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Anosmoman posted:Pretty much. The attempt to build a moderate opposition largely failed but it was worth a shot. Bombing Assad could have forced an eventual ground war if the rebels taking power happened to be fundie jihadis. Propping up Assad would have aligned the US with a bona fide genocidal lunatic and giving every tin pot dictator carte blanche to go into murder overdrive to suppress dissent. Worked for most of the 20th century.
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Dec 22, 2015 17:07
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ReidRansom posted:Worked for most of the 20th century. Kinda depends on who you ask
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Dec 22, 2015 17:08
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My Imaginary GF posted:I fail to see what would be wrong with ordering carpet bombings on Agrabah. I can totally see Reagan as having ordered that bombing
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Dec 22, 2015 17:09
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Shageletic posted:Obama's hand's off approach to Syria is probably the smartest example of US foreign policy in 15 years. Setting the bar awfully low there, though, aren't you?
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Dec 22, 2015 17:09
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So it's Congress' fault that Obama couldn't bomb Syria, but Obama deserves all the credit for the "brilliant" move of allowing ISIS the breathing room to self organize and roll back into Iraq. Meanwhile we're supposed to ignore the bellicose saber rattling he actually *did* before realizing it was too politicially risky. I... guess this is what environmentalists feel when facing climate change deniers.
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Dec 22, 2015 17:20
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http://www.mediaite.com/online/elderly-wisconsin-woman-claims-neighbors-chanted-isis-is-good-isis-is-great-during-sex/ "Elderly Wisconsin Woman Claims Neighbors Chanted ‘ISIS Is Good, ISIS Is Great’ During Sex" hahahaha
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Dec 22, 2015 17:25
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TheQat posted:http://www.mediaite.com/online/elderly-wisconsin-woman-claims-neighbors-chanted-isis-is-good-isis-is-great-during-sex/ "Elderly Wisconsin Woman Claims Neighbors Chanted ‘ISIS Is Good, ISIS Is Great’ During Sex" hahahaha File footage of the neighbor in question. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mdFctlvB3w
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Dec 22, 2015 17:28
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Thump! posted:Setting the bar awfully low there, though, aren't you? Yes. Yes I am.
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Dec 22, 2015 17:38
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I'm a big Obama fan, but you really can't defend that his "red line" was possibly the biggest foreign policy blunder of his tenure as president. It absolutely killed US credibility wrt Syria, especially after the lofty promises of the Cairo speech. Well, second biggest blunder. First biggest was not intervening in Syria early, we've pissed off almost everyone in region due to our failure to support the anti-Assad opposition. You really think ISIL would be as strong as it is today without being able to use Assad as a recruiting tool, as a perfect example of how the U.S. doesn't care about (Sunni) Muslims? There are lots of reasons why we can't and shouldn't just bomb the presidential palace to rubble, but the fact of the matter is that we should have imposed a no fly zone and given lethal aid at the beginning of the conflict. Now, I say this with the benefit of hindsight. When the conflict began I advocated against sending aid, as I was concerned that, due to a lack of local intelligence, we would be forced to send supplies through the GCC, meaning to the Islamic Front and other, anti-american forces. At the time imposing a no fly zone or sending lethal aid would have been considered premature based on the available evidence at the time. But knowing what we know now? We should not let our fear of another Iraq have prevented us from aiding the moderate opposition to the Syrian regime. We would have preserved a whole lot of goodwill that we've basically pissed away. E: also while I'm fine with Obama basically saying "gently caress you" to congress, I'm fine because I agree with him. The wanton disregard for procedure and concentration of executive power sets a very poor precedent.
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Dec 22, 2015 17:40
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Cat Army 
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TheDisreputableDog posted:So it's Congress' fault that Obama couldn't bomb Syria, Arguing against the opposite of what people actually say doesn't really help your point, you know. Shageletic posted:Obama's hand's off approach to Syria is probably the smartest example of US foreign policy in 15 years. Or it wouldn't, if you had a point. Which you don't.
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Dec 22, 2015 17:40
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The Iron Rose posted:I'm a big Obama fan, but you really can't defend that his "red line" was possibly the biggest foreign policy blunder of his tenure as president. It absolutely killed US credibility wrt Syria, especially after the lofty promises of the Cairo speech. Going to go ahead and stop your bullshit in your first sentence. Here's the full context for the red line (hint: it was specifically about chemical weapons- which were handled successfully): quote:Obama: "... I have, at this point, not ordered military engagement in the situation. But the point that you made about chemical and biological weapons is critical. That’s an issue that doesn’t just concern Syria; it concerns our close allies in the region, including Israel. It concerns us. We cannot have a situation where chemical or biological weapons are falling into the hands of the wrong people.
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Dec 22, 2015 17:42
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It looks weak and was a blunder. Fortunately nobody remembers it. e: anybody who remembers it is too busy begging for our help to scold us for it
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Dec 22, 2015 17:43
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Joementum posted:Quote of the nobody cares, “I always want to help my country where I can, but you don’t want to embark on a suicide mission. I’m not ready for a third-party run until we have a complete collapse of the Republican Party that I can still believe in.” ~ Jon Huntsman. Jon Huntsman is an accelerationist? 
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Dec 22, 2015 17:47
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Joementum posted:Chelsea Clinton just announced she's pregnant again and expecting in the summer, probably during the convention as a stunt to steal all of Bernie's delegate support!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4FpKbMoLnk
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Dec 22, 2015 17:49
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TheDisreputableDog posted:So it's Congress' fault that Obama couldn't bomb Syria, but Obama deserves all the credit for the "brilliant" move of allowing ISIS the breathing room to self organize and roll back into Iraq. So should the US have struck harder against ISIS, or not? Should we have entered into a proper ground war there, or not? It's kinda hard to figure out what your point is, when you seem to simultaneously hold the belief that more aggressive military action against ISIS is both justified, but also too bellicose.
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Dec 22, 2015 17:49
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Mitt Romney posted:Going to go ahead and stop your bullshit in your first sentence. Here's the full context for the red line (hint: it was specifically about chemical weapons- which were handled successfully): The chemical weapons were handled "successfully" (hint: there's still low-scale chemical weapons being used in Syria) due to Russian intervention, not American. We looked weak, we looked flakey, and we looked unwilling to follow through on our promises. It was a huge signalling failure.
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Dec 22, 2015 17:49
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Regarding bombs, keep in mind we're facing a serious shortage of precision guided weapons due to manufacturing bottlenecks. Family member gave me a tour yesterday of their USAF bomber squadron headquarters. In their lounge bar the counter is covered in bomb symbols each representing 30 tons dropped in the conflicts the unit has been involved in. It really stood out to me because in the Middle East conflicts from Desert Storm to present they'd dropped more bombs than WW2 + Korea combined.
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Dec 22, 2015 17:50
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Republicans posted:I wonder if good comedians/writers ever tried to make legit funny "conservative" humor out of either a sense of pity or for the challenge of it. http://web.archive.org/web/20061018041520/home.neo.rr.com/jsryan/writings/gianttreasury.html
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Dec 22, 2015 17:50
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Zombie Samurai posted:Arguing against the opposite of what people actually say doesn't really help your point, you know. Are you disagreeing? I can't tell. To put it simply, anymore overt military presence in Syria would act as a destablizing force, as seen in the last decade and change. EDIT: Retroactively, I see that I'm an idiot. Carry on. Shageletic fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 17:52
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:You never argue anything in good faith Waaaaah boo hoo quote:he tried to pass immigration reform through congress, who failed to act repeatedly, and then just said "nope we're not doing anything." So he did what what literally the last four presidents have done (and in smaller measure than two Republicans did if we're counting.) Excuse me? Reagan took an existing *law* that covered 3 million and expanded it by 100K. Bush took an existing program and expanded it by like a million. Obama just decided by executive fiat that 5 million people are allowed to stay here, based on... Nothing. If your comment is some attempt to make an apples to apples comparison of raw numbers of executive actions, well - it's pretty funny that you're accusing me of arguing in bad faith. quote:He's not up for a "spanking" by the court. They shopped that case around to a district where the dude is a wanton rear end in a top hat activist con judge. It will almost certainly get overturned (and not overturning it, basically causes havoc with executive action. which by the way, he's used sparingly compared to his immediate predecessors.) You don't like the original ruling and you think it will be overturned by scouts. Okay, your feelings are noted. quote:Your entire argument is predicated on Obama being "#lawless" which is dishonest and outright untrue, but you won't admit it because then you don't have anything to attack Obama on. Nearly every trouble spot in the world worse off than when he took office, a semi permanent jihad State, maintaining indefinite detention of terrorists, extra judicial execution of US citizens, a historically low employment participation rate, lower adjusted mean income, expanding the unitary power of the executive, a healthcare plan perilously close to losing all insurance company backing, prosecution of journalists and whistleblowers alike. But yes, other than that we have nothing to critique.
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Dec 22, 2015 17:54
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Pellisworth posted:Regarding bombs, keep in mind we're facing a serious shortage of precision guided weapons due to manufacturing bottlenecks. Prior to the Paris attacks, there had been like 7000 bombing sorties flown in ISIS airspace, and we flew like 6200 of them. It's an absolutely absurd point to act like we're not bombing the hell out of them in on a daily basis and have dealt them serious blows. Like, it would help if Republicans/Conservatives ITT would make honest arguments so that we really could have a debate about the Obama Doctrine and it's execution, but because they refuse to live in reality, it forces the left into basically, as a default position just defending his actions because they're so willfully dishonest.
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Dec 22, 2015 17:54
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TheDisreputableDog posted:maintaining indefinite detention of terrorists 
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Dec 22, 2015 17:56
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Global warming is worse than when Obama took office, better blame him for that too!
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Dec 22, 2015 17:56
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Mitt Romney posted:(hint: it was specifically about chemical weapons- which were handled successfully): Adorable
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Dec 22, 2015 17:57
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hey tdd should we have gone to war with isis or not answer the loving question jfc
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Dec 22, 2015 18:02
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Christ it's almost as if this dog isn't reputable!
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Dec 22, 2015 18:03
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mirror TheDisreputableDog posted:I can't believe Obama mired our troops in a civil war, and without Congressional approval. This is the greatest foreign policy blunder of the 21st century.
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Dec 22, 2015 18:03
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Prior to the Paris attacks, there had been like 7000 bombing sorties flown in ISIS airspace, and we flew like 6200 of them. It's an absolutely absurd point to act like we're not bombing the hell out of them in on a daily basis and have dealt them serious blows. Yeah, from what I gathered it's not like they're holding back on droppin' bombs. I think we've just gotten so used to no-fly zones and bombing campaigns as an easy "fix" and convenient political rhetoric. Another couple interesting factoids I picked up: -At least for B1s, they receive their targeting information while already in the air over Iraq/Syria rather than planning that before takeoff. Largely because of how time-sensitive things are. -Clinton's no-fly zone is an absolutely idiotic idea. The Air Force really does NOT want to have to deal with the Russians.
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Dec 22, 2015 18:07
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Waaaaah boo hoo well he didn't actually refute the idea that he is a bad faith poster. guess everyone can stop replying to him now (please stop replying to him)
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Dec 22, 2015 18:09
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I think the overall takeaway here is that it's really easy to criticize Obama for not having any good answers to a problem with no good answers. Like, it's valid enough to critique Obama's strategy in the middle east as ineffective, but I feel like the corollary to that is that there's not one person in the American government who has a good idea that would be any more effective.
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Dec 22, 2015 18:10
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Pellisworth posted:-At least for B1s, they receive their targeting information while already in the air over Iraq/Syria rather than planning that before takeoff. Largely because of how time-sensitive things are. I generally don't put a lot of stock in what rank and file officers say about what is and isn't a good idea w/r/t politics (she's also not the only one saying it, and she's also not saying it would be exclusionary to the Russians -- that's Christie.) She's also largely just politicking on that point, and perhaps better than anyone in the race, has pretty good insight into how things work when you're actually in power versus campaigning.
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Dec 22, 2015 18:10
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Man, I haven't seen this many conservatives slamming Obama and the Democrats in USPOL since the L A T E R S purge of 2008.TheDisreputableDog posted:Obama just decided by executive fiat that 5 million people are allowed to stay here, based on... Nothing. Prosecutorial discretion, actually. But I guess Obama's just supposed to spend time and effort focusing on the otherwise-law-abiding moms and dads instead of trying to hunt down habitual/violent offenders. Or else he's breaking the law I guess!
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Dec 22, 2015 18:14
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TheQat posted:well he didn't actually refute the idea that he is a bad faith poster. guess everyone can stop replying to him now I cited factual examples of why Obama's actions are way beyond the scope of historical precedent. But no one likes to think about that so I must be trolling, I get it.
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Dec 22, 2015 18:14
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ComradeCosmobot posted:Man, I haven't seen this many conservatives slamming Obama and the Democrats in USPOL since the L A T E R S purge of 2008. I thought you lefty types were all about criticizing President Obama though for not being a commie pacifist like y'all wanted in 2008? I'm just doing the same thing really. I'm even being remarkably charitable. I expected this level of defensiveness from establishment democrats like me, not internet radical left wingers.
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Dec 22, 2015 18:18
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TheDisreputableDog posted:I cited factual examples of why Obama's actions are way beyond the scope of historical precedent. As was just posted immediately above you, prosecutorial discretion is in no way beyond the scope of historical precedent.
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Dec 22, 2015 18:18
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Possibly worth noting: the disparagement clause the trademark board used to strike the trademark for "Redskins," as in the football team, was just struck down by the Federal Circuit for violating the first amendment in another case, In re Tam. It concerned the registration of an all-Asian-American band with the name "The Slants." And yes, the DC Football Team filed an amicus brief with the court encouraging the clause be struck.
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Dec 22, 2015 18:19
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Obama just decided by executive fiat that 5 million people are allowed to stay here, based on... Nothing. Technically, Congress decided that 5 million people are allowed to stay here based on them not funding deporting all 12 million undocumented immigrants.
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Dec 22, 2015 18:19
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TheQat posted:well he didn't actually refute the idea that he is a bad faith poster. guess everyone can stop replying to him now
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Dec 22, 2015 18:19
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Relentlessboredomm posted:Just arrived in FL to visit the family and spent an hour long car ride arguing with my Dad. Should've asked him what he thinks Manifest Destiny means (America as a concept might as well be a religion at this point).
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Dec 22, 2015 18:20
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TheDisreputableDog posted:I cited factual examples of why Obama's actions are way beyond the scope of historical precedent.
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Dec 22, 2015 18:21
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