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ProfessorCirno posted:most non-spellcasters have more or less nothing to look forward to after level, like, 5 or 6. Yeah this is a thing that a couple of us PbPers picked up on; 5e probably would have been a whole lot better if it was like "you have 20 levels to build your character out of, but each Class only goes up to level 6." Like, outside of spellcasting there isn't much to look forward to (doubly so if you aren't a caster, because no you can't have nice things) Just as an example, Divine Strike -- across the various Cleric domains -- is some of the most loving  boring bullshit.
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Dec 9, 2015 10:55
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If food is still a major concern at 15th level your game has gone horribly wrong.
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Dec 9, 2015 13:32
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AlphaDog posted:e: I'm sorry about coming across as hostile, it wasn't intended. I actually kind of agree with what you're saying, I just don't think that this version of this game supports that sort of ability in the same way that it supports "+x hit +y damage" or "you can shoot an extra two arrows" or similar things. I haven't seen any material in Next that suggests that "you can't starve" or even "you can't catch diseases" is ever going to be as relevant as "you get an extra attack". That neat noncombat stuff used to come up heaps in AD&D hexcrawls and I have good memories of it, I just don't think it's relevant to the current game. I think that's completely fair. I also think the bigger problem is that any non casting class getting something at level up will uniformly be worse or at least less interesting (as an extra attack is powerful but dull) than a spell slot, which results in the only satisfying reward being a spell like ability.
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Dec 9, 2015 14:12
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mastershakeman posted:Well I've definitely had to track food on multiple characters and multiple campaigns, so being the one guy in the party who doesn't need to could be neat. Same with age coming up here and there but that's definitely less of a thing. Of course that doesn't even touch on the rping due to it Cat Face Joe posted:If food is still a major concern at 15th level your game has gone horribly wrong. Cat Face Joe has it right. Ignoring food and aging at, say, level 3 or so, might actually be worth something. You're still low enough level that the concept of a supply line or exploring somewhere and ending up stranded is a thing that can happen. By level 15, you've got spellcasters that can go across the world multiple times in a day, change planes, summon food, etc. The tone of your adventures has changed so much to the point that scrabbling for food isn't exactly in line with where you're at. If you are scrabbling for food, you're doing it on an epic scale, like some sort of ecological disaster is threatening a large city or an army that you care about or something. That being said, it's cool, but it can't take up the slot of something actually useful. It needs to either be early, or be in addition to something powerful. Edit: Goodberry is a level 1 Druid spell that converts a single sprig of mistletoe into food for 10 creatures, so it's still trivial to ignore starvation even at extremely low levels. Dirk the Average fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Dec 9, 2015 |
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Dec 9, 2015 14:22
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mastershakeman posted:I think that's completely fair. I also think the bigger problem is that any non casting class getting something at level up will uniformly be worse or at least less interesting (as an extra attack is powerful but dull) than a spell slot, which results in the only satisfying reward being a spell like ability. Part of the problem, I think, is that non-spell abilities depend heavily on the DM to make them interesting. Being able to automatically get lodging with a certain group of people *could* be a cool, interesting ability. Consider The One Ring, where being able to knock on Beorn's door and say "Yo, can we crash here?" is quite useful because travel is hard. But in D&D, it won't be interesting unless the DM makes the search for lodging interesting and necessary, and most DMs can't be bothered.
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Dec 9, 2015 15:37
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Really, things like not aging or needing to eat or drink should be treated as bonus things you get in addition to actual class features. But for monks, they're treated as on par with getting another attack or being able to get an extra action in a round. The wizard gets better class features than that plus full spellcasting.
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Dec 9, 2015 16:19
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I think this is similar to the feat problem where "get better at fighting" is occupying the same slot in a limited amount of possible character features as "roleplay-ish and/or utility gimmicks"
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Dec 9, 2015 16:56
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mastershakeman posted:I think that's completely fair. I also think the bigger problem is that any non casting class getting something at level up will uniformly be worse or at least less interesting (as an extra attack is powerful but dull) than a spell slot, which results in the only satisfying reward being a spell like ability. This is true depending on what you mean. If you mean that in D&D as we generally know it, non-spell options will tend to be worse because of the assumptions built into the game at this moment, then sure. If you mean that a non-spell option couldn't be as interesting as a spell option by definition, then I think you are pulling in a ton of unnecessary assumptions. The reason that an extra attack is powerful but dull is because there aren't any new decisions to make surrounding it. You do the same thing you just did again, and whether to take the attack or not isn't really a choice. You might attack a different target, but generally it will be the same. Interest comes from giving players real choices to make, by which I mean multiple options without an obvious single best one. The more diverse the options, the more interest you create. Nothing about that requires spells, it's just that spells are the only thing that's been put in the books that fulfills the conditions at this time.
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Dec 9, 2015 17:09
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Which comes to the problem that it's just easier to imagine a spell doing something than to imagine a dude doing something. I mean, a spell is just fiat. It happens, and it's magic, so of course it works. Whereas with a dude, you have to imagine how he's doing it. And he's just a regular dude, because in D&D, the assumption is that unless you have something explicitly magical about you, you're only doing regular dude stuff. There are solutions to the problem. One is to give fighter types similar narrative control. A swashbuckler class with a feature that they always have something like a chandelier or a convenient railing to jump, say, giving them mechanical benefits and the like in combat without having to play "DM may I." Another is to limit what magic does. A much stricter spell list that doesn't allow the mage to win at D&D. Or combine the two. But either of those are antithetical to the grognards responsible for this edition.
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Dec 9, 2015 20:37
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GrizzlyCow posted:Aging is a net benefit for casters, and it is also not very relevant in how most people do campaigns. We're talking a couple of decades for humans, and for non-humans, aging is a funny concept unless you're planning for a centuries spanning game. I think the only time aging stuff has come up was in the Pathfinder/Mythic game I played, where I picked up the Immortality mythic power because gently caress yeah living forever, and because as a Gnoll I was already 8 years into a 20-25 year lifespan. In comparison, the other mythic power I picked up let me add +20 to any Str roll or carrying capacity, which I used to kick down
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Dec 9, 2015 20:39
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Ambi posted:I think the only time aging stuff has come up was in the Pathfinder/Mythic game I played, where I picked up the Immortality mythic power because gently caress yeah living forever, and because as a Gnoll I was already 8 years into a 20-25 year lifespan. In comparison, the other mythic power I picked up let me add +20 to any Str roll or carrying capacity, which I used to kick down A decent number of these powers do come down to D&D desperate, sad, and neverending attempt to pretend it's something far more artsy then a simple "game." "I can live forever" makes sense in a lot of contexts, and basically none of them are D&D where your lifespan can be measured in seconds depending on the fight you're currently in. It also boils down to D&D's refusal to admit that killing monsters and not being killed by monsters is an overwhelmingly important part of the game, so you continue to get this problem: gradenko_2000 posted:I think this is similar to the feat problem where "get better at fighting" is occupying the same slot in a limited amount of possible character features as "roleplay-ish and/or utility gimmicks" Again, this makes sense in a more narrative game where you aren't expected to fight all the time and when, even then, fights aren't to the death. Meanwhile 5e has stated it expects you to get in like 8 fights a day, all of which could end in your death if you aren't good at fighting, and yet then turns around and coos about how D&D isn't all about fighting.
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Dec 9, 2015 22:43
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I don't think I've ever run more than three fights of consequence in a session.
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Dec 9, 2015 23:20
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The only limit is your imagination! You can be whatever you want! As long as it is good at murder.
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Dec 9, 2015 23:34
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Gort posted:I don't think I've ever run more than three fights of consequence in a session. I'm not sure you can have eight fun combats in a session without it taking an entire weekend.
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Dec 9, 2015 23:49
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cheetah7071 posted:It serves the same purpose as the loot tables containing gemstones and art pieces.
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Dec 10, 2015 00:25
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Kibner posted:I'm not sure you can have eight fun combats in a session without it taking an entire weekend. Play on Heaven or Hell mode. Really speeds up the game.
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Dec 10, 2015 00:48
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GrizzlyCow posted:Play on Heaven or Hell mode. Really speeds up the game. Polearm Master instantly becomes the best early-game feat in the game, granting both an extra attack as well as the ability to reaction-kill anything that moves into your reach. Alternatively, because in DnD ranged weapons aren't just peashooters for extending a combo, the entire party uses all longbows all the time.
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Dec 10, 2015 00:55
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Gort posted:I don't think I've ever run more than three fights of consequence in a session. Good thing a 5e day can run across multiple sessions then!
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Dec 10, 2015 01:05
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Inter-party balance in the current game I'm in is mostly only preserved because the bard player only makes it to half the sessions and I've accused the cleric of not actually casting any useful impactful spells. Semi-actual session quote: Me: "You know, I seem to remember that when we were doing the playtest, our cleric was, like, clearing rooms with laser beams." Cleric: "Yeah... yeah that's a domain thing, I don't actually have that." "What do you have?" "Once per short rest I can attack again as a bonus action." "You never use that either, though." "Yeah, I rolled badly for my level 2 and 3 health instead of taking the average, so... I'm not in melee much." bewilderment fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Dec 10, 2015 |
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Dec 10, 2015 01:35
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bewilderment posted:Inter-party balance in the current game I'm in is mostly only preserved because the bard player only makes it to half the sessions and I've accused the cleric of not actually casting any useful impactful spells. Because picking that domain and then choosing to roll your HP is clearly a good idea.
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Dec 10, 2015 01:40
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Do any of you have an interactive character sheet program you'd recommend so that our bunch of noobs (which is all of us including the DM) don't have to waste on average half the entire session cracking books to remind themselves what spells do and stuff?
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Dec 10, 2015 02:33
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Stanko-Prussian posted:Do any of you have an interactive character sheet program you'd recommend so that our bunch of noobs (which is all of us including the DM) don't have to waste on average half the entire session cracking books to remind themselves what spells do and stuff? So to take a page out of common advice for 4e's book, maybe make index cards with the spells written down on them.
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Dec 10, 2015 02:37
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Stanko-Prussian posted:Do any of you have an interactive character sheet program you'd recommend so that our bunch of noobs (which is all of us including the DM) don't have to waste on average half the entire session cracking books to remind themselves what spells do and stuff? A) no such thing exists, currently b) this is not the edition for you
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Dec 10, 2015 02:37
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Stanko-Prussian posted:Do any of you have an interactive character sheet program you'd recommend so that our bunch of noobs (which is all of us including the DM) don't have to waste on average half the entire session cracking books to remind themselves what spells do and stuff? Print out nice spell cards here: http://beta.hardcodex.ru/ Unfortunately there isn't anything similar I know of for class abilities but just the spell cards should be enough to cut down on book flipping quite a bit.
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Dec 10, 2015 02:45
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If it's just spells, there are a handful of good apps on android that have the entire spell catalogue that you can filter by name type etc. Just search dnd 5e and pick the nicest looking one that's free on the playstore
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Dec 10, 2015 02:56
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Gort posted:I don't think I've ever run more than three fights of consequence in a session. That's intentional. Remember, one of the complaints about 4e was that combat was too detailed, so you couldn't just throw a handful of kobolds at the players and call it a day. As such, 5e is back to assuming you'll have tons of trash fights that don't serve a purpose beyond hypothetically draining party resources.
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Dec 10, 2015 04:04
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It would be nice in 4E if the prospect of combat didn't approach "minimum two hours to resolve this," especially as you leveled past Heroic. It is not a perfect system, and the main problem it has is that combat is too slow. Planning as a DM in 4E is super easy not only because they give you a bunch of tools to do it right, but because you know that two encounters will eat up most of the session. From what I hear 5E is actually not better in this regard later on. As ever the game is balanced around how it plays at 1-7ish and everything past that is theoretical.
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Dec 10, 2015 04:19
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Designing around verisimilitude is a pain. Flying, reading minds, and location spells are super cool utility features, but trying to think up features for martial characters who are decidedly not magic in the setting is a pain. I'm working on a homebrew gladiator class for an upcoming campaign, and the only utility features not directly related to combat I could think of are reduced fall damage, increased jump distance, and the ability to know a creature's stats. What is The Fighting Man™ good at when they aren't fighting?OneThousandMonkeys posted:From what I hear 5E is actually not better in this regard later on. As ever the game is balanced around how it plays at 1-7ish and everything past that is theoretical. The problem with 5e in regards to table time is lazy scaling. When the fighters level up, they get more attacks. When the rogues level up, they get more dice. If the wizard casts scorching ray as a 9th level spell, his turn is going to take five minutes, and he's going to need to borrow everybody's dice. More time is spent in 5e resolving attacks and spells than actually making decisions, which is where the focus should be. Vanguard Warden fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Dec 10, 2015 |
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Dec 10, 2015 04:22
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Vanguard Warden posted:Designing around verisimilitude is a pain. Flying, reading minds, and location spells are super cool utility features, but trying to think up features for martial characters who are decidedly not magic in the setting is a pain. I'm working on a homebrew gladiator class for an upcoming campaign, and the only utility features not directly related to combat I could think of are reduced fall damage, increased jump distance, and the ability to know a creature's stats. What is The Fighting Man™ good at when they aren't fighting? A feature I toyed with when I did Muh First Babby Homebrew was "x times per short rest, you can replace the result of a physical ability check with a 20". That is, in the same way that a wizard can say "I levitate up over the wall, because I'm Just That Magical", this class could say "I easily scale the wall, because I'm Just That Good".
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Dec 10, 2015 04:24
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:It would be nice in 4E if the prospect of combat didn't approach "minimum two hours to resolve this," especially as you leveled past Heroic. It is not a perfect system, and the main problem it has is that combat is too slow. Planning as a DM in 4E is super easy not only because they give you a bunch of tools to do it right, but because you know that two encounters will eat up most of the session. A game I was in at ~15th level in 4e got converted over to 5e when the new edition dropped, and we started at like level 10 or something. It's... horrible. I think if you took 4e and excised all the feats and used 5e-style math, that would be awesome. And maybe give each class like 2-3 Roles they could spec into (Leader being particularly easy to slap onto most classes)
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Dec 10, 2015 04:25
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P.d0t posted:I think if you took 4e and excised all the feats and used 5e-style math, that would be awesome. And maybe give each class like 2-3 Roles they could spec into (Leader being particularly easy to slap onto most classes) So... Strike? The game you want is Strike? http://http://www.strikerpg.com/ http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3656713&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1
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Dec 10, 2015 04:31
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P.d0t posted:I think if you took 4e and excised all the feats and used 5e-style math, that would be awesome. And maybe give each class like 2-3 Roles they could spec into (Leader being particularly easy to slap onto most classes) We already have the DTAS rules, and then we also have the abortive Class Compendium guides for locked-in power selections without being Essentials classes. I think this could be doable!
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Dec 10, 2015 04:32
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bewilderment posted:So... Strike? The game you want is Strike? Nope! I've actually been following Strike.
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Dec 10, 2015 04:34
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Stanko-Prussian posted:Do any of you have an interactive character sheet program you'd recommend so that our bunch of noobs (which is all of us including the DM) don't have to waste on average half the entire session cracking books to remind themselves what spells do and stuff? If you want to print them out, I'd recommend the character sheet and spell sheet combo here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/rpgdownloads.php?do=download&downloadid=1180 Android Character Sheet App: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.wgkammerer.testgui.basiccharactersheet.app Spell Book: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.spellsdd5 iOS App: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/fight-club-5th-edition/id901057473?mt=8 You'll need to join the dropbox folder that has the importable XML files for it though, you can sign up for it here: http://www.tinyurl.com/DnDAppFiles
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Dec 10, 2015 05:23
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mastershakeman posted:Well I've definitely had to track food on multiple characters and multiple campaigns, so being the one guy in the party who doesn't need to could be neat. Same with age coming up here and there but that's definitely less of a thing. Of course that doesn't even touch on the rping due to it If you're in a game where tracking food or age matters then to me the last thing i want is to ignore that part of the game. In my opinion that's literally anti-fun.
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Dec 10, 2015 08:05
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Vanguard Warden posted:Designing around verisimilitude is a pain. Flying, reading minds, and location spells are super cool utility features, but trying to think up features for martial characters who are decidedly not magic in the setting is a pain. I'm working on a homebrew gladiator class for an upcoming campaign, and the only utility features not directly related to combat I could think of are reduced fall damage, increased jump distance, and the ability to know a creature's stats. What is The Fighting Man™ good at when they aren't fighting?
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Dec 10, 2015 08:16
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Remember kids, 5e can be played gridless, that's why movement speed and spell shapes are all measured in 5ft increments 
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Dec 10, 2015 08:19
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Vanguard Warden posted:Designing around verisimilitude is a pain. Flying, reading minds, and location spells are super cool utility features, but trying to think up features for martial characters who are decidedly not magic in the setting is a pain. I'm working on a homebrew gladiator class for an upcoming campaign, and the only utility features not directly related to combat I could think of are reduced fall damage, increased jump distance, and the ability to know a creature's stats. What is The Fighting Man™ good at when they aren't fighting? For a gladiator? An easy one is the ability to near instantly draw a crowd, obtain money favors and gifts from a patron, strike fear into the hearts of lesser men with just a look, tear apart physical structures with their bare hands, hell give them action points they can use to just Auto succeed at something that would require one or more ability, skill checks or saving throws., when it counts the fighting man always comes through
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Dec 10, 2015 11:22
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Elfgames posted:If you're in a game where tracking food or age matters then to me the last thing i want is to ignore that part of the game. In my opinion that's literally anti-fun. Yeah I play a much different game. We track spell components, arrows/other projectiles, have wizards lose their spells if their book gets burned/soaked in water, enforce the onerous memorization time, and also have nonstop time pleasure and attacks while resting so as to keep party from regaining spells or even hit points. On top of that the players can get critically injured and do quite often, draining more party resources. It's a lot different than 5th edition.
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Dec 10, 2015 14:16
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mastershakeman posted:Yeah I play a much different game. We track spell components, arrows/other projectiles, have wizards lose their spells if their book gets burned/soaked in water, enforce the onerous memorization time, and also have nonstop time pleasure and attacks while resting so as to keep party from regaining spells or even hit points. On top of that the players can get critically injured and do quite often, draining more party resources. It's a lot different than 5th edition. If you critically injure your players you are definitely in a very different game than I am.
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Dec 10, 2015 16:40
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