|
Bongo Bill posted:Bail could've been that character. He was doing the Lando thing quite a bit when he was hastily assembling a rebellion at the end of the last one. But, alas, he was not. There was really no place in the story of the prequels for a Han Solo. Han Solo is a character who starts out as a selfish loner but then learns to become part of a group and to make personal sacrifices. He isn't in the movies just to make wisecracks and be cool; he's there to be an archetype representing a certain type of character growth. The OT is about rebuilding society. The PT is about the collapse of society. That's why instead of Han Solo, you get Anakin, who goes his own way at first not because he's selfish, but because be believes the rules of society are stopping him from being able to help people as effectively as he would like. Han Solo knows he's an rear end in a top hat and starts out perfectly comfortable with that self-knowledge; society's never done anything for him, so why should he do anything for society? But Anakin starts out with altruism as his ideal, and when he falls short of that ideal, he descends into neurotic despair. They're both characters who have experienced social alienation, but as a result of completely different circumstances and mindsets. Han Solo's alienation is breezy and romanticized, because it's a childish fantasy which both the character and the audience must learn to reject. In contrast, Anakin's alienation is stark and anxiety-inducing; you're supposed to feel the pain and confusion Anakin feels, not come away with the impression that he's enjoying the situation. You can't just say, "Han Solo is popular because he's cool and makes wisecracks, so obviously we need to have a Han Solo." If the story doesn't call for a Han Solo, you shouldn't force it just because it might be marketable. There's no actual reason for there to have been a Han Solo in the prequels. It's pure fan-service. It's perfectly possible to tell a good story without having that exact character type always present.
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 05:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 05:53 |
|
|
Were there any direct references to anything from the prequels? I didn't catch any.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 05:58
|
|
|
Lord Krangdar posted:Were there any direct references to anything from the prequels? I didn't catch any. Kylo Ren's joke about clone troopers, and that felt like a dig at the prequels. That's it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 05:59
|
|
|
Just got back from my first going. First impressions - real good movie, real strong directing, I'm kind of falling for Rey, the movie's good at all the things you want Star Wars to be good at. I'd give it a solid A right this second. Spoilery stuff: -I really like Kylo Ren. He's trying so loving hard you guys, stop trying to-Hey! No! NO YOU SHUT THE gently caress UP DAD I WANNA -Han and Ren on the bridge was fan-loving-tastic. I can't think of any way to improve that scene other than giving us a bit more understanding of how the Solos fell apart so badly before hitting that scene. -So, who the flying gently caress is Snoke? Right off the cuff I can only think he's going to be some sort of Palpatine connection or else some sort of Embodiment of Evil type of entity. What, was there just some other incredibly powerful sith lord chilling out in deep space until now? -The saber fight at the end was great because it's three dumb/wounded kids with only a vague idea of what they were doing. -Chewie taking Rey under his wing at the end.... 
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:00
|
|
|
Lord Krangdar posted:Were there any direct references to anything from the prequels? I didn't catch any. Kylo Ren mentioned to General Hux that maybe they should switch back to a clone army. That's the only one I caught.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:01
|
|
|
teagone posted:And, just spitballing here, but another thing I noticed is Rey and Leia's first meeting felt more like a reunion. Did it come off to anyone else that they already knew each other? Like maybe Rey is putting up this facade that she's an orphan and Leia is protecting her origin. I kind of felt this way the first time, but the second screening it kind of came off as if Leia and Rey were lamenting the death of their husband and father respectively. Maybe Leia was pregnant with Rey slightly before she and Han split? Leia had her sometime after, opted not to tell Han about her, and eventually left her on Jakku in order to protect her from Kylo Ren and Snoke. This was specifically explained in the movie: During the interrogation scene, Kylo Ren got Rey all mad because he said that Han is becoming like a father figure to her.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:03
|
|
|
Mahoning posted:Kylo Ren mentioned to General Hux that maybe they should switch back to a clone army. It was good exposition for why the First Order doesn't use clones and why Finn is black and not literally Jango Fett. Really more of a continuity thing. I mean, they mention the Clone Wars in a New Hope.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:04
|
|
|
This is probably really stupid but is Snoke a giant alien or just a hologram being projected much larger than the real person/being actually is? I mean at one point he sure looks like a hologram that disappears, kind of like the Emperor is in Empire Strikes Back.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:05
|
|
|
Beefstew posted:Kylo Ren's joke about clone troopers, and that felt like a dig at the prequels. That's it. Weren't all the storm troopers in the original trilogy clones as well?
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:07
|
|
|
Rageaholic Monkey posted:This is probably really stupid but is Snoke a giant alien or just a hologram being projected much larger than the real person/being actually is? I mean at one point he sure looks like a hologram that disappears, kind of like the Emperor is in Empire Strikes Back. He is a hologram. I think the hologram tech has improved in the intervening decades.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:07
|
|
|
qbert posted:Weren't all the storm troopers in the original trilogy clones as well? Nope
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:09
|
|
|
qbert posted:Weren't all the storm troopers in the original trilogy clones as well? No I don't think so.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:09
|
|
|
qbert posted:Weren't all the storm troopers in the original trilogy clones as well? No, they were mostly cycled out by then, both because they aged at a rapid rate and because by then 20 years have gone by and you have middle aged soldiers.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:09
|
|
|
Frackie Robinson posted:He is a hologram. I think the hologram tech has improved in the intervening decades. I mean there's the very real possibility that this is never explained, too.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:09
|
|
|
qbert posted:Weren't all the storm troopers in the original trilogy clones as well?
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:10
|
|
|
Rageaholic Monkey posted:This is probably really stupid but is Snoke a giant alien or just a hologram being projected much larger than the real person/being actually is? I mean at one point he sure looks like a hologram that disappears, kind of like the Emperor is in Empire Strikes Back. He's actually twice the size of the hologram, he has to project it smaller to be modest and not too intimidating
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:10
|
|
|
Frackie Robinson posted:It seems wrong for the movie to introduce a weapon of that magnitude and have it basically be an afterthought. It blows up a planet that we know nothing about, whose loss doesn't really even register for any of our main characters. The Resistance seemingly has been asleep at the wheel while the massive undertaking of its construction has taken place, and yet the solution falls in their lap and in movie time the destroy it within about an hour of learning of its existence. Plug, the dogfight when they're trying to blow up the shield feels completely divorced from what's going with our main characters. I like Poe, but we really haven't spent enough time with him to care what he's up to while we're switching between him and the other pilots and Rey, Finn, et. al. You really could have taken the whole thing out and not have significantly altered the arc of the movie, since Luke is the real MacGuffin This is like every single EU novel so I found it pretty amusing and somewhat fitting.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:10
|
|
|
Rageaholic Monkey posted:So is he a human or an alien? It almost looks like it could go either way. He could be a really hosed up looking human in the way the Emperor was, or he could be an alien. He is one of those two things, correct. Linguica posted:Considering the entire EU was thrown out, I'm not sure if there's a real answer now, but I think it's pretty well accepted that by the time of the original trilogy they were no longer using clones, or at least not exclusively. I mean just watching ANH, they vary in height and voice, plus I don't think they'd refer to the previous civil war as "The Clone Wars" if clones were still an ongoing thing. General Dog fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Dec 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:10
|
|
|
Rageaholic Monkey posted:This is probably really stupid but is Snoke a giant alien or just a hologram being projected much larger than the real person/being actually is? I mean at one point he sure looks like a hologram that disappears, kind of like the Emperor is in Empire Strikes Back. They probably left it ambiguous so they could go either way in the next movies.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:11
|
|
|
Linguica posted:Considering the entire EU was thrown out, I'm not sure if there's a real answer now, but I think it's pretty well accepted that by the time of the original trilogy they were no longer using clones, or at least not exclusively. You can tell just from the film itself. Stormtroopers were of all different heights (not even referring to Leia's snark, when they're standing near each other, they aren't even anywhere near to a uniform height), and speak in different voices.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:11
|
|
|
Frackie Robinson posted:This is kind of what I guessed, but where does that come from? The opening crawl. Proposition Joe posted:What was unexplained is where the First Order came from, if the Empire is still around, if those two are the same things, This is also explained in the opening crawl where it unambiguously states that the First Order rose from the remnants of the Empire. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Dec 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:12
|
|
|
Lord Krangdar posted:Were there any direct references to anything from the prequels? I didn't catch any. The plot does not, but it is still the sequel to Revenge of the Sith. Specifically, you won't understand Kylo Ren if you don't understand Anakin.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:14
|
|
|
Rageaholic Monkey posted:So is he a human or an alien? It almost looks like it could go either way. He could be a really hosed up looking human in the way the Emperor was, or he could be an alien. He's probably an alien since I doubt even Lucas would have done an all cgi human character.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:14
|
|
|
I'm not sure, but was it established that the opening sequence was Finn's first combat drop? That would explain why he suddenly grew a conscience at the thought of holocausting some villagers. He's just a guy who's hardwired to be too nice for that poo poo. I also liked that Kylo Ren sensed Finn's fear, and mysteriously didn't act on it. As it turns out, Kylo Ren probably saw too much of himself staring back at him. Very well-done characters.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:14
|
|
|
OneThousandMonkeys posted:I'm not sure, but was it established that the opening sequence was Finn's first combat drop? Yes, he says it during one of his conversations with Rey.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:15
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:The opening crawl. This is all we get about the Resistance's charter in the opening crawl: Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed. With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. There's still nothing to the effect of why the Republic needs a proxy. The idea that they're officially at peace with the New Order makes sense, but just two sentences of exposition making that explicit would have cleared up a lot, and as far as I can tell it's not there.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:17
|
|
|
SeANMcBAY posted:He's probably an alien since I doubt even Lucas would have done an all cgi human character. It's entirely possible and I'm not saying it can be ruled out, just seems a little unprecedented.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:18
|
|
|
Frackie Robinson posted:This is all we get about the Resistance's charter in the opening crawl: They mention it during one of the evil speeches as well IIRC.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:18
|
|
|
Rageaholic Monkey posted:Yeah, that's more what I was leaning towards myself, but it seems strange that an alien is the leader of this human army, especially if he's a Sith lord that's trying to resurrect the Sith or whatever. Maybe that's why he only communicates directly with Hux and Kylo.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:20
|
|
|
Bongo Bill posted:The plot does not, but it is still the sequel to Revenge of the Sith. Specifically, you won't understand Kylo Ren if you don't understand Anakin. You're right, but that's why I specified direct references. Frackie Robinson posted:There's still nothing to the effect of why the Republic needs a proxy. The idea that they're officially at peace with the New Order makes sense, but just two sentences of exposition making that explicit would have cleared up a lot, and as far as I can tell it's not there. It's said during the General's speech later. Not sure why that was included at all, though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:20
|
|
|
Rageaholic Monkey posted:It's entirely possible and I'm not saying it can be ruled out, just seems a little unprecedented. Theres not much precedent at all after discarding all EU. Including EU theres a fuckton so either way it shouldn't be limiting.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:20
|
|
|
Bongo Bill posted:Maybe that's why he only communicates directly with Hux and Kylo.  That would make sense.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:22
|
|
|
Anyone notice how the character posters for this movie all have something covering the right side of the face? That's where Rey lands her final blow on Kylo Ren, and also where Han Solo touches Ren's face right before he falls to his death. Snoke seems to have a bad scar on the other side of his face, but perhaps hologram technology flips the image? I have no loving clue. So maybe face scars are the new missing limbs in this trilogy.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:24
|
|
|
jivjov posted:You can tell just from the film itself. Stormtroopers were of all different heights (not even referring to Leia's snark, when they're standing near each other, they aren't even anywhere near to a uniform height), and speak in different voices. It seems like originally the idea was that the clone troopers would literally become stormtroopers. On the AOTC commentary Lucas talks about the gag where Jango bumps his head on the low door of the Slave I, the idea according to him being that it was a tendency of Jango's that would be cloned into the stormtroopers. Of course, you could quibble about whether the gag's implications were ever meant to be taken that seriously. Regardless, it was basically settled in 2004 when Lucas declined to have Temuera Morrison re-record the stormtroopers' voices for the DVD release. Cinematic convention says that if they don't have the same voice, they ain't clones. It all still works thematically, though. The stormtroopers are still spiritual descendants of the clone troopers. I like the way the showrunners of the Rebels cartoon put it: The Jedi helped turn the clones into individuals; in response, the Empire now turns individuals into clones.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:27
|
|
|
It just feels like they're trying to have their cake and eat it too, for the General Dog fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Dec 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:30
|
|
|
My roommate and I had different expectations heading into this movie, and I loved it. The movie was brilliant. Full stop. The entire film was an homage to the trilogy. Every single scene can be tied to the original three movies and yet the story itself introduces both a new and old generation to a 'fresh' Star Wars. It was an adventure through space that featured both familiar and new, drew a clear distinction between evil and good (and, I think, took special consideration to define the FO as super-evil super space Nazis). There were heart-felt moment, moments of levity, and tragedy. Han dying only punctuated the fact that time has moved on and we're in a new age. Ben solidifying his place on the dark side was a punch in the gut, a fallen angel, the tragedy of which can be read in Luke's eyes in the end (but then hope). Perhaps most impressive of all is that if Star Wars ended right here it would feel incomplete. In fact, it would feel as it has always been incomplete. That a lone is quite an accomplishment. I think the key to this movie is viewing it as the one that murdered the originals- ALL THREE, not just A New Hope, and in a good way. From here we're in uncharted territory and I suspect all of our heroes we grew up with will be dead by the time it's finished - replaced by new ones for a new generation Boon fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Dec 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:33
|
|
|
So when Kylo Ren is interrogating Rey, he takes off his helmet and puts it down in like a thing of ashes. Anyone have any ideas what that's about? Tell me it's loving Vader's ashes that he soaks his loving helmet in to try and get some of that Sith to rub off on him.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:40
|
|
|
Mahoning posted:So when Kylo Ren is interrogating Rey, he takes off his helmet and puts it down in like a thing of ashes. Anyone have any ideas what that's about? Tell me it's loving Vader's ashes that he soaks his loving helmet in to try and get some of that Sith to rub off on him. That's exactly what that is.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:42
|
|
|
Boon posted:drew a clear distinction between evil and good (and, I think, took special consideration to define the FO as super-evil super space Nazis) I agreed with him. That was some heavy poo poo for a Star Wars movie.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 05:53 |
|
|
Rageaholic Monkey posted:So the guy on the other side of me today (not the guy with the kid who cried but the other guy) after seeing the Nazi scene muttered "Jesus Christ..." under his breath and looked totally horrified. It wasn't that far from imagery in the previous movies. Just bigger, like the bigger death star.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2015 06:58
|
|