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I recall people saying earlier that The Force Awakens is the sequel to Revenge of the Sith, and thinking about it, I'm inclined to agree. Many have questioned why TFA is so similar to A New Hope, and the reason is simple: they are both sequels to the same film, which (along with the rest of the Prequels) imparts similar information about both of its direct sequels. It tells us how we got here: literally, in the case of ANH, and thematically for TFA. With the newest film, the Star Wars series has indeed looped back to its beginning: a bold resistance fighting an oppressive, violent power, helmed by a mysterious, ancient man, with his younger apprentice, a Skywalker, acting as the physical force of his desires. "How could this be? The Empire (Sith) was destroyed long ago, how is it they could've returned under the watchful eye of our heroic Rebels (Jedi)?", viewers ask. Luke disappeared holding these same questions. Why did his Jedi Order fall? How did the vanquished foe reemerge without his notice? Why is his Republic growing weak and impotent, vulnerable to destruction? How was a young Skywalker seduced and turned under his nose? In this sense, Luke did not disappear for us following Return of the Jedi, he became us, the audience. He is stated to have sought out the "first Jedi temple" in his absence, presumably seeking the answers to his questions, our questions, the questions that have already been answered over the past 16 years by the Prequels. We already know Luke's journey between the Originals and the Sequels; we've gone through it. Over the course of years, we (Luke) uncovered the reason behind the state of the galaxy at the beginning of A New Hope (The Force Awakens), and then waited for many years more for films (the opportunity) to put that knowledge to use. The Luke of the Sequels should be one with full knowledge of The Saga, finally prepared to "bring an end to this destructive conflict" by imparting this knowledge to his successors. He is to, again, succeed where Obi-Wan and Yoda failed. Motto fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 07:45
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I don't know why midichlorians are so terrible. Lots of mystical traditions believe that supernatural power produces physical symptoms in those who have it.
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Dec 22, 2015 07:46
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BrianWilly posted:The idea of conscious, sentient beings living inside you is also just kinda icky. Are they watching me in my..........private moments....? How is babby formed.
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Dec 22, 2015 07:52
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Arglebargle III posted:How is babby formed. Well, when the force loves a mom very much Anakin Skywalker is created.
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Dec 22, 2015 08:11
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Zero VGS posted:I wound up sitting next to a 4 year old during TFA who asked questions every three seconds while his dad spent the entire movie impotently trying to shush him. Now I understand how Anakin could bring himself to kill younglings, so in a way my disdain for children has slightly improved the prequels for me. Sorry a child ruined your enjoyment of this children's movie
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Dec 22, 2015 08:23
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Jerkface posted:I like the interpretations of the force with karma & chakra, except neither of those are little space bugs that live in your blood. Your chakra nodes do correspond to physical parts of your body, but there is not actually a physical presence there, its more about how your energy flows and poo poo through your body. Its not like they think, when massaging or pressuring some node or putting magnets on it, that an organ is being manipulated. Because midi-chlorians are supposed to be the part of the Force that manifests itself scientifically. It's not the whole Force--and science could never be sufficient to describe the whole Force in its entirety--but there is one aspect to the Force that's scientific. Lucas is a fuzzy, all-religions-are-true, New Age hippie kind of guy, and always has been. He doesn't draw as much of a distinction between different modes of thought as some people do. The Force represents all of reality. Science is one way of exploring that reality, and so of course the Force manifests itself there just as it manifests itself in the religious sphere; it just manifests itself in a different way. In this case, it manifests itself as the symbiotic relation between a bacterial organism and a eukaryotic organism, the primordial act of cooperation which made intelligent life--life capable of knowing the Force--possible in the first place. Look at it another way: Scientists might say they can describe "religious experiences" in terms of neurons misfiring in the brain. A religious person might say, "Okay, that's perfectly valid, and I'm sure you're measuring what you say you're measuring, but that's only one aspect of it. It was still a spiritual experience, and from my perspective, I was still communing with God, in a way which you could never adequately describe with your scientific instruments." But if you outright deny that religion and science can ever meaningfully intersect, as Stephen Jay Gould proposed should be the case, then such a compromise is impossible. You've either just destroyed religion in this instance, or you've just destroyed science. The Force doesn't seem like such a fuzzy, feel-good thing now, does it? quote:I would prefer it if it were more like chakra, and the force simply 'flows through' people better, ya know? Who says Qui-Gon couldn't see his aura? He clearly knew there was something special about Anakin far before he sent his blood to Obi-Wan for testing. But that doesn't mean he knew exactly how powerful Anakin was, or the full extent of his untapped potential in the Force. That's the kind of thing you need scientific instruments to measure. The problem here is that there's long been this entrenched narrative about how Star Wars' message is anti-technology. That's not true, though. Star Wars is agnostic toward technology. Look to Lucas's own words: George Lucas posted:Star Wars is made up of many themes. It's not just one little simple parable. One is our relationship to machines, which are fearful, but also benign. George Lucas posted:Having machines, like the droids, that are reasonably compassionate and a man like Vader who becomes a machine and loses his compassion was a theme that interested me. Star Wars is not Luddite in its outlook. George Lucas is not J.R.R. Tolkien (who was nevertheless a great influence on him). Technology isn't bad or good. Science isn't bad or good. The physical world itself isn't bad or good. It's all about what you do with these things. It's all about the choices you make as a human being. The choices you make are the only things that lie purely in the spiritual realm. That's the significance of the later revelations regarding Darth Plagueis. The midi-chlorians exist halfway in the world of science and halfway in the world of religion. The Jedi believe the Force exerted its will on the midi-chlorians to create Anakin. Palpatine seems to believe his old master exerted his will on the midi-chlorians to create Anakin. It's the same story--"Anakin Skywalker was conceived by the midi-chlorians to bring forth a prophecy"--but depending on your point of view, it portends completely different outcomes. If the Force created Anakin to be the champion of the Jedi, then the Chosen One must be a hero. If the Sith created Anakin to be their own champion, then it stands to reason that the Chosen One is in fact a villain, and the prophecy was misread, as Yoda comes to suspect in Episode III. The twist is that it doesn't matter: The prophecy is correct regardless of who influenced the midi-chlorians; Anakin is both a hero and a villain; and in the end he succeeds in bringing balance between light and dark.
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Dec 22, 2015 08:24
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Wow. That is the best defense of Mid-chlorians I have ever read.
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Dec 22, 2015 08:45
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I tend to think Sheev was the (accidental) protagonist of the prequels.
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Dec 22, 2015 08:49
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My take on midichlorians was that the prequels existed in an age of governance and science and thus things like the force were ordered and categorized versus the original trilogy where power was derived from might and likewise the force existed as a nebulous entity.
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Dec 22, 2015 09:40
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Ratios and Tendency posted:I tend to think Sheev was the (accidental) protagonist of the prequels. It's close; Sheev is the viewpoint character in all three prequels. That's to say the reason the prequels have this hyperreal aesthetic in the props, set design, etc., is because you're watching those events through Sheev-o-vision. He is watching events and saying 'look at these loving puppets, with their plastic cars. What a bunch of maroons. This is going to be easy.'. The reason fans reject the prequels is that they denial of Sheev's basic observation that Star Wars is fake, crass, silly.... It's a multibillion franchise with logos on fruit. Lightsabers are stupid. But Sheev revels in that stuff: "gently caress it - I've got a lightsaber too!" The correct response to Sheer's challenge would be to agree. And that's precisely what Luke does: he attempts suicide in order to reject Star Wars and everything it stands for. He's like "gently caress this universe. If the entire stupid universe is set up to reward only violence and power, then I quit." He throws his lightsaber away. But Vader steps up and does something far more radical: he dies for Star Wars' sins. And, as a consequence, he redeems Star Wars. But that's only if you truly believe. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 10:05 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 10:02
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At least TFA kept up the PT standards of awful dialogue.
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Dec 22, 2015 10:04
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Davros1 posted:At least TFA kept up Star Wars standards of awful dialogue.
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Dec 22, 2015 10:07
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Dec 22, 2015 10:09
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Mark Hamil is a loving treasure.
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Dec 22, 2015 10:21
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Can't beat the classics!
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Dec 22, 2015 10:26
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Why do y'all keep calling Palpatine "Sheev". Like, I know that's his stupid EU name now, but why are we acknowledging that?
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Dec 22, 2015 10:29
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Because it's awesome.
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Dec 22, 2015 10:31
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Beefstew posted:Why do y'all keep calling Palpatine "Sheev". Like, I know that's his stupid EU name now, but why are we acknowledging that? Snoke
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Dec 22, 2015 10:35
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Just watched the film, I liked it though I felt the movie was too frantic it kept jumping around especially at the start without any real exposition to ground things. Abrams seems like a director with ADHD everything bounces around from plot point to plot point without development or explanation (at times). Like I love Star Wars, but I had no idea why the Republic and Resistance were separate, who the old guy at the beginning was, who the gently caress giant hologram guy was and more. On the overhand I felt at times things were foreshadowed and strung well and you could follow what was happening even if you didn't know "why" it was going that way. Spoilers Reyy was a very huge Mary Sue, more so than Luke was. He didn't duel Vader to a standstill and resist mindfuckery in the new hope while also being an ace pilot... I mean he was a farmboy ace pilot, but he grew into being a badass jedi in the second film. Also it looked like Rey was wearing Bastilla's outfit from KOTOR to go with Ben Solo's "Revan" Mask. Also the new "Boba Fett" Brienne of Tarth lady did nothing, but then again neither did Fett in the movies really. This movie definately seemed to borrow alot from the Expanded Universe (not a problem) Imperial Remnant Hiding in Unknown Regions Sith Guy from Unknown Regions Ben not dying to the Vong and being very powerful (also turning sith) instead of Jacen/Jaina Galaxy Gun / Sun Crusher Imperial Doom Weapon Leia (Garm) breaking off from the Republic to run a militia to fight the Nu-Empire Republic being useless and divided so they ignore imperial remnants/sith/Vong till the situation is hosed. Motto posted:I recall people saying earlier that The Force Awakens is the sequel to Revenge of the Sith, and thinking about it, I'm inclined to agree. Many have questioned why TFA is so similar to A New Hope, and the reason is simple: they are both sequels to the same film, which (along with the rest of the Prequels) imparts similar information about both of its direct sequels. It tells us how we got here: literally, in the case of ANH, and thematically for TFA. With the newest film, the Star Wars series has indeed looped back to its beginning: a bold resistance fighting an oppressive, violent power, helmed by a mysterious, ancient man, with his younger apprentice, a Skywalker, acting as the physical force of his desires. "How could this be? The Empire (Sith) was destroyed long ago, how is it they could've returned under the watchful eye of our heroic Rebels (Jedi)?", viewers ask. Yeah this movie wasn't as enjoyable because it doesn't explain what is happening and essentially threw out what happened in the last three films, essentially it is ANH remake, but flashier. It just felt frustrating because it didn't seem to bring anything new to the table and just rehashed old themes in new locations. The only remote thing I can put together is 1. Luke did his NJO stuff, he had some success, 2. Empire diehards flee to Unknown Regions, finds some ancients sith master dude and rebuild in secret, the republic gets complacent, 3. Kylo Ren is evil goes crazy whatever and kills alot of Luke's students, probably due to manipulation by crazy evil sith hologram and Luke vanishes out of guilt/ being afraid he might fall to the dark side again. Remaining Jedi go into hiding like that old guy at the start (not that he was a jedi) and most are half baked "force sensitives" 4. Kylo Ren is found by the Empire and evil sith hologram man and starts hunting down the force sensitive jedi friends whle the Empire is plotting to gank the Republic with their death laser.
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Dec 22, 2015 10:35
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Jack2142 posted:Reyy was a very huge Mary Sue, more so than Luke was. He didn't duel Vader to a standstill and resist mindfuckery in the new hope while also being an ace pilot... Woah buddy, comparing Luke versus Vader to Rey versus Kylo Ren is not even a contest. It's made painfully obvious through dialogue and through actions that Kylo Ren is relatively untrained, unfocused, and not in control of his powers. For all we know he's still at the level of a padawan. He doesn't have a "Darth" title, which may indeed come in VIII when Snoke "completes his training". Plus he had been shot by a bowcaster, had just murdered his dad, and had been wounded by Finn. And Anakin seemed to do fine piloting a podracer as a 9-year-old or whatever, I'm sure Rey, with her knowledge of how ships work and a bit of clairvoyance, is not much different.
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Dec 22, 2015 10:43
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Beefstew posted:Why do y'all keep calling Palpatine "Sheev". Like, I know that's his stupid EU name now, but why are we acknowledging that? Sheev is supposed to hate his first name anyway. And I thought it was made canon by the same author who put that name in an EU book?
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Dec 22, 2015 10:45
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Beefstew posted:Why do y'all keep calling Palpatine "Sheev". Like, I know that's his stupid EU name now, but why are we acknowledging that? It's a funny name and it's become a meme.
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Dec 22, 2015 11:14
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Sheev is an awesome name for a Star Wars character. I dig it.
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Dec 22, 2015 11:20
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Supreme Leader Snookie
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Dec 22, 2015 11:26
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Wait a minute was the old guy at the beginning not Luke?
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Dec 22, 2015 11:31
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Lord Hydronium posted:I've never really understood the complaints about the politics in the prequels. There's, like, one mention in the opening crawl of TPM, then later there's the Senate scene whose whole point is about how Amidala wants to cut through all the bureaucratic bullshit and is fed up with talk of committees and procedures, and then the rest of the political scenes are Palpatine being an entertaining dick. You'd think from some comments that half the movie is a dissertation on Republic trade law. Folks misread the politics as boring, when the bulk of the 'politics' is a few very short scenes that exist purely to establish that politics itself is boring, and a weapon of the villain at that. The extreme revulsion at that minute or so of screentime is evidence that the film was ridiculously effective at this. This sort of portrayal has been in Lucas' work since the fuckin' start. In THX1138 there's an elongated scene where THX and various prisoners sit in a white room arguing about creating and managing various subcommittees RE: an escape attempt for aboslutely no reason, obviously too drugged-up to actually attempt to escape. THX rightfully realises this is a trap and just leaves.
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Dec 22, 2015 11:36
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Jack2142 posted:Reyy was a very huge Mary Sue, more so than Luke was. He didn't duel Vader to a standstill and resist mindfuckery in the new hope while also being an ace pilot... I mean he was a farmboy ace pilot, but he grew into being a badass jedi in the second film. So you're saying Rey would only slightly be a Mary Sue if she manifested her powers a little later in the second film? What difference would that make? Either way, you're way off base. The film clearly has been showing us that Rey has a unique connection to the Force and that her ability to attune it was progressively getting stronger. She was able to best Kylo Ren, not just because of that unique connection, but also because Ren took a bowcaster shot to the gut and was bleeding out, and had just killed his father (think about his already fragile state of mind). Oh and Finn managed to get a solid couple hits on Ren as well, maiming him even further. He was pretty messed up. Rey is the furthest thing from a Mary Sue. Luke, on the other hand, despite being a farm boy who had friends and lived in a home with his aunt and uncle going about a relatively normal life (as normal goes for a moisture farmer in the Outer Rim anyways), was able to infiltrate the Death Star, rescue a princess, all while killing several stormtroopers in the process and ended up destroying the Death Star in the end. How did he obtain those skills necessary to do such things? Rey was abandoned as a child; no family, no friends. She lived alone in a harsh culture and environment. She's a survivor and likely had to fight for her life everyday so it makes sense that she's inherently strong willed and capable of doing the things she did. Her ability with the Force only amplified her already strong character foundation. teagone fucked around with this message at 11:49 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 11:40
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icantfindaname posted:Wait a minute was the old guy at the beginning not Luke? That was Max von Sydow.
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Dec 22, 2015 11:44
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Fantastic movie. Few things. Han knows Kenobi for an hour. Leia never meets him. Let's name our son after him? Works for Luke's son, less so Hans son. Any reason the shiny captain couldn't have been the badass trooper fighting hand to hand with light saber staff? And regarding the "force is strong with my family" line. If it was recorded for The Force Awakens, wouldn't Luke have said "my father HAD it?" New look sabers and sounds were loving amazing. Way better than the toys in prequals urseus fucked around with this message at 11:53 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 11:51
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urseus posted:Han knows Kenobi for an hour. Leia never meets him. Let's name our son after him? Works for Luke's son, less so Hans son. "Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope." If it weren't for Kenobi, Leia would probably have died on the Death Star.
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Dec 22, 2015 11:55
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Hbomberguy posted:The politics are treated as boring distractions by the film itself. Nah it's more like the film itself is a boring distraction From watching other better films that aren't dumb and lame
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Dec 22, 2015 12:00
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It was Master Not-appearing-in-previous-movies-but-is-treated-as-someone-we're-supposed-to-already-know-and-care-about. Strange name, but he's 1/16 Bothan on the father's side.
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Dec 22, 2015 12:01
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I saw it today and it was really good, wish it had more politics though. Yahan Ruhian was wasted, weren't there meant to be a couple of other guys from The Raid in this as well? Maz is a really good character
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Dec 22, 2015 12:07
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Saw the movie yesterday. I felt it was too safe of a sequel. Wanted more exposition, especially about the nature of the force having been awakened. To keep with the recent topic: Rey being a mary sue is missing the point. There's enough to reason she earned her position. The real issue is power creep. Now that the force has awakened, everyone's force powers are being ramped up, both in scope and understanding. Rey is gifted and no doubt the next chosen one. In the previous films, it would've taken her all three movies to mature, but now she will get that in two. By the time the second film is over, she will become neo and stop all the blasters. By the end of the third film, she will force kamehameha Snoke (lol it's totally plagueis) past several planets and into a red giant. Similarly, Ren is already more powerful than Vader, but has yet to realize it. He can stop blaster shots, whereas Vader could only deflect them. Once his training is complete, he's going to be a monster. The force is no longer subtle, but forthright. This is a drastic change from the previous films and I believe why some confuse Rey's quick path to power as poor character portrayal.
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Dec 22, 2015 12:32
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teagone posted:"Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope." If it weren't for Kenobi, Leia would probably have died on the Death Star. I always figured Leia met Obi Wan at a different point. The message to me indicated that she knew him.
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Dec 22, 2015 12:49
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MrSmokes posted:Sheev is an awesome name for a Star Wars character. I dig it. I always imagined he'd have a vaguely Latin and pompous sounding first name like Demetrius or something like that.
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Dec 22, 2015 12:52
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Darth TNT posted:I always figured Leia met Obi Wan at a different point. The message to me indicated that she knew him. Well he was a general of the Old Republic, and I would assume Bail Organa was still aware of him not being dead and probably tipping Leia off to summon him back into the fold. Other than that one moment when Kenobi handed baby Leia over to Bail, I doubt she met him. Bail also probably told her a ton of stories about him because he was a legendary bad rear end. But I always just assumed Obi Wan was hanging out in exile on Tatooine and keeping an eye on Luke from afar in the meantime.
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Dec 22, 2015 13:44
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Zero VGS posted:I wound up sitting next to a 4 year old during TFA who asked questions every three seconds while his dad spent the entire movie impotently trying to shush him. Now I understand how Anakin could bring himself to kill younglings, so in a way my disdain for children has slightly improved the prequels for me. My 4 year old was awesome and only spoke out "daddy" to remind me to whisper the Raid dudes subtitles.
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Dec 22, 2015 13:57
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Exclamation Marx posted:Maz is a really good character I can see her dividing people, but she won me over quickly Where's my boyfriend? I like that wookiee.
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Dec 22, 2015 14:51
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Motto posted:A thought that came to me while watching the RLM review of TFA: many of the messages of the prequels were communicated to detractors, just not in the intended fashion. People who dislike the prequels generally believe that they're earnestly presenting their surface or assumed narratives (the Jedi were a great order silenced by cunning trickery, Anakin was a pure, kindly, noble warrior until suddenly seduced), failed in that, and as such audiences reject them, ironically arriving at the correct conclusions: the ways of the prequel Jedi were wrong and the cause of their downfall, Anakin was an unbalanced, broken person, his issues stupidly unaddressed and taken advantage of by Palpatine, etc. It comes down to poor filmmaking, the prequels convey their intended message but in such a clumsy way that it seems to be due to incompetence rather than design. Not every idea in the prequels was a bad one, but they are marred by bad filmmaking and a failure to establish an emotional connection with the characters before the tragedy.
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