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NecroMonster posted:A level 1 poison gem comes out to a 12.5% more multiplier to physical+chaos dps without any other chaos damage%, damage over time%, or poison damage% modifiers. This increases by .5% per level of the poison gem. Wait I don't think this is actually even right. Poison does 10% of phys as chaos per second for 2 seconds. So it's basically adding 20% of phys damage as chaos in the same way added fire or Hatred would, just over time. The only question is how the increased poison damage on it work, if it's multiplicative on the base damage since I have no other sources of scaling for the poison, or if +120% only works out to like 30% overall increase. I just kind of hate that so many ways to scale phys are extra damage of some other element, and they don't interact well with each other.
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Dec 14, 2015 21:38
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The more I use essence drain the more I'm thinking about throwing GMP on it instead of slower proj. The multiplicative effects of void manipulation, rapid decay and controlled destruction adds so much damage that another "more" modifier is a lot less attractive than an additional 4 points where the essence effect can spread from. Especially considering that slow proj makes it even more unwieldy to use than usual. I need a leveled up GMP and a 5 link to really give it a shot but man gently caress slower proj.
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Dec 14, 2015 21:43
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So, I had this http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Timeclasp drop today, and, uh, I'm failing to see the usefulness of it. Is it supposed to be a strictly PvP ring or something?
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Dec 14, 2015 21:43
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It was added in a patch with like 20 other low level unique rings/amulets, all equally garbage. They were meant for LLD PVP but no one with good LLD gear would actually think of using them.
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Dec 14, 2015 21:50
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Ultima66 posted:Wait I don't think this is actually even right. Poison does 10% of phys as chaos per second for 2 seconds. So it's basically adding 20% of phys damage as chaos in the same way added fire or Hatred would, just over time. The only question is how the increased poison damage on it work, if it's multiplicative on the base damage since I have no other sources of scaling for the poison, or if +120% only works out to like 30% overall increase. I just kind of hate that so many ways to scale phys are extra damage of some other element, and they don't interact well with each other. dps is damage per second. so it does 10% of phys+chaos as chaos per second (for two seconds) aka 10% more dps, the gem also comes with a 25% increase to poison damage done at first level. So it does 10 x 1.25 = 12.5% of phys+chaos damage as chaos per second, aka 12.5% more dps. This scales up with level, reaching 22% with a level 20 gem. While I don't know exactly how all of the increases function on the added poison damage, the most conservative guess is that they are all added together (chaos damage% + damage over time% + poison damage%) and then multiplied against the "base" poison damage. This would mean that, although the gem is weak by itself, with proper passive support it can end up being a 40% or more "more" damage modifier to physical+chaos dps. My own theoretical build ends up getting more than 60% more dps out of that single support gem. And oh yeah, it's worth even more dps when you can stack it. NecroMonster fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Dec 14, 2015 |
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Dec 14, 2015 21:53
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Found my first ever unique strongbox today and got a consuming dark dagger out of it. I have no idea what I should do with it.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:03
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NecroMonster posted:dps is damage per second. so it does 10% of phys+chaos as chaos per second (for two seconds) aka 10% more dps, the gem also comes with a 25% increase to poison damage done at first level. So it does 10 x 1.25 = 12.5% of phys+chaos damage as chaos per second, aka 12.5% more dps. This scales up with level, reaching 22% with a level 20 gem. This is not how you calculate the damage because the poison damage stacks. You just have to take the total damage a single attack would do and average it out over number of attacks per second. If your attack always does 100 damage and you always attack once per second, each attack will do 100 phys + 10 chaos per second over 2 seconds. This means each attack now does 120 damage before any poison modifiers. This means a 20% damage increase. Also every second you're attacking after the first, the monster is being affected by the past two poisons, meaning it's actually taking 120 damage per second, so the way you're trying to calculate it completely ignores what happens if you put more than one poison on an enemy in the first place. The only way you get 12.5% increase is if you assume poison only refreshes the previous duration and never stacks.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:04
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doing purposefully simplified worst case math as an example of how the gem scales with passive support and some goon jumps down my throat to tell me that i haven't in fact done a proper full mathematical simulation of exactly what is happening
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Dec 14, 2015 22:10
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Can't the poison effect stack, so it it kind of depends on a number of things? I got the impression it synergized really well with things like Bladefall, that do a series of high damage hits (larger values on the poison per stack and multiple stacks per cast). I think pbk also said it doesn't appear to have a stack cap, or at least it's pretty large if it does, so it might work well with things like Blade Vortex. e: yes I realize that's what you two are arguing about but I dunno just talking here
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Dec 14, 2015 22:22
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Jaknuts posted:Regarding your IIR in ED. How can you be sure that the tick that kills the mob is essence drain and not contagion? I get a lot more rares than I would ordinarily. My contagion ticks for a tiny fraction of the ED damage, like 1/20th or less.  And yeah, I'm leveling an empower but its only like 7% qual plus 4% from a haku 1her, so it's taking forever.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:26
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Flesh Forge posted:Can't the poison effect stack, so it it kind of depends on a number of things? I got the impression it synergized really well with things like Bladefall, that do a series of high damage hits (larger values on the poison per stack and multiple stacks per cast). I think pbk also said it doesn't appear to have a stack cap, or at least it's pretty large if it does, so it might work well with things like Blade Vortex. Number of hits, damage per hit, speed of hits, none of that makes a difference for poison, it's just a % damage mod that takes 2 seconds to get full value. It's a very strong %more modifier for pure phys/chaos builds, but takes 2 seconds to get full damage from which means it doesn't help your actual clear speed a ton. Extremely good on hard rares and bosses though!
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Dec 14, 2015 22:34
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Ultima66 posted:This is not how you calculate the damage because the poison damage stacks. You just have to take the total damage a single attack would do and average it out over number of attacks per second. You're talking about damage per hit. The other guy is talking about DPS. Once you take into account he was talking about DPS, the fact that poison stacks doesn't matter. Old style poison where it got rewritten needed more complicated math.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:37
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Also that's not even the concern about whether the gem is worth using or not. Taken at face value, the gem gives 25% of physical damage added as chaos to your attacks, scaling up to 44% at lvl 20. This is good for a support, especially given that chaos isn't easily resisted, and actually is IDENTICAL to what Added Fire Damage adds. No matter how you want to go through calculating DPS with various damage over time, you're just adding the total amount of the poison damage to the original damage per hit once you average it out. Here's where my concern comes in. Suppose your skill tree has +300% physical damage on it, and no chaos or poison damage at all on it, so my damage is 400% of my base physical damage. For ease of calculation, let's say my base damage is 100 physical. I attack a monster and deal 400 damage to it, using a poison gem. Before the poison gem modifier is calculated, the game is giving a poison DoT with a physical base damage of 400, meaning 40 per second. This is fairly straightforward and I think it's very obvious if I attack a monster once for 400 physical, I'd be doing 40 chaos per second to it from poison. Say the poison gem is lvl 16, meaning +100% "increased damage with poison." My concern is how this increased damage with poison interacts with the +300% increased physical damage I already have on the tree. Will it ignore it completely, saying "you created an instance of poison damage that does 40 damage per second, add 100% to it to get 80 damage per second" or will it say "you created an instance of poison with +300% increased damage, we add +100% to that to get 400% increased damage on your base 100 damage, so you get a poison based on you having done 500 damage and get 50 damage a second." There's a huge difference between the two. The former would add 160 chaos damage to a 400 damage hit, giving +40% overall damage increase the latter gives 100 chaos damage, giving only a +25% damage increase. The reason this is unclear to me is because if you're getting +100% = double poison damage, that is effectively stacking multiplicatively with your phys damage modifiers, and in this game generally speaking everything that says "increased damage" only ever stacks additively. It's a big concern because it looks like my tree will end up with something around +330% increased damage on Spectral Throw before any jewels. If the +120% poison damage from the Poison gem gives a poison damage based on additively increasing the base phys damage by 120%, it's not worth using at all. Also how does it interact with Frenzy charges? Does the base chaos damage over time also get multiplied by the Frenzy charge bonus on top of them multiplying the base damage that creates the poison effect? I would assume so based on how everything else works in the game but really have no idea.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:46
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Cinara posted:Number of hits, damage per hit, speed of hits, none of that makes a difference for poison, it's just a % damage mod that takes 2 seconds to get full value. It's a very strong %more modifier for pure phys/chaos builds, but takes 2 seconds to get full damage from which means it doesn't help your actual clear speed a ton. Extremely good on hard rares and bosses though! I see, thanks. e: actually are there passives that make the duration longer, e.g. any of the regular old duration nodes or maybe something specific to poison?
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Dec 14, 2015 22:48
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Flesh Forge posted:I see, thanks. I have no clue actually. There are no poison duration passives, and I've yet to pick up any increased duration passives to test the duration with.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:58
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Jester Mcgee posted:I want to do an SRS build, but I've never done one before, and I am having trouble figuring out which ones on the official forums are good. Can someone point me in the right direction? I am running one on my guy. I can get 50 guys out(without vaal haste running) and it's working out well so far with the gear I have. Look up tonic317 and the character name is PlayingOnMyTablet if you want to see my current spec.
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Dec 14, 2015 23:02
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I don't believe any of the increased duration effects will work on it as it's not a skill. It's a support gem and everything says increased skill duration. Viper Strike is what you use if you want longer duration poison.
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Dec 14, 2015 23:03
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I don't think increased duration passives will increase poison duration either, but I'm picking them up anyway for Blade Vortex so I might as well check if they effect poison duration.
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Dec 14, 2015 23:10
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Pharnakes posted:FWP: I can't keep up with my rare items in ID scrolls. What's the best way to get more? One thing you can do is sell portal scrolls for id scrolls, so keep picking those up.
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Dec 14, 2015 23:12
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Also, if you are just starting out, or starting out in a new league, don't ID every rare you pick up unless it's a base you can use now, or in a level or two at most. Sell them un-IDed for the 7 transmute shards because lots of Transmute orbs are handy as hell to have around.
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Dec 14, 2015 23:16
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I've been watching a few streams, and most are people playing HC and running maps. They leave a poo poo-ton of rares lying on the ground, but pick some up. How do they decide at a glance which ones are worth taking and which aren't?
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Dec 14, 2015 23:22
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You learn. You use an item filter, you pick up rares you need for specific vendor recipes, you pick up rares that are good bases. You pick up smaller inventory size rares (1x3, 1x4, 1x1, 1x2, 2x2).
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Dec 14, 2015 23:24
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I actually did the math. Warning: I'm bad at making Excel not look like garbage.  This is assuming no modifiers on the poison damage from Poison gem or skill tree. How I got each row: 1. Phys hit - Just put in 1000 damage hit every X seconds, based on number of attacks per second 2. Poison stacks - number of nonzero phys hit entries over the previous 2 seconds (8 entries) 3. Poison damage - 25 * number of current stacks of poison (this should be how much poison damage is done over the quarter second duration) 4. Damage this .25s - Sum of phys hit + poison damage entries 5. Total damage/previous second - sum of the last 4 damage this .25s entries After a long period of time, the total damage/previous second always stabilizes to some value. This is the effective DPS that you would be doing. Adding poison without any modifiers always increases your DPS by 20%.
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Dec 14, 2015 23:25
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Bardeh posted:I've been watching a few streams, and most are people playing HC and running maps. They leave a poo poo-ton of rares lying on the ground, but pick some up. How do they decide at a glance which ones are worth taking and which aren't? Neversink filter will green background good bases and you should be using 1 handers that take up 1x3 for your dual weapon chaos recipes. You'll always be waiting on jewelry to complete a recipie so after you have 4 sets of gear you can stop picking up the lovely bases for your unidentified chaos recipie. I'm still picking up most rares I can cause I still want more alts. I imagine when you're in the high 80's and 90's you have enough alts for whatever.
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Dec 14, 2015 23:33
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After trying out Blast Rain yesterday on my Talisman ranger, I want to try and make a build around it and need some help thinking it through. At an abstract level, I'm thinking a Marauder - possibly using Avatar of Fire and making use of the new Lioneye's Fall gems, as well as maybe a Blackgleam quiver and a Chin Sol. Skill-wise I'm not sure of what good links would be for Blast Rain yet - for single target I like the idea of Vaal Burning Arrow + GMP + Trap + Point Blank as a 4L - not sure on what else I could link to that if I got a 5/6L. I'm keen to see what people think about this idea and whether it's viable. Feel free to chime in.
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Dec 15, 2015 00:34
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Speaking of Neversink's filter, it seems to hide Tier 1 white talismans. Is there a better filter that will show them, or should I really not be picking them up?
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Dec 15, 2015 00:36
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I'm using that filter and having no problem with white talismans but maybe I'm just not high enough level yet.
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Dec 15, 2015 00:38
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Mince Pieface posted:Speaking of Neversink's filter, it seems to hide Tier 1 white talismans. Is there a better filter that will show them, or should I really not be picking them up? it only occasionally does this and I can't figure out why, but I also haven't bothered to look at the filter personally yet I think maybe only if it's a significantly lower ilvl than the zone you're in?
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Dec 15, 2015 00:40
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He updated his filter for 2.1 but then it was found to be broken. Has he fixed his 2.1 update?
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Dec 15, 2015 00:47
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He has, it was only two small typos. It was fixed by Saturday.
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Dec 15, 2015 03:18
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Ultima66 posted:Here's where my concern comes in. Suppose your skill tree has +300% physical damage on it, and no chaos or poison damage at all on it, so my damage is 400% of my base physical damage. For ease of calculation, let's say my base damage is 100 physical. I attack a monster and deal 400 damage to it, using a poison gem. Before the poison gem modifier is calculated, the game is giving a poison DoT with a physical base damage of 400, meaning 40 per second. This is fairly straightforward and I think it's very obvious if I attack a monster once for 400 physical, I'd be doing 40 chaos per second to it from poison. Say the poison gem is lvl 16, meaning +100% "increased damage with poison." My concern is how this increased damage with poison interacts with the +300% increased physical damage I already have on the tree. Will it ignore it completely, saying "you created an instance of poison damage that does 40 damage per second, add 100% to it to get 80 damage per second" or will it say "you created an instance of poison with +300% increased damage, we add +100% to that to get 400% increased damage on your base 100 damage, so you get a poison based on you having done 500 damage and get 50 damage a second." There's a huge difference between the two. The former would add 160 chaos damage to a 400 damage hit, giving +40% overall damage increase the latter gives 100 chaos damage, giving only a +25% damage increase. The reason this is unclear to me is because if you're getting +100% = double poison damage, that is effectively stacking multiplicatively with your phys damage modifiers, and in this game generally speaking everything that says "increased damage" only ever stacks additively.  inc:Your first case (80 dps poison DoT) should be correct. This is basically what NecroMonster was saying. Poison is fairly similar to Ignite in functionality, with the difference that Poison stacks (irrelevant for your question). Think of Increased Poison Damage as similar to Increased Burning Damage. The initial hit is calculated with all of its relevant modifiers. The pre-scaling Poison DoT is then 10% of the chaos/physical damage in the initial hit, every second for two seconds. This DoT is scaled by: increased chaos damage, increased poison damage, increased damage over time, increased delivery method damage (projectile, area, ?), increased source damage (minion, trap, mine, totem, etc). The DoT is NOT scaled by attack damage, weapon damage, spell damage, mele damage. If any of those scalars were applied to the initial hit they will be applied again to Poison, i.e. if you link a Poison gem to an ability that causes chaos damage and you have 100% increased chaos damage, the initial hit will be increased by 100%, the DoT will be calculated, and then the DoT will be increased by 100% because it is also chaos damage. An example with sorta real world numbers: 100 base chaos damage delivered by projectile spell linked with Poison support 100% increased chaos damage 200% increased spell damage 100% increased poison damage 50% increased damage over time 50% increased projectile damage base + (chaos% + projectile% + spell%) = initial hit 100 + (100% + 50% + 200%) = 450 chaos damage Initial Poison is 10% of hit every second for two seconds = 45 chaos damage every second for two seconds poison + (chaos% + projectile% + poison damage% + dot damage%) = final dot 45 + (100% + 50% + 100% + 50%) = 180 chaos damage every second for two seconds = total 360 extra chaos damage per hit vvv "Poison duration scales with passives/gear/and support gems (if the poison is applied by a gem or support gem), a Dev just clarified this." per NecroMonster I have no idea how it interacts with Frenzy charges. The wiki links for Damage Over Time, Poison, and Ignite are were all kinda useful when I was trying to sort this out: http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Damage_over_time http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Poison http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Ignite There is some non-zero chance that I am completely wrong and that poison doesn't operate in a similar manner to existing damage over time effects (in which case, oops, sorry), but it's pretty likely it does. Prel fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Dec 15, 2015 |
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Dec 15, 2015 04:26
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Poison duration scales with passives/gear/and support gems (if the poison is applied by a gem or support gem), a Dev just clarified this. I was working on actual math for calculating the final possible dps that poison can get you based on all relevant variables but ugg I hate math and I keep getting distracted. The basic answer tho is, holy hell it's a lot. You also don't need to know how much damage any one stack of poison will do over it's duration to calculate dps, just how many concurrent stacks of poison you can have based on that duration. For example, with 11% increased cast speed, 70% more cast speed and 95% increased duration a Blade Vortex character could maintain 34.8 blades which each hit once per second, allowing that character to maintain something like 135.72 concurrent stacks of poison. NecroMonster fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Dec 15, 2015 |
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Dec 15, 2015 04:32
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NecroMonster posted:For example, with 11% increased cast speed, 70% more cast speed and 95% increased duration a Blade Vortex character could maintain 34.8 blades which each hit once per second, allowing that character to maintain something like 135.72 concurrent stacks of poison. Cast on Crit BV should be able to get to 50 blades pretty easily I imagine.
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Dec 15, 2015 04:53
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It's actually kind of a pain in the rear end because BV has a much larger radius than cyclone so once you have any sizable number of blades you aren't going to be able to hit anything to get more blades. It'll chop up bosses good, but using something that does higher individual hit damage is probably a better idea. Anyway, BV + poison is a nasty nasty thing.
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Dec 15, 2015 04:58
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Flesh Forge posted:This is what I do except I don't bother with Vuln - even vs act bosses it's just not that important except maybe in a full team. Spell totem/wither/spell echo/faster casting works for me. I don't think spell echo works with totems? If you're running wither totem in a 4L you'd be better off with Inc AoE or Inc Duration.
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Dec 15, 2015 11:07
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The Real Foogla posted:when I said blasphemy would change the meta I wasn't thinking about stuff like this: Just in case anyone missed it, this was fixed pretty quickly. quote:2.1.0c Hotfix
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Dec 15, 2015 12:56
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Dec 15, 2015 15:24
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Artificial Idiocy posted:I don't think spell echo works with totems? If you're running wither totem in a 4L you'd be better off with Inc AoE or Inc Duration. It appeared to but I'll take a closer look. e: yeah I was seeing the 30% less cast speed mod that as part of spell totem and not realizing that's where it came from Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Dec 15, 2015 |
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Dec 15, 2015 16:23
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Echo doesn't work on totems.
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Dec 15, 2015 16:28
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Echo doesn't work on totems. edit: but it works on posts Hauki fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Dec 15, 2015 |
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Dec 15, 2015 16:31
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