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It is pretty troubling to see Daesh as being an arbiter of mainstream islam though.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:45
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shrike82 posted:It is pretty troubling to see Daesh as being an arbiter of mainstream islam though. Good thing nobody did that, you shitposting star, you. I'm figuring maybe you're trying to make anti-Muslims look like total morons, in which case, well done my good person.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:48
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A tough topic. Islam is pretty bad and horrible and bad for humanity. But so is Christianity and any of the Abrahamic religions (and religion in general). Its really tough to be nuanced on this since its so sensitive. That said, saying all Middle Eastern people are bad is pretty silly and obviously racist. There isn't anything noble about adhering to ancient superstitions and I wish people would stop acting like it was. Its silly for Christians, its silly for Muslims. It feels like people are saying "Its Ok to believe in silly things, just not TOO much, otherwise you're one of the Bad Ones and we have to decry you" even though they both believe in the silly thing.
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Dec 15, 2015 21:58
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It's weird that people here are basically conceding that Islam is bad but then go on to say Christianity is bad so it's all OK.
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Dec 15, 2015 22:02
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shrike82 posted:It's weird that people here are basically conceding that Islam is bad but then go on to say Christianity is bad so it's all OK. If that is what you got from my post then I wasn't clear. Christianity is just as stupid and harmful and everything I said about Islam applies to Christianity as well.
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Dec 15, 2015 22:03
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Omi-Polari posted:Is it prevalent in the Middle East? I thought it was a largely African phenomenon. Well, this is barbarism. Can they stop mutilating people, please?
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Dec 15, 2015 22:05
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Jastiger posted:If that is what you got from my post then I wasn't clear. Christianity is just as stupid and harmful and everything I said about Islam applies to Christianity as well. Our religion is part of our ethnic and cultural heritage. These things are not the product of our religions. Religion only forms the language and justification that bad people use to be bad, it isn't the reason why people are bad. People can use the language of secularism to be bad.I've seen homophobic and racist atheists who justify it with perversions of science. What it comes down to is people with authoritarian personalities being drawn to extremist ideologies. These people may have been raised Muslim but they aren't raised to be wahabists.
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Dec 15, 2015 22:12
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On the other hand, there's no legal framework anywhere in the world that allows Christians who may want to stone people for being gay, to actually stone them for being gay. The same cannot be said of the Islamic world, sadly, even if that's not Islam's "fault."
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Dec 15, 2015 22:15
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Good point 
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Dec 15, 2015 22:17
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The National Post, the Best Post.
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Dec 15, 2015 22:17
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Wait, does stoning not happen? Happy to take that off if it's false.
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Dec 15, 2015 22:18
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There is a Christian legal system that allows for violent physical attacks on homosexuals. Do you not know that Uganda exists? In a concession they made the actual state mandated death penalty into life imprisonment but it does give extra-judicial carte-blanche to treat homosexuals however they wish, which has led to a tenfold increase in violence and many murders.
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Dec 15, 2015 22:22
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Mandy Thompson posted:I take issue with that. Christianity has made a huge difference in my life and I imagine Islam makes a difference in other people's lives It made a difference because the texts of Christianity were changed and Westernized to be more palatable. Every time I hear of some great positive or progressive thing being done by Christians (or Muslims) its in SPITE of scripture not because of it. The words are changed and sanitized to appeal to our Western sensibilities rather than us finding them sensible on their own. The further we move AWAY from religion the better we find ourselves. So I can appreciate you had a good time with it, but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous. As to the rest of your post, you're right, bad people can be bad absolutely with any motivation. But if you get rid of the normalization of faith based laws and norms it becomes WAY harder to act out on it. Look at how quick Christians are to ostracize the Westboro Baptists for example. WBB aren't wrong. They aren't according to the Bible. Everyone else has moved on and marginalizes them for the most part. Yet they can still exist tax free and not be held to a higher standard because they have cover for their faith from the more moderate people. As I said its cool to believe in the Bible just not TOO much, otherwise you're a Bad Dude. Its better to be rid of it all together and turn to other more robust moral and legal frameworks. You likely agree with me in practice but not in rhetoric as is the case with most progressive religious people.
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Dec 15, 2015 22:23
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shrike82 posted:It's weird that people here are basically conceding that Islam is bad but then go on to say Christianity is bad so it's all OK.
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Dec 15, 2015 22:23
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Westboro Baptists have killed zero people.
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Dec 15, 2015 22:24
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suicide bombed zero times
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Dec 15, 2015 22:24
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flown zero planes into buildings
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Dec 15, 2015 22:24
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Obdicut posted:Nobody is saying Islam is flawless, I don't get how you can come to this idea. Obdicut posted:Islam doesn't have any flaws SedanChair posted:But those are different criticisms. Saudi Arabia supports extremist militants throughout the region, but this is not inextricably tied to their domestic policies any more than our foreign policy is tied to acceptance of homosexuality, abortion and divorce. Nonsense. The House of Saud's expansive support for its domestic religious establishment includes spending billions on proselytizing. Sending out Saudi-trained imams is part on attempt to create a religious rationale for their rule, just as the support of groups like the mutaween are.
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Dec 15, 2015 22:27
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If you want to get down to the theology of it, Christians, to be Christians, must fundamentally believe that Jesus Christ created a new covenant. This supersedes the covenant previously attested to in the Old Testament, which includes the levitical law.. This is why Christians can eat pork, shellfish, wear different kinds of fibers in their clothes and don't have to put gay people to death. So the Westboro Baptist Church, by following levitical law, are not actually Christians, since they deny the Covenant created by Christ. HTH.
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Dec 15, 2015 22:30
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The Insect Court posted:Nonsense. The House of Saud's expansive support for its domestic religious establishment includes spending billions on proselytizing. Sending out Saudi-trained imams is part on attempt to create a religious rationale for their rule, just as the support of groups like the mutaween are. I suppose that's fair. Which makes it all the more frustrating that it is inappropriate to comment on their domestic policies at this time.
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Dec 15, 2015 22:31
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Mandy Thompson posted:I take issue with that. Christianity has made a huge difference in my life and I imagine Islam makes a difference in other people's lives Atheists saying mean things on the internet sure is the issue here. The real problem we need to tackle is all these nasty secular organizations that are devoted to destroying reproductive rights, reversing the supreme court's decision on gay marriage, and getting prayer in and evolution out of schools cause these totally exist. I don't particularly care what flavor of make believe makes you feel good but all these lovely Christian organizations and movements are an actual issue and a significant contributor to the Islamophobia this thread is hand wringing about. Evangelicals like evangelical poo poo and evangelical leaders don't want another flavor of regressive garbage inching into their territory. They're also probably racists. Again, there is nothing particularly special about Islam when it's compared to Christianity, they're both garbage but one has taken hold in a historically unstable region where the poo poo parts can shine through.
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Dec 15, 2015 22:39
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Ddraig posted:If you want to get down to the theology of it, Christians, to be Christians, must fundamentally believe that Jesus Christ created a new covenant. This supersedes the covenant previously attested to in the Old Testament, which includes the levitical law.. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17. uh oh.
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Dec 15, 2015 22:54
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Mandy Thompson posted:I take issue with that. Christianity has made a huge difference in my life and I imagine Islam makes a difference in other people's lives I disagree that religion is inherently bad and I think there are many good aspects of it but I don't think this is the best example. There's a good argument to be made that Abrahamic religions are basically responsible for homophobia. Sure there are atheists that are homophobic but in public opinion polling they're usually the most accepting demographic out there. In most ancient societies there was some degree of acceptance of same-sex relationships, harsh anti-gay views like proscribing the death penalty for homosexuality only became widespread with the spread Abrahamic religions, especially Christianity. It would be hard to make a case for Islam being any worse than Judaism or Christianity though from a historical standpoint because looking back at the history of the three religions it's clearly Christianity that's been the strongest force of homophobia. While Islamic societies 1000 years ago weren't exactly accepting of same-sex relationships they were still less hostile than most of Europe during same time period. Clearly the situation is different now and contemporary Islam is more hostile to homosexuality than Christianity or Judaism but it wouldn't make sense looking back at the history of these religions to say that it's something inherent in Islam. MaxxBot fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Dec 15, 2015 |
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Dec 15, 2015 22:55
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Jastiger posted:"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17. In the larger context this means that Jesus has fulfilled the Mosaic Covenant of perfect obedience on fear of "curse" 'Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”' Which is keeping with the blood sacrifice belief inherent in Christianity - that Jesus gave his life to break the old covenant and usher in a new one. I guess the important thing is that there are multiple interpretations of scripture and they don't all necessarily agree, and it's thanks to this that many positions that are seemingly contradictory to faith can be reconciled. This is true of all Abrahamic religions.
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Dec 15, 2015 23:11
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So you have no grounds to condemn Westboro Baptist as not Christian and it all remains garbage. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Dec 15, 2015 23:20
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Jastiger posted:So you have no grounds to condemn Westboro Baptist as not Christian and it all remains garbage. Thanks for clearing that up. If the Westboro Baptist is entirely Baptist, then they believe in sola scriptura, which makes the case that the old covenant being overthrown by the new even stronger seeing as how they reject the reams of canonical law that try to prove the opposite. A hell of a lot of Christians would regard the WBC as not Christian.
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Dec 15, 2015 23:27
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Shoren posted:
Seeing as we are supplying bombs and trucks and guns to the rebels and our stuff has a habit of falling in to the hands of ISIS I am going to say we have a strong obligation to take in most of the Syrian refugees. As does Russia who is backing Assad. We also have a habit of sticking our noses in the middle east, supporting dictators and bombing the poo poo out of it or backing people who do it for us, whether we have a legitimate reason to or not. This is all done in the name of our national interests. We should take on the cost of our own actions.
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Dec 15, 2015 23:44
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Ddraig posted:If the Westboro Baptist is entirely Baptist, then they believe in sola scriptura, which makes the case that the old covenant being overthrown by the new even stronger seeing as how they reject the reams of canonical law that try to prove the opposite. Yes, and just like Muslims, they would be wrong to do so. A Christian is someone who professes the Nicene Creed. A Muslim is someone who recites and believes in the Shahada. Sometimes, when you're a sane member of these religions, unfortunately your co-religionists do very insane, bad things in the name of that religion, that may or may not be justified by their interpretation of that religion and its scriptures. Too bad, so sad; deal with it. You don't get to decide that they are No True Christian/Muslim any more than they get to tell you that you are No True Christian/Muslim for following more liberal practices. EDIT: On the subject of refugees, it's the responsibility of every country in the world which is safe and able to do so to accept refugees, regardless of their religion. It sickens me that, after some of the crimes against humanity we've seen in the past, and those which are ongoing, there's any kind of debate about this. It doesn't matter if we caused the situation, or exacerbated the situation, or did nothing at all. To reject Syrian refugees because we're scared of their religion is the real Islamophobia that we have to be worried about. Some dude on the Internet saying it sure would be nice if the Qu'ran didn't say bad things about gay people doesn't really rate in comparison, IMO. PT6A fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Dec 15, 2015 |
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Dec 15, 2015 23:47
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Jastiger posted:
That is REALLY debatable though this is not an appropriate venue for it.
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Dec 15, 2015 23:51
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Jastiger posted:So you have no grounds to condemn Westboro Baptist as not Christian and it all remains garbage. Thanks for clearing that up. Oh they're totally Christian, just not representative. I define a Christian by self-identification and some belief in an interpretation of the teachings of Christ Jesus. We can't say that they aren't but I can say that piety is no excuse for abhorrent behavior.
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Dec 15, 2015 23:59
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Baloogan posted:Westboro Baptists have killed zero people. That's true. Westboro has not done those thing. Other christian extremists have done things such as bomb the olympics and abortion clinics. They have attacked gay bars and committed hate crimes against gay people. They have performed assasinations and been involved in right wing coups. American Evangelicals have convinced governments in Africa to make being gay a death penalty crime. The have also provided material support to death squads in south america and truly psychotic african warlords. But no, the Westboro Baptists just picket funerals and sue people who fight back
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Dec 16, 2015 00:03
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The Insect Court posted:Nonsense. The House of Saud's expansive support for its domestic religious establishment includes spending billions on proselytizing. Sending out Saudi-trained imams is part on attempt to create a religious rationale for their rule, just as the support of groups like the mutaween are. What did that have to do with what I said? PT6A posted:Yes, and just like Muslims, they would be wrong to do so. A Christian is someone who professes the Nicene Creed. A Muslim is someone who recites and believes in the Shahada. Sometimes, when you're a sane member of these religions, unfortunately your co-religionists do very insane, bad things in the name of that religion, that may or may not be justified by their interpretation of that religion and its scriptures. Too bad, so sad; deal with it. You don't get to decide that they are No True Christian/Muslim any more than they get to tell you that you are No True Christian/Muslim for following more liberal practices. Which is why it's moronic to talk about "Flaws in Islam" or "Flaws in Christianity".
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Dec 16, 2015 00:05
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Mandy Thompson posted:Oh they're totally Christian, just not representative. I define a Christian by self-identification and some belief in an interpretation of the teachings of Christ Jesus. We can't say that they aren't but I can say that piety is no excuse for abhorrent behavior. Right, and I'm just saying that the faith part of it is what's harmful. It indoctrinate people into groups based on false unfalsifiable premises. You say it's cool and good, but that doesn't make it somehow a good thing overall. Some people need to take methamphetamine and steroids to function. That doesn't change the fact that it's a drug that, if we could survive without we would. ....and we'd be better off for it.
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Dec 16, 2015 00:14
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Given that almost the entirety of Western culture and art has been predicated and built on the back of religion I think we probably wouldn't be better off without it. The Renaissance wouldn't have happened, for one thing. I'm not even religious but I couldn't live in a world without William Blake, so thank God for religion.
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Dec 16, 2015 00:19
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Ddraig posted:Given that almost the entirety of Western culture and art has been predicated and built on the back of religion I think we probably wouldn't be better off without it. Religion and history are so deeply tied together I think it's pretty much pointless to discuss what would have happened without it, no one really has any idea.
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Dec 16, 2015 00:22
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MaxxBot posted:Religion and history are so deeply tied together I think it's pretty much pointless to discuss what would have happened without it, no one really has any idea. Religion is also just a part of culture and no different from any other part.
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Dec 16, 2015 00:35
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MaxxBot posted:Religion and history are so deeply tied together I think it's pretty much pointless to discuss what would have happened without it, no one really has any idea. Probably not all intelligence's are build the same way. So maybe we will find some spacefaring civilization where religion was never invented or was never important. It may take millions of years to find one like that, but we may find one in the future. One of the critics to Civilization 1 (the videogame) is to tie religion in the tech tree. That is big political manifesto and a bit insulting, to be honest. Our civilizations have religions because we are a dishonest animals. We can't accept the truth that we don't know why rain or where people go when they die, so we invented the gods. We are crappy like that. Maybe other creatures on other parts of the universe have grown different enough that did not feel the need to tell everyone so many lies. In other words, perhaps we have religions because we suck. I don't think you need religion to invent catapults or archery or farming. I guest until we find other culture we will not know how much traits we have are inherent of smart creatures, and how many are accidental.
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Dec 16, 2015 00:38
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Tei posted:Probably not all intelligence's are build the same way. So maybe we will find some spacefaring civilization where religion was never invented or was never important. No, religion is a lot more than just afterlife. Religion isn't different from other cultural aspects. Stop making it into magic.
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Dec 16, 2015 00:39
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Obdicut posted:No, religion is a lot more than just afterlife. Religion isn't different from other cultural aspects. Stop making it into magic. Yes, its also other things... Religion is also bad science for myopic eyes. If you can't see the mountains in the moons, you theorize that they are perfect spheres. Religion is only one stage on the Information Era, before we invented experimentation has a procedure to filter bullshit from facts.
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Dec 16, 2015 00:42
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Tei posted:Yes, its also other things... Culture is also bad science. There is nothing special about religion in that regard. And they had experimentation in the olden days, you mean the scientific method in full, which is more than just empiricism.
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Dec 16, 2015 00:44
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