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Dec 2, 2015 06:29
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WR250 or DRZ400S? For mostly dirt/trail/woodland shenanigans, minimal country back roads. My concerns are lack of power with the WR250, and weight with the DRZ.
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Dec 2, 2015 06:53
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I don't think there's any clear winner there is there? The weight differential is like 20 pounds, so it's not like you're saving all that much, they're both pretty fat. That said, the WR250 has FI and 6 gears for getting to the dirt
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Dec 2, 2015 07:09
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WR has better suspension out of the box. DRZ will do better drifts.
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Dec 2, 2015 08:04
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Do goons hate the KLX?
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Dec 2, 2015 16:04
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Dutymode posted:Do goons hate the KLX? We only have enough love for one Kawasaki, the Ninjette. Really though I would be happy with any of those 3 dual sports, the Kawi is carbed (a bit strange for TYOOL 2015) but who cares they are stupid easy to work on. The Kawi is also significantly cheaper than the Yamaha, something like $1500 less MSRP. If I had to choose it would be the WR but that mostly comes down to looks, even with the Gonzo nose. 
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Dec 2, 2015 16:40
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I'm pretty sure the KLX is FI and longer maintenance intervals than the WR, the DRZ is still carbed. Really how many riders here could benefit from the performance of the WR over the KLX?
Dutymode fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Dec 2, 2015 |
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Dec 2, 2015 16:41
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exc300!
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Dec 2, 2015 17:07
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builds character posted:exc300! This is the only bike I've rode that truly scared me. Get on the pipe and 
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Dec 2, 2015 17:12
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clutchpuck posted:This is the only bike I've rode that truly scared me. Get on the pipe and so... you have two? 
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Dec 2, 2015 18:36
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No, it was a friend's. I crashed it into a tree the moment it hit the power.
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Dec 2, 2015 20:30
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