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Trent posted:What everyone knows in 2015 if that the concept of "going on a diet" doesn't work. Then why does almost every woman's magazine you see at the checkout line have something about a fad diet on it?
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Dec 3, 2015 20:00
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fishmech posted:That people are willing to convince themselves "well it's ok for me" has little bearing on whether they actually know it's real bad. They don't need to know that +34 pounds of weight equals directly 167% increased risk of health condition subtype B, which is the level on which they "don't understand the health effects". Maybe the things I've already suggested upthread. Certainly not yelling at anyone. Free, incentivized health screenings and dietician consultations. Food scales. SNAP for all. Government funded independent help line for losing weight/ eating better/ being healthy. Market the poo poo out of " you can do it, we will help, it's free and you'll live longer and feel better and not have your foot amputated in your hoveround. Or resign ourselves to being the people from Wall-E, and just laugh at the fats while they eat away at our health care costs, smug in our own sense of superior intellect, willpower, and sexiness.
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Dec 3, 2015 20:03
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Cole posted:But it all comes down to the same basic principle: eat less. Even if it's less lovely foods. And that is pretty common knowledge. http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6532632
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Dec 3, 2015 20:04
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Cole posted:Then why does almost every woman's magazine you see at the checkout line have something about a fad diet on it? Why would you need a new fad diet every month if they worked? Desperate people grasp even at things they don't think will work. Also, few think "women's magazines" are serious journalism or nutrition advice, they are a fun distraction/ toilet read, and people like to take the tiny step of buying a magazine to tell themselves they're doing something about it, but don't actually follow through with anything. This is extremely common. The Bloop fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 20:04
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Trent posted:Or resign ourselves to being the people from Wall-E, and just laugh at the fats while they eat away at our health care costs, smug in our own sense of superior intellect, willpower, and sexiness.
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Dec 3, 2015 20:07
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Trent posted:Why would you need a new fad diet every month if they worked? But you said Trent posted:What everyone knows in 2015 if that the concept of "going on a diet" doesn't work.
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Dec 3, 2015 20:08
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Trent posted:Maybe the things I've already suggested upthread. Certainly not yelling at anyone. None of that really helps. You just need people to eat less food, there's no real need to change the particular foods unless they've gone so far to an extreme that they're actually at risk of suffering malnutrition. And while expanding SNAP is a great idea, it's not for any benefit towards losing weight, but rather because the current system leaves far too many people unable to afford enough food.
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Dec 3, 2015 20:08
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twodot posted:Is there evidence that obesity is a net health care cost? People dying at 50 from a heart attack seems cheaper than at 80 from various cancers. I'm not suggesting obesity as a cost saving mechanism, just that promoting health as cost saving incentive is sometimes counterintuitive. They die slow of diabetes and crippling heart ailments, and in the meantime they destroy their joints and suffer from innumerable other issues. Fats take up much more healthcare, and the fatter they are the more they cost over time. Getting them from fat to thin would be much, much more effective and humane than waiting for them to croak.
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Dec 3, 2015 20:11
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Also there's the non insignificant extra cost to infrastructure like bridge/road/sidewalks/elevators/railways from the scooters that have their weight and a half added to them since it just gets too gosh darn hard to walk, the need for larger and larger ambulances, mental health consoling for people who have to see 1 ton corpse blobs fused to scooters or couches, trash and sewage has to be expanded etc...
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Dec 3, 2015 20:16
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Mr. Wookums posted:Also there's the non insignificant extra cost to infrastructure like bridge/road/sidewalks/elevators/railways from the scooters that have their weight and a half added to them since it just gets too gosh darn hard to walk, the need for larger and larger ambulances, All of these already have to be in place for people on regular old wheelchairs though, so only way to avoid that would be like, building robot exoskeletons so wheelchair bound people can walk normally.
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Dec 3, 2015 20:20
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Fox Cunning posted:A small difference makes a large effect in the long run. This goes for both gaining and losing weight. In any case health should be more emphasized than weight, though there's a correlation, and exercise is definitely an important measure in getting healthier. Its complicated. Things like EPOC and the metabolic increase associated with muscle gains are demonstrably pretty negligible when you really scrutinize the effects. But there are lots of secondary effects to consider. For example, a lot of people eat more when they are bored, or just sitting around at home with nothing else to do. I know I personally eat a lot more on lazy weekends at home than I do when I am busy doing something more active. There's also some evidence that, paradoxically, intense physical activity can reduce appetite instead of increasing it as you think it would. My personal feeling is a lot of excess eating is out of boredom, habit, or just being surrounded by lots of food and having nothing much else to do. Eating feels good, and if you're surrounded by food and not doing much else its fair odds you'll end up eating something. Part of the importance of exercise might just be in blocking off time where you aren't eating, and giving your brain some source of reward other than food. As far as exercise vs. diet goes, for me it has always boiled down to the fact that being hungry sucks, while being active doesn't (necessarily). People can find even extremely intense physical activity to be rewarding, even fun, and certainly it can be habit forming. This is especially true if there is a social component, or if you pick up a physical hobby where the activity becomes a part of your overall life goals. For me, the balance between diet and exercise is mostly about finding a lifestyle that lets me eat an appropriate amount of calories while not being miserable; it's not really about which one is more effective on its own for weight control.
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Dec 3, 2015 20:36
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fishmech posted:All of these already have to be in place for people on regular old wheelchairs though, so only way to avoid that would be like, building robot exoskeletons so wheelchair bound people can walk normally. Maybe force fat people to smoke as that will help out with sheer quantity of eating, and if not it'll at least take some years off their lives.
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Dec 3, 2015 20:42
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twodot posted:Is there evidence that obesity is a net health care cost? People dying at 50 from a heart attack seems cheaper than at 80 from various cancers. I'm not suggesting obesity as a cost saving mechanism, just that promoting health as cost saving incentive is sometimes counterintuitive. The person who died at 80 from cancer has probably paid into the system for 60 years, and probably only incurred significant medical expenses quite late in life. Heart attack at 50 guy on the other hand never made it to retirement age, possibly spent at least some of his working-age life unable to work or working at reduced productivity, and started racking up expensive chronic health problems at a much earlier age.
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Dec 3, 2015 20:56
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Trent posted:And people certainly don't know what to do about it and how to really change. Even putting some effort in, there are hugely contradictory sources of information out there. Heck, even in this thread, half* the people are posting complete bullshit that is obviously untrue.  *Feel free to decide for yourself which half that is
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Dec 3, 2015 21:07
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Mr. Wookums posted:A regular person in a wheelchair or scooter might be able to go up a 1:5 incline, where a rascal probably won't have the HP to get a lard-rear end up such a steep slope. Uh what? It's the other way around, some dumb mobility scooter will be more likely to handle any given dude in a regular wheelchair. Yeah your wheelchair athletes and others like them can handle anything, but the rule for new wheelchair ramp slope since the 90s, under the ADA, is to try for 1:12 inclne or shallower whenever possible, and stuff like 1:10 or 1:9 or steeper is only allowed for trying to retrofit ramps into inherently cramped environments, or when you're trying to retrofit a historical marked structure without significantly disturbing the appearance.
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Dec 3, 2015 21:13
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fishmech posted:Uh what? It's the other way around, some dumb mobility scooter will be more likely to handle any given dude in a regular wheelchair. Yeah your wheelchair athletes and others like them can handle anything, but the rule for new wheelchair ramp slope since the 90s, under the ADA, is to try for 1:12 inclne or shallower whenever possible, and stuff like 1:10 or 1:9 or steeper is only allowed for trying to retrofit ramps into inherently cramped environments, or when you're trying to retrofit a historical marked structure without significantly disturbing the appearance.
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Dec 3, 2015 21:20
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fishmech posted:People already know that being fat is bad for health though. Maybe there's some guy living in the desert who has had no contact with the outside world who still thinks being fat is healthy, but you're not going to reach him. fishmech posted:Those people know it's bad for them, also there's barely any of them. Like 50,000 internet nerds wordwide aren't setting the narrative for the US. I think you're overestimating how aware people are of this stuff. You're right that people know being fat isn't healthy. You can point at a 300 pounder and the vast majority of Americans will go "Yeah being that fat is bad for you", but there are articles coming out weekly misrepresenting studies* such as the one that shows that fat people are more likely to live longer than thin people (because it measures weight at time of death, and many diseases do a number on someone's weight before finishing them off), as well as a general shift into what's viewed as "average" and "normal". The average 160 pound woman or 180 pound man in America (going off average height for each sex) don't consider themselves fat at all even though they're significantly overweight and aren't likely to think that their physical condition is actively harmful to them rather than "just carrying a few extra pounds" or "not an athlete". This is continually reinforced by a media that tells them about real people, showing them fat people Just Like Them, and constantly talks about the cultural obsession with being thin (one that isn't reflected in our population or our behavior). If you aren't seeing any of this then I don't know what to say. The problem isn't that people don't know fat isn't healthy, it's that they're recognizing less and less what being fat looks like. * A couple examples picked off the first page of Google results: quote:So, while I cannot tell you when "obesity" becomes a major health problem, I can definitely tell you that being "overweight" is the healthiest and most "normal" weight of all. quote:If scientific opinion now states that overweight people live the longest, surely it’s in everyone’s interest to be overweight. It's not hard at all to find more examples of this being published in major media outlets. The opposite view being published draws mucho vitriol and protests even from non-HAES crazies.
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Dec 3, 2015 21:37
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Brannock posted:I think you're overestimating how aware people are of this stuff. I think you're insane to look at Cosmo or GQ and conclude they are pushing/normalizing fatness. Or to look at the movies and conclude that they are normalizing fatness.
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Dec 3, 2015 21:40
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Effectronica posted:I think you're insane to look at Cosmo or GQ and conclude they are pushing/normalizing fatness. Or to look at the movies and conclude that they are normalizing fatness. No, but I do know that people will gripe and complain that the people depicted in those magazines and movies aren't "real" people, nor representative of them. Which to be fair, looking at the statistics and looking around when I go shopping, is accurate!
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Dec 3, 2015 21:46
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Brannock posted:No, but I do know that people will gripe and complain that the people depicted in those magazines and movies aren't "real" people, nor representative of them. Those people aren't the media, and I have a hard time viewing them as a huge problem when you look at anorexia and bulimia incidence rates.
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Dec 3, 2015 21:49
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Mr. Wookums posted:I did not know the incline ratios on the book, I was just referencing the ones I saw for streets in HK. Regardless of the details, an average person can help a non overweight person even via pushing while it may result in a fatality if they help the obese individual. Citation really needed on that last bit.
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Dec 3, 2015 21:56
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Soylent Yellow posted:The person who died at 80 from cancer has probably paid into the system for 60 years, and probably only incurred significant medical expenses quite late in life. Heart attack at 50 guy on the other hand never made it to retirement age, possibly spent at least some of his working-age life unable to work or working at reduced productivity, and started racking up expensive chronic health problems at a much earlier age. You're making a whole lot of assumptions that data doesn't really support. Mr. Wookums posted:mental health consoling for people who have to see 1 ton corpse blobs fused to scooters or couches, Christ dude, this is really a bit much. SlipUp posted:It worked for smokers. We shame all sorts of "harmless" behaviour to promote a healthier society. "Use willpower to prevent type 2 diabetes" is hardly the psychologically crippling bullying you're making it out to be. We've already had posters in this thread talk about how long they took trying to improve themselves only to be hampered by bad information from professionals and folks like you and Wookums actively mocking him and throwing trash at him from cars while he was exercising. The response to this? Posters mocking him on the next page while ignoring any of the useful points. Folks like you hate overweight people for being overweight and get in their way while they're trying to lose weight. What the gently caress do you guys want?
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Dec 3, 2015 22:59
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Brannock posted:No, but I do know that people will gripe and complain that the people depicted in those magazines and movies aren't "real" people, nor representative of them. Not to downplay the depression that can be caused by negative self-image, but looking at muscular dudes and going "wow I'm out of shape *joins gym for 2 sessions then quits" is a slightly different beast to women looking at skinny models and going "wow I'm fat and disgusting *forces self to vomit meals*" To be honest my anecdotal experiences tend to suggest that unfit dudes look at muscular dudes and feel bad about themselves then immediately turn around and attack women for being too fat in order to make themselves feel better. Anecdotal, of course, but then I'm not claiming to be Science Incarnate.
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Dec 3, 2015 23:11
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Solkanar512 posted:You're making a whole lot of assumptions that data doesn't really support. They were once fat, and expiate their self-loathing on fat people.
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Dec 3, 2015 23:22
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Solkanar512 posted:We've already had posters in this thread talk about how long they took trying to improve themselves only to be hampered by bad information from professionals and folks like you and Wookums actively mocking him and throwing trash at him from cars while he was exercising. The response to this? Posters mocking him on the next page while ignoring any of the useful points. Project a little bit harder why don't you? Losing the required amount of weight to be healthy is an extremely long and hard process that could takes years and never truly ends. I hit the gym 3 times a week and I know where I see an overweight person there I think to myself "Good for them". For every car that threw trash, there were hundreds that didn't. Being fat is unhealthy, getting a visual warning every time people want to indulge in fast food or a bag of chips would only benefit them. If a picture of an obese person is triggering to an obese person I think they're the ones being unreasonable. I want obese people to live past fifty with all their limbs, joints, and organs intact. I myself have provided several studies, including two from the same NCBI database you posted yourself in these thread. How about actually engaging me rather than all the fat haters you think I represent? If we want to venture into anecdote territory, an overweight female acquaintance once confided in me she'd do anything to lose the weight. I offered to be her gym buddy, show her proper technique and develop a very reasonable diet and exercise regime. She declined, worried that the gym would make her unattractive. I was flabbergast. Is that "being in her way"? I don't think so. I think ultimately she didn't really want to lose the weight that much. If you think allowing people to destroy their bodies on the off chance they might feel bad is doing them a favour, you are sorely mistaken.
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Dec 4, 2015 00:28
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SlipUp posted:I hit the gym 3 times a week and I know where I see an overweight person there I think to myself "Good for them". For every car that threw trash, there were hundreds that didn't. How many of the people who drove by cheered the person on? Hundreds of silent passer-bys and a single trash-throwing insult is a very different thing from hundreds of cheers and a single boo. You are right that personally supporting people is a fantastic thing to do, but kicking someone trying to improve themselves just makes them think 'what's the point?' One of these is noticeable, the other is silent. How many of the people you see there do you walk over and ask them how they're doing? If not, was it because you were worried you'd make them feel awkward?
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Dec 4, 2015 00:33
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Tesseraction posted:How many of the people who drove by cheered the person on? Hundreds of silent passer-bys and a single trash-throwing insult is a very different thing from hundreds of cheers and a single boo. The only people to talk to randos at gyms are creepers trying to pick up ladies. If they had exceptionally poor form I might intervene to save them from getting hurt, skinny or large. If people want vindication for making healthy choices maybe they should expect it from people who know them and care about them rather than total strangers. Haters gonna hate. People act like asses all the time, breaking down and giving in because of one incident leads me to believe maybe they weren't that committed anyway. Please note I have also recommended cognitive behavioural therapy several times in this thread, and it's exactly for this reason. e: I also fail to see how labelling bad choices as bad choices is kicking somebody when they're down. SlipUp fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Dec 4, 2015 |
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Dec 4, 2015 00:40
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ProperGanderPusher posted:Has anybody suggested fat shaming harder? I dunno, I lost weight during the period I completely embraced fat acceptance. Now I'm more skeptical, but I kept the weight off. I don't think there is causation in my case. The main cause is that I moved up from secondary to further education in a different institution (much smaller lunches that I prepared myself at home and more frequently walking back and forth to the place). However, I was generally happier with myself and more optimistic about the future at the time, which was partly related to my "live and let live" attitude towards everyone. What personally makes me negligent about my diet and exercise regime is the feeling that I'm a worthless person and there is no future for me or society at large. More information about the dangers of obesity is definitely a good thing, but as others pointed out, it isn't "fat-shaming" in and of itself. If coupled with messages about how having a problem doesn't make you a pariah and you can change, it can help. The problem is partly that we see obese people as "fatties" that will never change. Most of the worst obesity cases are in people who have had issues with their weight their entire life- it's not hard to see why they have such a defeatist attitude. To them, they will always be a fatty, so why not join this subculture that exalts that thing that has now become part of their identity? quote:I hit the gym 3 times a week and I know where I see an overweight person there I think to myself "Good for them". For every car that threw trash, there were hundreds that didn't. lol this is absurd reasoning and it could be applied to literally anything bad that happens to anyone ever.
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Dec 4, 2015 01:58
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fishmech posted:None of that really helps. We haven't tried it. You don't know. Stop acting like you do. You suggestion of "everyone should eat less, buy we shouldn't tell them why it how" is stupid and useless. It's true that if everyone ate less they would weigh less, but that is a tautology, not a public policy suggestion. It is patently obvious that people simply don't know either how bad their situation is and/or realistic non-terrible things they can do about it. If we really care about the issue we should make it as easy as possible for any citizen who wants to make a change. If someone doesn't want to offer support, then the answer to the obesity epidemic for that person is "who the gently caress cares" which is fine, if misanthropic and antisocial, but kind of means they should find another topic to post about. As far as expanding SNAP, I can definitely tell you that it's psychologically easier to buy healthier food which is more expensive when you know you can't also use that same money to buy gas or video games. Admittedly, if prefer a BI or even GMI, but that's not germane to the thread.
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Dec 4, 2015 02:01
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Tesseraction posted:How many of the people who drove by cheered the person on? Hundreds of silent passer-bys and a single trash-throwing insult is a very different thing from hundreds of cheers and a single boo. Being healthy is like taking care of your kids: you shouldn't need to be cheered on.
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Dec 4, 2015 02:19
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Weldon Pemberton posted:lol this is absurd reasoning and it could be applied to literally anything bad that happens to anyone ever. How is it absurd? I think expecting cars to cheer joggers on as some sort of moral obligation is absurd. Remember this is in regards to people's negative attitudes towards obese people trying to get in shape. One car being a gigantic rear end in a top hat does not mean everyone feels the same way. Extrapolating that negative attitude toward everybody you see again is projection and not factually true. SlipUp fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Dec 4, 2015 |
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Dec 4, 2015 02:32
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Trent posted:We haven't tried it. You don't know. Stop acting like you do. What? I have no problems with telling them how: you tell them to eat the same stuff they eat now, just less of it. And the why is "because then you won't be fat". This doesn't require a phd dissertation. Define healthier food first. Because dollars to donuts what you think is healthier is in no way meaningfully better to eat to excess then the stuff they're already eating.
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Dec 4, 2015 02:41
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Fishmech strikes again: proving truisms at the cost of thousands of words. Why don't you start a thread on preventing suicide? I'm sure depressed people would benefit from your brand of wisdom: just don't kill yourself!
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Dec 4, 2015 02:54
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Arglebargle III posted:Fishmech strikes again: proving truisms at the cost of thousands of words. Why don't you start a thread on preventing suicide? I'm sure depressed people would benefit from your brand of wisdom: just don't kill yourself! And your solution is what, eat this particular fad diet and not the other? To pretend people are really going to exercise enough to burn 800 extra calories a day everyday indefinitely?
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Dec 4, 2015 03:00
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Weldon Pemberton posted:lol this is absurd reasoning and it could be applied to literally anything bad that happens to anyone ever. you're literally advocating base rate neglect as valid reasoning while explicitly rejecting actual valid reasoning
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Dec 4, 2015 09:00
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SlipUp posted:How is it absurd? I think expecting cars to cheer joggers on as some sort of moral obligation is absurd. They don't have to cheer joggers on. People have the right to complain if something bad or unpleasant keeps happening to them, even if its only caused by 1 in 100 people. I also think it's just as weird to attribute a positive attitude to people as a negative one. Forums poster SlipUp may be thinking "good job, fatty" when he sees one on a treadmill but that doesn't matter at all to the fat guy, who can't read minds. Zodium posted:you're literally advocating base rate neglect as valid reasoning while explicitly rejecting actual valid reasoning You've misread my post, I'm not saying anything about the rate of fat shaming. SlipUp implied that the person should somehow be happy that only 1 in 10 people insulted them, and also that the fact he was thinking nice thoughts could somehow impact their self-esteem despite their not being able to perceive it. I don't disagree with the fact that fewer people will insult than say nothing; I disagree with the notion that this makes the insults no big deal. Thanks to human psychology, 1 in 10 people insulting you at the gym will generally discourage you from returning, though there's always the choice to push through it and go back anyway. Most unpleasant events and crimes have a fairly low incidence, but this is little comfort to people who have just experienced them.
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Dec 4, 2015 10:39
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"Well, six billion people didn't murder your fiancee, so man the gently caress up."
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Dec 4, 2015 10:49
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Weldon Pemberton posted:Most unpleasant events and crimes have a fairly low incidence, but this is little comfort to This really only makes sense for something like your wife getting hit by a meteor or sudden apocalypse, i.e., in the case of catastrophic/ruinous risks with very low probability and extremely punishing effects that you as an individual can't do anything about.
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Dec 4, 2015 10:51
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SlipUp posted:The only people to talk to randos at gyms are creepers trying to pick up ladies. This sounds more like a lovely culture more than a problem with the concept of 'talking to people.' SlipUp posted:If they had exceptionally poor form I might intervene to save them from getting hurt, skinny or large. If people want vindication for making healthy choices maybe they should expect it from people who know them and care about them rather than total strangers. That's not what I said, though. I never said you should cheer them on, I said that it's easier to drown out a boo in a chorus of cheers. If the only thing you get is the boo it has a much stronger effect. SlipUp posted:Haters gonna hate. People act like asses all the time, breaking down and giving in because of one incident leads me to believe maybe they weren't that committed anyway. This shows a massive misunderstanding of psychology which is weird given you immediately follow it up with: SlipUp posted:Please note I have also recommended cognitive behavioural therapy several times in this thread, and it's exactly for this reason. Which is much better psychological thought. SlipUp posted:e: I also fail to see how labelling bad choices as bad choices is kicking somebody when they're down. No, I mean making fun of an obese person for being fat while they're exercising is a very much kicking-while-down situation. Cole posted:Being healthy is like taking care of your kids: you shouldn't need to be cheered on. Again, re-read the post, I said it's easier to drown out negative comments in a hail of positive ones. If the only time you hear someone comment on your parenting is at the supermarket where someone walking past you shakes their head and says "people like you are ruining their children" or something you'd probably not just take it in your stride and ignore it, even if you don't verbally respond to the person. Edit: to clarify, my query about talking to someone at the gym was more about how there's a culture of keeping positive thoughts to one's self and being open with negative ones, it's part of why reviews for places/products tend to undersell the place/product in question since spite is a bigger motivator to write a review Tesseraction fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Dec 4, 2015 |
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Dec 4, 2015 10:54
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Yeah, fat people are just intrinsically irrational, there's no way we'll ever get them to stop engaging in base rate neglect, so let's instead try to make sure no one ever insults anyone.
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Dec 4, 2015 11:45
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