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Killer robot posted:The central issue is the usual one: progress is the enemy of activism. Or at least acknowledging progress is the enemy. Regardless of whether your actual cause is good or bad, "everything is getting worse we're all doomed unless we act!" is always a much more satisfying narrative for your struggle than "things are moving in the right direction so let's keep going!" And yet, the most successful political campaigns reject that frame...
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Dec 24, 2015 20:18
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Everblight posted:Good thing America doesn't have any cities or major industries located on the coasts then! Just Ma and Pa Kent in the corn-filled heartland up to the mysteriously-empty 50 mile mark that leads to the shores. Well we'd still have farmland so I'm pretty sure we win.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:19
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Well we'd still have farmland so I'm pretty sure we win. If you call Ohio being a major population center "winning"
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Dec 24, 2015 20:23
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Gravel Gravy posted:It'd probably just be cheaper to erase or level a large part of Panama. There's still no road that goes all the way through Panama. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dari%E9n_Gap
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Dec 24, 2015 20:23
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computer parts posted:There's still no road that goes all the way through Panama. It would be comically evil to destroy a large swath of Panama and circumvent the need for the canal so soon after handing off ownership.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:27
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Combed Thunderclap posted:Pocatello cafeteria worker given an offer of reinstatement. That is the nonapology I've come to know and love from Idaho governmental offices. Related, someone got Cards Against Humanity for xmas last night, and added the handwritten cards "The entire Idaho Legislature", "Butch Otter" and "Butch otters".
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Dec 24, 2015 20:27
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Joementum posted:That's absolutely not what I'm saying. I was responding to a declinist view of life in America which is objectively untrue. While this is objectively true in regards to the absolute level of living standards, we should also be concerned with the rate of change, and inequality, and the case there isn't as easy to make.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:41
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Multiple posters in this thread have echoed a recent ( to me? ) meme that Sanders is better than Clinton on Israel. ... I can't find any difference between them. Forget judging of better/worse/trivial. They appear to be in lockstep. Usually when a meme drops it has enough detail that I can research it. "Why didn't Bill veto DOMA?", for example, is really obvious when you google the vote and see it had a bipartisan veto proof support in the legislature. 85-14 ( http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=104&session=2&vote=00280 ) in the senate and 342-67 ( http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1996/roll316.xml ) in the house. Gee, what a mystery. But the claims that Sanders is "better" than Clinton on Israel have no specific reasoning as to why. They both support a two state solution. They both refuse to condemn Israel for firing rockets back and both characterize Israeli rockets as retaliatory ... I honestly don't know enough about the conflict to know if this is an accurate portrayal but the point is they agree with each other so you can't use this as a differentiator between them. Clinton has more material to go through and apparently she was the person to negotiate a long term cease fire there in 2012 that lasted nearly two years and didn't break down until after she had stepped down as SoS. What's not to like a out cease fires? There is a poo poo ton of right wingers writing about her at that time angry that she wasn't tough enough on Palestine and wanting her to refuse to hold talks until Palestine met "preconditions" blah blah blah. She ignored them and brokered peace. The feel-the-bern meme factory does the "but we have apples!" thing on its web pages where they list Bernie's Israel positions as if they were unusual : http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-israel-and-the-palestinians/ but the only point I see that differs from Clinton is saying that Bernie opposes the use of economic sanctions as a negotiating tool. Which is kind of baffling because if you rule out the use of both military and economic action you don't have much leverage to negotiate with ... So thank goodness Bernie doesn't actually oppose them and can be seen on his own site listing the threat of them as a Good Thing ( http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-read/war-should-be-the-last-option-why-i-support-the-iran-nuclear-deal ). For obvious reasons he doesn't credit Clinton directly in that piece but he is explicitly praising her tactics and goals. Furthermore, Bernie completely abandons his isolationist leanings on this topic. He is unabashedly interventionist on this one. https://berniesanders.com/issues/war-and-peace/ Bernie agreeing with Hillary on Israel posted:
I give up. Why do goons think Bernie is better on Israel than the woman who literally negotiated a two year cease fire ... when even Bernie writes pieces on his own website saying he supports her work, goals, methods, and results? Bonus clip of Hillary discussing the issue with Jon on the daily show: http://www.cc.com/video-clips/tqvly9/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-exclusive---hillary-clinton-extended-interview-pt--3
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Dec 24, 2015 20:54
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Joementum posted:Actually, the difference in living standards between now and other points in American history is even more pronounced for racial minorities. You don't say
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Dec 24, 2015 20:55
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McDowell posted:I've been arguing that it is in the USA's best interest to unite North and South America economically against the coming upsets. Contiguous continents must become a unified population as globalization continues. At the very least, we need countries united in a global confederacy similar to the EU to combat the issue of global capital exploiting undeveloped labor pools and tax shelters. 20th century intra-country labor unions and political boundaries divided by countries are hopelessly antiquated and powerless against 21st century inter-country capital which seamlessly transitions between countries.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:55
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I think the important thing is to realize that though living conditions are good now, some issues are getting worse (access to abortion, backlash to transgender people), and they can continue to get worse if nobody acts. History isn't just one big long procession towards utopia, it's a constant negotiation and re-negotiation of power and access to resources. The Jezebel essay shared earlier in the thread does a good job of summing up my thoughts. The left is winning the culture war, cool, but a general sense of "wow that's so hosed up" doesn't necessarily change anything. We need a results-based strategy. That's why BLM and the student protests are so important. Direct action gets results, even if they're not winning the editorial popularity contest.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:58
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McAlister posted:I give up. Why do goons think Bernie is better on Israel than the woman who literally negotiated a two year cease fire ... when even Bernie writes pieces on his own website saying he supports her work, goals, methods, and results? The best I can come up with is "he invited Noam Chomsky to speak in Burlington in 1985."
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Dec 24, 2015 20:59
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Expect Kim Davis to be in the news again because Brevin just signed an executive order giving her exactly what she wants as a God-fearin', homo-hatin Real American. Merry Christmas, goons. e: I kant spel 
Evil Fluffy fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 21:07
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Sanders also skipped Netanyahu's address to Congress, and you can find his reasoning here. Personally, I doubt that a Senator Clinton would have skipped that address but who knows. On the whole, you are correct to conclude that there is very little daylight between Sanders and Clinton with respect to Israel.
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Dec 24, 2015 21:09
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Why on earth did Kentuckians elect Bevin to office? He just seems to be a cavalcade of terrible for basically everyone including the Republican base.
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Dec 24, 2015 21:10
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Your Dunkle Sans posted:Why on earth did Kentuckians Good luck with lines of inquiry such as this.
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Dec 24, 2015 21:11
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Sheldon Adelson's purchase and subsequent fuckery of that Vegas newspaper is having ripple effects clear across the country. A veteran local reporter just quit like a loving boss and blew the whistle on what's been going on at a Bristol, CT newspaper in connection with Adelson.
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Dec 24, 2015 21:20
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Other than coastal areas isn't it predicted that global warming will impact North America the least? I don't have the link anymore, but there was an interesting region/state specific study on climate change. All I can recall was the PNW/Washington State would have issues with ocean levels, more mudslides, and our forests devastated by insect species that feed on them. The latter won't actually kill the forest, but cause a number of species to die out and be replaced with ones that adapt better to the new climate, changing the look and possibly the function of the ecosystem.
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Dec 24, 2015 21:24
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Joementum posted:And yet, the most successful political campaigns reject that frame...  tone argumentshameful.
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Dec 24, 2015 21:24
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Your Dunkle Sans posted:Why on earth did Kentuckians elect Bevin to office? He just seems to be a cavalcade of terrible for basically everyone including the Republican base. 1) Super-low turnout among the young, liberal set because off-year election, Bevin's hard-core social issues campaign seemed totally nuts, polls showed Bevin probably not winning (it's apparently tough to capture the KY electorate/polling houses just aren't nearly as good at their jobs as people expect) 2) Super-high turnout among the non-liberal set because Bevin ran hard-core on social issues and against Obama that really turned them out; helpfully Bevin also pissed off the Republican establishment which, ironically, was an awesome Republican strategy because it only made R voters go even more gaga for his indie cred I'm just working off of the KY Board of Elections stats and don't know how the campaigns did on the ground, so if anyone knows anything more about what the campaigns did right/wrong, your insights would be much appreciated.
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Dec 24, 2015 21:35
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GlitchThief posted:I'm going to launch my country singing career off of "Anxious-Yet-Relieved To Be An American" I could get behind that. Esp. with an AV like your'n. Trucknutz Anthems! poo poo writes itself!
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Dec 24, 2015 21:40
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See, deep down I know these things already, but sometimes I just have to express my incredulity at these things actually happening. 
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Dec 24, 2015 21:40
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Rhesus Pieces posted:Sheldon Adelson's purchase and subsequent fuckery of that Vegas newspaper is having ripple effects clear across the country. A veteran local reporter just quit like a loving boss and blew the whistle on what's been going on at a Bristol, CT newspaper in connection with Adelson. You mean the LV Review-Journal? I remember everybody was asking who bought it like it was a big mystery, it seemed pretty obvious to me at the time that it was Adelson. He has a particular way of concealing his funding that might as well be a name tag.
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Dec 24, 2015 21:41
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Yeah the one thing I don't agree with at all is his I/P position, but good luck finding any American politician in a major position of authority who isn't in lockstep with AIPAC.
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Dec 24, 2015 21:48
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Your Dunkle Sans posted:Why on earth did Kentuckians elect Bevin to office? He just seems to be a cavalcade of terrible for basically everyone including the Republican base. No Democrats from Lexington or Louisville showed up at the polls because hey we got this in the bag polling shows a 10 point lead!
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Dec 24, 2015 21:55
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Your Dunkle Sans posted:See, deep down I know these things already, but sometimes I just have to express my incredulity at these things actually happening. It is totally surreal that only 400,000 out of 4.4 million people (and 3.2 million registered voters) actually voted, and that means that 85,000 extra people voting for Bevin = Kynect, the most successful state health care exchange in the nation, is dead and we're back to Religious Freedom Funtimes. Also goddamn you Fark.com founder running as an independent  His votes still wouldn't have made the ultimate difference, but he sure as hell didn't make things easier for Conway.
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Dec 24, 2015 21:58
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hobbesmaster posted:No Democrats from Lexington or Louisville showed up at the polls because hey we got this in the bag polling shows a 10 point lead! Probably not, since people tend to come out to support a winner (so that they're on the winning side).
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Dec 24, 2015 22:00
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FlamingLiberal posted:Yeah the one thing I don't agree with at all is his I/P position, but good luck finding any American politician in a major position of authority who isn't in lockstep with AIPAC. I think that Sanders might be slightly more inclined to criticize right wing Israelis while Clinton will agree with whatever Bibi says he has to do. I'm not sure if there is an actually difference in how we interact with Israel since they both seem to totally support the country. Combed Thunderclap posted:It is totally surreal that only 400,000 out of 4.4 million people (and 3.2 million registered voters) actually voted, and that means that 85,000 extra people voting for Bevin = Kynect, the most successful state health care exchange in the nation, is dead and we're back to Religious Freedom Funtimes. Yeah it's pretty depressing when you think about the tiny amount of people that vote for the winner of the primaries and then that guy goes on to win based on a fraction of the total populace because of team jersey poo poo and that's what decides policy for everyone. I really don't know what the solution to this is but it's really terrible. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Dec 24, 2015 |
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Dec 24, 2015 22:00
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I guess their might be minute differences, but in the end I don't see a substantial difference.
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Dec 24, 2015 22:04
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McAlister posted:Multiple posters in this thread have echoed a recent ( to me? ) meme that Sanders is better than Clinton on Israel. I actually have an answer to this. Bernie Sanders used to be very vocal about Israel being a lovely friend to us. To the point where he even in a few interviews said 'we need to tell Israel to stop their abuses, or maybe we just will have to stop giving them money if they say no'. This was, as you can imagine, a rough stance for a Jewish politician to have, and now that he's in the national stage he's taken a couple more turns. He actually turned VERY hard right, to the point where he famously in a speaking event kicked out a Palestinian activist who asked him a question and threatened to call the cops on a crowd that boo'd him for saying 'hey why are you so worried about Israel, ISIS is scarier'. Since THEN, though, he's...softened is a wrong word for this but he's gone less far right on the issue than he used to, once again condemning Israeli aggression and all. Still, though, when asked about his past statements he categorically denies them even though they're on record. So, basically, people see his most recent shifts and think he's making some dramatic leftward shift, but in reality he's still massively to the right of where he used to be, and I don't trust a goddamn word out of his mouth on the I/P issue like I do any other American leader.
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Dec 24, 2015 22:05
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^she didn't just "ask a question" and get kicked out. She asked something and he responded with an answer she didn't like and she had a tear-filled meltdown like a loving weirdo. It's uncomfortable to watch and annoying but here's the video.
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Dec 24, 2015 22:10
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Radish posted:Yeah it's pretty depressing when you think about the tiny amount of people that vote for the winner of the primaries and then that guy goes on to win based on a fraction of the total populace because of team jersey poo poo and that's what decides policy for everyone. I really don't know what the solution to this is but it's really terrible. Getting young voters to, ya know, vote, especially during the off-years, is one of the perpetual mysteries of American democracy and I have no loving clue how to solve it. We really need some kind of Rock the Vote 2.0 that works on non-presidential/state elections. FlamingLiberal posted:I guess their might be minute differences, but in the end I don't see a substantial difference. US-Israel relations is one of those things like gun control that I've written off as a perpetual given and has no chance of ever changing minus a major change-up in the White House and/or the LBJ Strategy where they do a 180 as soon as they hit the Oval Office.
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Dec 24, 2015 22:12
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Killer robot posted:The central issue is the usual one: progress is the enemy of activism. Or at least acknowledging progress is the enemy. Regardless of whether your actual cause is good or bad, "everything is getting worse we're all doomed unless we act!" is always a much more satisfying narrative for your struggle than "things are moving in the right direction so let's keep going!" I think, if anything, it has more to do with a general misunderstanding of what political progress actually means. It's not a ball that you get rolling and then leave to do its thing. Just because "things" (whatever those things are) are improving by whatever metric you want to use, doesn't mean that the future is going to be any easier. It doesn't even mean that whatever struggle it is you're fighting won't get harder. We've made an incredible amount of social progress over the last century, and yet we've still got cops beating the poo poo out of minorities in plain sight and some non-trivial segment of the population shrugging it off or trying desperately to justify why it's okay. People still argue that movements like BLM should be ignored because they aren't being polite enough. And economic concerns are even harder to break down into simple terms. Like, there's not some great struggle for economic equality that's going to suddenly shift in one direction. Just like social justice issues, it's only ever going to happen with constant, concerted political effort. People don't want to hear that, though, so instead it's just "don't worry, things are getting better!" or "it doesn't matter, we're all hosed anyway."
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Dec 24, 2015 22:22
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Dec 24, 2015 23:12
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Also at least some of the children to be deported are literally named Jesus, probably
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Dec 24, 2015 23:14
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Your Dunkle Sans posted:Why on earth did Kentuckians elect Bevin to office? He just seems to be a cavalcade of terrible for basically everyone including the Republican base. The best* part is all the people who voted for him hoping he doesn't do exactly what he campaigned to do re: medicaid expansion *best= 
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Dec 24, 2015 23:17
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hangedman1984 posted:The best* part is all the people who voted for him hoping he doesn't do exactly what he campaigned to do re: medicaid expansion "No I don't have Obamacare, I have Kynect!" -a thing multiple people have said in response to 'why did you vote for him?'
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Dec 24, 2015 23:20
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But the Jesus death gang birth story was concocted too.
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Dec 24, 2015 23:21
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Relentless posted:That is the nonapology I've come to know and love from Idaho governmental offices. This is a good idea. According to Wikipedia, Butch Otter was pulled over for a DUI and gave an excuse about how he puts whiskey in his chew for flavor. He's also a poo poo gently caress corrupt rear end in a top hat who smokes Simplot's dick for campaign contributions.
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Dec 24, 2015 23:24
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O'Malley be throwin them sharp twitter elbows.
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Dec 24, 2015 23:24
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