|
Average Bear posted:The "Christian" part of that party is vestigial. Most Christians aren't shooting up abortion clinics. As opposed to most Muslims, which
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 16:03 |
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:so what widespread concepts do you find troubling Gender inequality and segregation, anti-LGBT attitudes, and rather dim views toward religious pluralism all spring to mind. These are not exclusive to Islam nor are they shared by all Muslims but there's enough of a correlation that I feel some criticism is fair. Again, this is not a reason to assume all Muslims share these beliefs, but they are supported in the Quran and/or Hadith so I don't think it's fair to say they have nothing to do with Islam. Edit: and Judaism and Christianity both deserve these very same criticisms, and I've been as vocal as I can be about that as well! It's poo poo no matter whence it comes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:01
|
|
|
computer parts posted:As opposed to most Muslims, which Live under oppressive cultural standards enforced by the religious elite.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:03
|
|
|
My argument isn't against Muslims, you realized that right? I'm talking about Islam as a political force.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:04
|
|
|
PT6A posted:Gender inequality and segregation, anti-LGBT attitudes, and rather dim views toward religious pluralism all spring to mind. These are not exclusive to Islam nor are they shared by all Muslims but there's enough of a correlation that I feel some criticism is fair. Again, this is not a reason to assume all Muslims share these beliefs, but they are supported in the Quran and/or Hadith so I don't think it's fair to say they have nothing to do with Islam. so your criticisms of islam are things that aren't specific to or mandated by islam
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:05
|
|
|
Average Bear posted:Live under oppressive cultural standards enforced by the religious elite. you do realize that most muslims don't live in saudi arabia or territory controlled by ISIS, right? because i'm not sure that you know this fact
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:06
|
|
|
An Enormous Boner posted:I think trying to say who is and isn't a "real" member of a religious group is a losing exercise, and it only gets more and more absurd as you approach denying or at least minimizing the religious conviction of someone who literally blows themselves and others up over it. Panzeh posted:The bad things about islam are pretty much the same bad things in christianity and judaism. But if Islam is man-made, then it's whatever the practitioners make it out to be and that's going to vary quite a bit! Which is why arguments about whether Islam is a "religion of peace" or not, or whether some practitioners are "more or less Islamic" are so inane.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:06
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:you do realize that most muslims don't live in saudi arabia or territory controlled by ISIS, right? Yes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:07
|
|
|
Average Bear posted:Live under oppressive cultural standards enforced by the religious elite. Gonna take a guess and say most Muslims don't support ISIS.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:09
|
|
|
computer parts posted:Gonna take a guess and say most Muslims don't support ISIS. Agreed. Most Saudi Arabians probably aren't too happy about their government either.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:10
|
|
|
Average Bear posted:Agreed. Most Saudi Arabians probably aren't too happy about their government either. Yeah, most Germans probably aren't either.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:10
|
|
|
Almost as though the people enforcing their terrible religious convictions on others are the people I'm criticizing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:11
|
|
|
Average Bear posted:Almost as though the people enforcing their terrible religious convictions on others are the people I'm criticizing. Then why did you say "Most Christians aren't shooting up abortion clinics"? I'll even remind you of the conversation: quote:You: Religious conservatism is a minority in the west.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:13
|
|
|
I'm not even going to bother anymore. No one is arguing is good faith, just trying to paint me as Donald trump or something.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:14
|
|
|
computer parts posted:Then why did you say "Most Christians aren't shooting up abortion clinics"? I'll even remind you of the conversation: I don't get what you don't understand. People shooting abortion clinics are the minority.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:15
|
|
|
An Enormous Boner posted:I think trying to say who is and isn't a "real" member of a religious group is a losing exercise, and it only gets more and more absurd as you approach denying or at least minimizing the religious conviction of someone who literally blows themselves and others up over it. Well I mean in that example I can say that the book specifically forbids suicide in the 4th chapter. But I agree with you. It's religion and the books are all open to interpretation. It's galling because we're held to the standard of "explaining ourselves," but if we do we just get attacked by their interpretation. And they also expect me to be a religious scholar, which I'm not nor I care to be since I have way other goals and dreams and poo poo, and honestly I'm really disenchanted with religion in general. But it doesn't matter since my skin is brown and my name is arabic, so encounters in public feel alot more tense I guess. polish sausage fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Dec 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:15
|
|
|
Average Bear posted:I don't get what you don't understand. People shooting abortion clinics are the minority. And under that same standard, so is religious fundamentalism in the Muslim world. I'll again remind you of your post: Average Bear posted:Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Religious conservatism is a minority in the west. It's a parasite I'd like to be rid of. In the shittier parts of the Middle East, it's a very strong political force, and the people living there suffer for it. Opposing abortion (including to the point of harassment and violence) is a very strong political force in the United States.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:17
|
|
|
gay marriage is extremely controversial across the islamic world, unlike in the united states or russia
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:18
|
|
|
Average Bear posted:Almost as though the people enforcing their terrible religious convictions on others are the people I'm criticizing. The Saudi monarchy, for example, uses Islam as a means to justify its political authority. That's a good start for a concrete criticism of a specific set of practices. Like, how does Saudi Arabia use Islam? Why? What is the nature of those practices? One aspect of it, is that the Saudis claim their interpretation is the only one... See what I'm doing? BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Dec 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:18
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:gay marriage is extremely controversial across the islamic world, unlike in the united states or russia Do you exist in reality? Same-sex marriage is legal in the United States and supported by a large majority of the population. You can still be put to death for homosexual activity in 7 Muslim-majority countries, and it's illegal in most of them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:25
|
|
|
Now Islam, as a set of wildly diverse beliefs, does make certain basic claims about the universe. Such as, there is a God. That's a pretty fundamental claim -- we can all agree that Islam in general claims this is true, right? Now, I think that's wrong, so in that sense I'm criticizing Islam.An Enormous Boner posted:Do you exist in reality? Same-sex marriage is legal in the United States and supported by a large majority of the population. You can still be put to death for homosexual activity in 7 Muslim-majority countries, and it's illegal in most of them. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Dec 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:25
|
|
|
An Enormous Boner posted:Do you exist in reality? Same-sex marriage is legal in the United States and supported by a large majority of the population. You can still be put to death for homosexual activity in 7 Muslim-majority countries, and it's illegal in most of them. Like Russia, for example.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:28
|
|
|
An Enormous Boner posted:Do you exist in reality? Same-sex marriage is legal in the United States and supported by a large majority of the population. You can still be put to death for homosexual activity in 7 Muslim-majority countries, and it's illegal in most of them. And even then there are still people like this: http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/06/29/american-gay-imam-nowhere-in-the-quran-does-it-say-punish-homosexuals/
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:28
|
|
|
Average Bear posted:The "Christian" part of that party is vestigial. Most Christians aren't shooting up abortion clinics.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:29
|
|
|
An Enormous Boner posted:Do you exist in reality? Same-sex marriage is legal in the United States and supported by a large majority of the population. You can still be put to death for homosexual activity in 7 Muslim-majority countries, and it's illegal in most of them. if you'll check your CIA fact book, nations like jamaica, russia, india, ukraine, and ethopia are not majority muslim. try again, slugger
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:30
|
|
|
polish sausage posted:And even then there are still people like this: http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/06/29/american-gay-imam-nowhere-in-the-quran-does-it-say-punish-homosexuals/ That's nice, but the content of the article doesn't exactly inspire hope.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:32
|
|
|
Omi-Polari posted:But how do you account for variables like: homosexuality is very illegal in India and Christian sub-Saharan Africa, the authorities tolerate extra-judicial mob killings of gays, etc. In the world's most populous Muslim majority country, homosexuality is legal. I don't. I was reacting to Thug Drink's comparison between the US, Russia, and the Muslim world. If you're gay, you probably want to be in the United States, where the controversy is lukewarm and functionally unimportant, relatively speaking. I am having a hard time understanding why this is an issue, but I will keep trying to figure it out.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:35
|
|
|
An Enormous Boner posted:That's nice, but the content of the article doesn't exactly inspire hope. I'm not saying It should. I'm just saying the religion has alot of interpretations, and while alot of middle eastern countries don't love us, They certainly sure are spending alot of time fighting each other ala sunnis vs shiaas, iran vs saudi arabia, turkey vs the kurds. Islam isn't some unified thing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:35
|
|
|
An Enormous Boner posted:I don't. I was reacting to Thug Drink's comparison between the US, Russia, and the Muslim world. If you're gay, you probably want to be in the United States, where the controversy is lukewarm and functionally unimportant, relatively speaking. I am having a hard time understanding why this is an issue, but I will keep trying to figure it out.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:37
|
|
|
An Enormous Boner posted:I don't. I was reacting to Thug Drink's comparison between the US, Russia, and the Muslim world. If you're gay, you probably want to be in the United States, where the controversy is lukewarm and functionally unimportant, relatively speaking. I am having a hard time understanding why this is an issue, but I will keep trying to figure it out. I think the issue is you failing to address Russia, even when you literally mention it in your post.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:37
|
|
|
Tendai posted:Most Muslims aren't going on shooting rampages either. What's your point?
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:37
|
|
|
computer parts posted:I think the issue is you failing to address Russia, even when you literally mention it in your post. I hosed up.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:38
|
|
|
computer parts posted:I think the issue is you failing to address Russia, even when you literally mention it in your post. Russia has a powerful religious authority supported by the government. It's backwards in a medieval sense, like most of the Middle East.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 02:40
|
|
|
Here's a statement: Saudi Arabia spends about the same amount of money per year proselytizing an illiberal, authoritarian, intolerant and ultraconservative version of Islam globally as the Soviet Union did on the KGB's foreign espionage and propaganda measures during the height of the Cold War. This includes funding (and controlling) mosques, determining imams to lead the mosques, and what they preach and the literature they distribute, among many other things. For the Saudi leadership, this undermines rival interpretations of Islam and potential challengers to the king's status as the custodian of the two holy mosques. Saudi Arabia outmaneuvers, outspends and outorganizes liberal, progressive Islamic organizations and congregations and actively seeks to discredit them worldwide -- point being to defend and extend Saudi political authority and influence. And prominent leadership among Muslim communities in America and Europe either do not recognize this as a problem or are actively complicit in it, all while they denounce the extremism represented by the Islamic State while ignoring its wellspring. -- That's about as critical and right-wing as I get. But see: nowhere did I single out "Islam" as being the problem, recognizing that there are political actors at work instead. And the writers who are most strident on this point, that I've read, are Muslims because they know it's a threat to them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 03:14
|
|
|
It's just an example and I used it because I think it's (a) true and (b) the way atheists (I'm assuming most critics of Islam here are atheists) should formulate their arguments. Because it really doesn't have that much to do with "Islam" per se or "Muslims" in some general sense. If you believe people created religion for their own purposes, rather than the other way around, and you'd be a strange atheist if you believed the latter, then you should criticize human actions and human actors. If "Islam" makes certain claims about the nature of the universe, then criticize it on those terms, as in "Islam's claims to be divinely inspired are false." But too often we're asked to treat Islam as some kind of esoteric "force" that makes grown men chop off heads and take the car keys away from their wives. It's sloppy thinking. No, Saudi Arabia is an actual thing -- a state -- which has money. Which influences other people. It'd be like blaming "Catholicism" for child abuse, when the Vatican -- which is a thing -- protected priests who raped children. These are actual crimes, with real perpetrators and victims with a clear line of responsibility. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Dec 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 03:27
|
|
|
OK but I just want to hate the guy at the kebab shop because he is different from me and I'm a fat insecure white guy in the lower middle class. How am I supposed to derive any sense of superiority by simply belonging to the correct group of people, if I can't blame bad things on the intrinsic character of another group of people? I just need some reason to be better than someone else without actually doing work or amounting to anything ok?
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 05:02
|
|
|
Morbus posted:OK but I just want to hate the guy at the kebab shop because he is different from me and I'm a fat insecure white guy in the lower middle class. How am I supposed to derive any sense of superiority by simply belonging to the correct group of people, if I can't blame bad things on the intrinsic character of another group of people? I just need some reason to be better than someone else without actually doing work or amounting to anything ok? This sort of thing makes right-wing propaganda about sneering liberal academics effective. Most people who are afraid of Muslims are earnestly afraid, not just stupid bigots. Though we certainly have a shitload of those too. You can thank 30-40 years of negative news coverage on Islamic terrorism (the vast majority of which against other Muslims) and 14 years of acute screaming from the Republican party and propaganda wing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 05:11
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:so your criticisms of islam are things that aren't specific to or mandated by islam That's ridiculous. It's no less valid to criticize Islamic stances on those things than it is to criticize Christian teachings on the same thing. Luckily, most followers of both faiths are moving away from the position on those issues that their respective leadership have encouraged historically speaking.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 05:19
|
|
|
If your argument is that "Islam is bad for LGBT" then you can find lots of examples from other religions that are not much different. I think that's Thug Drink's point. He's right. But I'd like to see the criticisms go further and be more specific. And we do this all the time with influential people on the Christian Right. Ted Cruz is a giant douchebag or Evangelical churches promote intolerance and discrimination. That's specific. You'll find atheist criticism of Christianity that gets pretty militant and lumps in all Christianity with Dominionism, but even then you'll find a lot of atheists who say to cool it. Now, there are also a lot of Islamic clerics who are seriously major assholes, charlatans and demagogues. And these are not marginal people who no one listens to. Some of them have a platform provided by the House of Saud, which is the wealthiest and most privileged group of people on the planet, and they spend money spreading those assholes' views into the West. This has had a profound and toxic effect on the practice of Islam among many Muslims in the West. But most people in the West don't speak Arabic and don't know these people, and the main sources if you only speak English are Islamophobic blogs which have their own Christian Right agenda. And if you want to take this problem on, you risk playing into that agenda, or being manipulated by it. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Dec 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 06:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 16:03 |
|
|
Omi-Polari posted:If your argument is that "Islam is bad for LGBT" then you can find lots of examples from other religions that are not much different. I think that's Thug Drink's point. He's right. But I'd like to see the criticisms go further and be more specific. And we do this all the time with influential people on the Christian Right. Ted Cruz is a giant rear end in a top hat or Evangelical churches promote intolerance and discrimination. You'll find atheist criticism of Christianity that gets pretty militant, but even then you'll find a lot of atheists who say to cool it. Of course other religions are equally bad. Sometimes worse! That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't criticise those attitudes no matter where they come from. I think we can criticise those particular elements of the Islamic community while still accepting Muslims in our society, welcoming refugees, and treating Muslims no different from anyone else. God only knows why Hasidic communities get a pass for the odious nonsense they do, but apparently holding lovely, rear end-backwards beliefs is not a deal-breaker...
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2015 06:41
|
|