SuperMechagodzilla posted:Awakens isn't good because it doesn't tell the story visually. That's something that Star Wars had never previously failed at. This isn't anywhere in the movie. I think that while your critique is true in the sense that Awakens can't function as a silent film with score, unlike the previous movies, I feel that you're also making the mistake many people do with the prequels, wherein we take everything at face value, ignore the contradictions, and conclude that the movie must therefore be a stupid one. That is, when we see the Republic, it's a bunch of rich people at a soiree. Luke attempts to rebuild the Jedi of the prequels, and fails. The First Order and Resistance are playacting at being the Empire and Rebellion. Han fails to connect with his son by demanding that his son come with him and follow him. Clearly, the movie is stupid/bad. The movie does tell you where the First Order comes from, though. It exists because of Jakku. People are poor and desperate, and the Republic doesn't care or do anything.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 01:12 |
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:but expository dialogue tells us right away, leading me to suspect reshoots. This is how I can tell SMG is struggling to actually criticize this film. He's actually arguing that something in the film is the result of production problems and not intentional.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:10
|
|
|
Cnut the Great posted:Bug-Head C-3PO owns. Dude must be seriously skilled if he's good enough to be on Darth Vader's speed dial despite possessing a body whose limbs can't bend at the joints more than a few degrees. The fun thing is that most of the bounty hunters are wearing modified versions of previously used costumes. Dengar has repainted Sandtrooper armor. Bossk's suit and rubber mask were both previously seen in the cantina. IG-88 was literally built out of parts of the bar. It implies that the gang has mostly scavenged their possessions off old bounties.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:14
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:The movie does tell you where the First Order comes from, though. It exists because of Jakku. People are poor and desperate, and the Republic doesn't care or do anything. The Republic doesn't really exist in any form outside of a 2 minute window. Some of this is due to cut content, but as far as we're concerned there's the Resistance and the not-Empire. Contrast this with TPM, when you have the avatars of the Republic descend upon Tatooine, and they explicitly contrast the life they know from the one on the desert world (eg, expecting Republic Credits to work, being surprised that Slavery still exists, etc).
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:17
|
|
computer parts posted:The Republic doesn't really exist in any form outside of a 2 minute window. Some of this is due to cut content, but as far as we're concerned there's the Resistance and the not-Empire. Contrast this with TPM, when you have the avatars of the Republic descend upon Tatooine, and they explicitly contrast the life they know from the one on the desert world (eg, expecting Republic Credits to work, being surprised that Slavery still exists, etc). The one shot we get of the Republic shows that it's a bunch of rich people partying. Contrarily, Finn associates returning to Jakku with returning to the First Order. Jakku is a planet of scavengers and refugees where everyone goes around armed. Hux(ster)'s speech begins by declaring that the Republic tolerates disorder and so must be destroyed. Jakku is made up out of the remains of the previous movies. The First Order is made up out of kitbashed remnants of the previous movies. Of course, so is the Resistance.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:21
|
|
|
Careful, guys. In arguing against SMG on this one, you might be falling for his reverse psychology and actually end up reading the film for yourselves, for once.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:35
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:The one shot we get of the Republic shows that it's a bunch of rich people partying. Contrarily, Finn associates returning to Jakku with returning to the First Order. Jakku is a planet of scavengers and refugees where everyone goes around armed. Hux(ster)'s speech begins by declaring that the Republic tolerates disorder and so must be destroyed. Jakku is made up out of the remains of the previous movies. The First Order is made up out of kitbashed remnants of the previous movies. Of course, so is the Resistance. When are we shown "rich people partying" at any point?
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:36
|
|
jivjov posted:When are we shown "rich people partying" at any point? When the Republic capital is destroyed, we're shown a group of people at a soiree on a balcony on one of the taller buildings. From real life and the previous movies, we can infer that they are part of the Republic's elites- the upper class, the fleet, the politicians. We are not shown average people getting blown up- we are shown average people watching it happen.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:38
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:When the Republic capital is destroyed, we're shown a group of people at a soiree on a balcony on one of the taller buildings. From real life and the previous movies, we can infer that they are part of the Republic's elites- the upper class, the fleet, the politicians. We are not shown average people getting blown up- we are shown average people watching it happen. We never see them "partying" though. The senate government runs out on the balcony to see "what the hell is this red beam coming right at us". There's no evidence of a party of any kind.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:40
|
|
|
EX-GAIJIN AT LAST posted:Careful, guys. In arguing against SMG on this one, you might be falling for his reverse psychology and actually end up reading the film for yourselves, for once. That's impossible, as his is the only valid reading, especially the parts he made up.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:41
|
|
jivjov posted:We never see them "partying" though. The senate government runs out on the balcony to see "what the hell is this red beam coming right at us". There's no evidence of a party of any kind. You're reading that into the movie. It's actually far more consistent they're at a dinner party, and I'm sure that when the DVD comes out I'll be able to MSpaint circles around drinks in their hands or tables in the background.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:42
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:You're reading that into the movie. It's actually far more consistent they're at a dinner party, and I'm sure that when the DVD comes out I'll be able to MSpaint circles around drinks in their hands or tables in the background. Admittedly the specific knowledge that it's leia's aide and the current republic chancellor on the balcony comes from the novelization; but I've seen the film 5 times now, there is no evidence of any sort of party.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:44
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:You're reading that into the movie. It's actually far more consistent they're at a dinner party, and I'm sure that when the DVD comes out I'll be able to MSpaint circles around drinks in their hands or tables in the background. To be fair I believe someone has stated that (as filmed) scene is actually a senate meeting where Leia's aid is trying to bring evidence of the First Order having a superweapon to the Senate and then they get nuked before they can act. That does not necessarily mean much since that isn't how the shot is in the film but it is at least viable to read it as not being a party as it is to read it as one.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:46
|
|
ImpAtom posted:To be fair I believe someone has stated that (as filmed) scene is actually a senate meeting where Leia's aid is trying to bring evidence of the First Order having a superweapon to the Senate and then they get nuked before they can act. That does not necessarily mean much since that isn't how the shot is in the film. Well, I'll gleefully concede that as a fairly stupid intention on the part of the director.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:47
|
|
|
Yeah; the only real thing still in the film-as-presented is leia's aide gets a moment of camera focus and you can clearly see the Resistance badge on her chest.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:49
|
|
|
jivjov posted:Admittedly the specific knowledge that it's leia's aide and the current republic chancellor on the balcony comes from the novelization; but I've seen the film 5 times now, there is no evidence of any sort of party.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:52
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:That's impossible, as his is the only valid reading, especially the parts he made up. If you want to respond to the guy's post, respond to it. I don't get the point of a post like this.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:53
|
|
|
wyoak posted:I've only seen it once but I got the impression that it was a party. At the very least its apparent wealth stands in contrast to the worlds we'd seen onscreen so far. Oh I don't deny that it's a much 'nicer' looking world. Cities and buildings and lights; a stark contrast to junkyard Jakku and forest-and-river Takodana. On my first viewing, until Poe calls it the Hosnian system, I thought they had blown up Coruscant.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:56
|
|
|
There's something interesting about the First Order destroying "Coruscant" (an ecumenopolis that reminds us of Coruscant, to be precise) and the Republic when the Empire was a continuation of the Republic and centered on Coruscant.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:56
|
|
|
I genuinely wonder why they didn't blow up Coruscant. A lot of people seem to have assumed it was Coruscant anyway and blowing up Coruscant would have at least given it somewhat of a cheap emotional thrill for the place you recognize being nuked.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:59
|
|
|
Baron Porkface posted:Is TFA the first movie to feature a beholder-type monster? 
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 18:59
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I genuinely wonder why they didn't blow up Coruscant. A lot of people seem to have assumed it was Coruscant anyway and blowing up Coruscant would have at least given it somewhat of a cheap emotional thrill for the place you recognize being nuked. So they can keep Coruscant around for Episode XXIII. And I guess so that they can break away from featuring any planets that have appeared before.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 19:01
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:So they can keep Coruscant around for Episode XXIII. And I guess so that they can break away from featuring any planets that have appeared before. I do wonder if it was a late decision to make it Hosnian Prime instead of Coruscant..."keeping it around for later" might be important if finding old Jedi temples is a plot point that will carry through VIII/IX
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 19:05
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:So they can keep Coruscant around for Episode XXIII. And I guess so that they can break away from featuring any planets that have appeared before. Yeah, 'keeping it around' makes sense. They were pretty careful to avoid breaking any of their old toys. Except Han, of course.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 19:07
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I genuinely wonder why they didn't blow up Coruscant. A lot of people seem to have assumed it was Coruscant anyway and blowing up Coruscant would have at least given it somewhat of a cheap emotional thrill for the place you recognize being nuked. It's likely because they want to use it for the future, but I heard one podcast theorizing that, if JJ had blown up Coruscant, people would have read that as the largest refutation of the prequels yet. "He blew up the most major planet from the prequels! He's wiping out the prequels" or whatever. And that maybe he wanted to avoid that (as this movie avoided almost everything from the prequels), because it would probably have been one of the main topics of conversation. An interesting thought, but it's probably because they have plans for Coruscant in futures movies or books.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 19:15
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:Awakens isn't good because it doesn't tell the story visually. That's something that Star Wars had never previously failed at. Earlier in the thread, I posted that the politics make very little sense despite being an important part of the story. After a second viewing, that complaint is gone. The gaps in my understanding were filled in by focusing on the visuals of the film instead of being preoccupied with the dialog and plot. jivjov posted:We never see them "partying" though. The senate government runs out on the balcony to see "what the hell is this red beam coming right at us". There's no evidence of a party of any kind.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 19:15
|
|
|
SMg I wondered if you had any insight into the mask imagery present in the movie. Both Finn and Rey start out wearing masks that don't represent who they truly are: Finn isn't really a storm trooper and Rey is more than a lowly scavenger. They shed these masks pretty quickly and flee from their former lives; Finn in particular literally has an entire new identity crafted for him by Poe Dameron (Poe names him and gives him his signature jacket; and Finn even basically adopts Poe's identity as a "big deal" in the Resistance for awhile). Kylo Ren (who I would argue is basically a third main character) also wears a mask but takes it off at several points making him more vulnerable. I know you've commented on how Anakin putting on the mask at the end of RotS turns him fully into the symbol Darth Vader at which point he is more powerful than the human Anakin Skywalker, and this imagery also seems to carry into this movie with Ren - every time he sheds the mask he is then defeated in some manner (first Rey resists him, then Han Solo causes him to further doubt himself, then Rey defeats him in the forest). I was wondering if you noticed anything else I may have missed - I notice this stuff sometimes but have a hard time putting it into a coherent reading.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 19:15
|
|
|
thrawn527 posted:It's likely because they want to use it for the future, but I heard one podcast theorizing that, if JJ had blown up Coruscant, people would have read that as the largest refutation of the prequels yet. "He blew up the most major planet from the prequels!" And that maybe he wanted to avoid that (as this movie avoided almost everything from the prequels), because it would probably have been one of the main topics of conversation. That is actually a really good point. I didn't even think of it but "see! He blew up the planet from Episode 1!" would absolutely have been read as a gently caress-you to the prequels regardless of how it was intended.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 19:16
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:That is actually a really good point. I didn't even think of it but "see! He blew up the planet from Episode 1!" would absolutely have been read as a gently caress-you to the prequels regardless of how it was intended. There's already a militant group that has decided to interpret Kylo Ren's birth name of Ben is a direct attack on Legends EU fans
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 19:22
|
|
|
The interesting things (especially to viewers familiar with Star Wars, but I'd have to imagine even to newbies) all happen offscreen before the movie even starts. The end of ep 6 (and much of the imagery on Jakku) establishes that the empire should be in ruins, but the First Order is immediately presented as the most powerful threat in the galaxy. Luke left for some reason that is probably important and now he's a deus ex machina I guess. Ren is alienated for what we have to assume is another important reason. Han and Chewie reset to where they were pre-episode 4. Finn already has his doubts about being a stormtrooper (and will finish his arc within the first 20 minutes of the movie or so). I get that they didn't want to make Return of the Jedi Part 2, so moving the story forward offscreen isn't a bad idea in itself, but then nothing of real significance actually happens during the movie (beyond hitting the major story beats of episode 4). The Republic is apparently destroyed, but we only see them onscreen for under a minute and have zero allegiance to them anyway, our allegiance is with Leia and the resistance (which is a weird label for a group that was allied with the ruling majority, but anyway). The First Order is left in tatters, but we only just met them and are shown that they were never the real threat anyway. Ren jukes for 45 seconds or so but ends exactly where he was when the movie began. Rey's the only character that moves anywhere, which is good since it turns out that she's the protagonist, but it all seems so rushed since we have to spend so much time with Finn and Poe and BB-8 and Han and Chewie and Leia and nostalgic coincidences. Still, moment-to-moment, it felt like Star Wars in a way the prequels didn't - maybe because of that rapid pacing, maybe because the actors actually seem to be having some fun, maybe because there are no midichlorians, maybe because Harrison Ford is a national treasure. wyoak fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Dec 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 19:37
|
|
|
I think skipping all of those details is one of the reason it feels so much "like Star Wars". It's a new trilogy, so like Episode IV, we join in the middle of things. In media res. One of my co-workers said he was struggling with TFA because he feels like this should have been "the next movie", but that he needed this movie to cover all of the stuff they just mention in between. And I told him that, just like Episode IV has us join a galaxy already at war for reasons we don't understand, we rejoin it in the middle of a new war, with new stories already underway. Asking for answers to what brought us to this point brings us to a place where we demand the prequels.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 19:41
|
|
|
thrawn527 posted:I think skipping all of those details is one of the reason it feels so much "like Star Wars". It's a new trilogy, so like Episode IV, we join in the middle of things. In media res. One of my co-workers said he was struggling with TFA because he feels like this should have been "the next movie", but that he needed this movie to cover all of the stuff they just mention in between. And I told him that, just like Episode IV has us join a galaxy already at war for reasons we don't understand, we rejoin it in the middle of a new war, with new stories already underway. Asking for answers to what brought us to this point brings us to a place where we demand the prequels.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 19:44
|
|
|
My greatest complaint with the TFA, aside from the various plot holes, is that the grandeur of space is lost. There's way too many "coincidences", and characters travel instantaneously from planet to planet in mere moments even in rickety rust buckets.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 20:02
|
|
Rated PG-34 posted:My greatest complaint with the TFA, aside from the various plot holes, is that the grandeur of space is lost. There's way too many "coincidences", and characters travel instantaneously from planet to planet in mere moments even in rickety rust buckets. The grandeur of space was lost back in 1977.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 20:03
|
|
|
Rated PG-34 posted:My greatest complaint with the TFA, aside from the various plot holes, is that the grandeur of space is lost. There's way too many "coincidences", and characters travel instantaneously from planet to planet in mere moments even in rickety rust buckets. This got brought up earlier in the thread; but nowhere in Star Wars is travel time ever really presented as a concern. The only exception is when Han and Leia have to limp to Bespin with no hyperdrive. Otherwise all travel happens precisely at the speed of plot.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 20:04
|
|
|
Rated PG-34 posted:My greatest complaint with the TFA, aside from the various plot holes, is that the grandeur of space is lost. There's way too many "coincidences", and characters travel instantaneously from planet to planet in mere moments even in rickety rust buckets. So just like Star Wars then.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 20:05
|
|
|
Actually, rewatching it there's not that much jumping from point A to point B, at least relative to the other films. You get your one scene in Hyperspace (when they see the map for the first time), and then it's just forest planet -> Resistance Base, more or less. It's a little weird because Starkiller Base isn't next to the Rebels like the original Death Star was, but that's really the only thing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 20:06
|
|
|
Rated PG-34 posted:My greatest complaint with the TFA, aside from the various plot holes, is that the grandeur of space is lost. There's way too many "coincidences", and characters travel instantaneously from planet to planet in mere moments even in rickety rust buckets. I've seen the "instant" hyperspace mentioned, and it does appear to happen a few times, if you want to treat it that way. The trip to Takodana however was shown to take time. They had scenes on the Falcon set during this trip while they were travelling though hyperspace.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 20:06
|
|
|
jivjov posted:There's already a militant group that has decided to interpret Kylo Ren's birth name of Ben is a direct attack on Legends EU fans I just figured Lawrence Kasdan is a goon and a huge fan of Manos: The Hands of Fate.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 20:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 01:12 |
|
|
jivjov posted:When does Leia ever try to "restore the monarchy"? She pretty clearly has completely replaced the title "princess" with "general" We are told that the Resistance and the Republic are not the same thing - that the Resistance are a small independent group that is working to restore the Jedi Knights and eliminate all the residual traces of Imperial influence from the (New) Republic. Maz tells us that the resistance considers The Sith, The Empire and The New Order completely identical. They practically worship Luke Skywalker as a god/prophet who will bring Light to the universe. And they're down with this because they see themselves as the Light. Awfully presumptuous, right? Remember how Count Dooku was a Jedi who rejected the republic, because he was hoping to eliminate the Sith 'from the inside'? He did that because he's a count. It's feudalism. All the resistance people call Leia but The General, while repeatedly slipping up and calling her 'princess' (as both C3PO and Max Von Sydow do). 'She's royalty to me', and so-on. This exactly the case with Naboo, where they have an elected leader who is nonetheless 'royalty to them'. The Resistance are Dooku. They, like he, stand for everything Luke believed in as a child: holy knights rescuing noblemen, etc. You have kings, and peasants. The Republic does not support those things - they do not care about the Jedi. They do not care about princesses and queens. They do not have a strong stance on 'the force'. They only support the Resistance because it's convenient to their goal of maintaining a liberal democracy. The Resistance are ideologically opposed to them, but allowed to live because they are nonthreatening. The word choice is very important: the Resistance are not a rebelllion, and - crucially - not a revolution. They perceive themselves as resisting something 'from outside'. What we see of The New Order is essentially their fantasy of people of all cultures being reduced to numbered drones, and so-on. But isn't this precisely a nightmare vision of the multicultural Republic itself? What we have is a sort of mutual parasitism where the Resistance impotently pushes the Republic's liberal-democratic state to 'do the right thing' from the sidelines, while the Republic has a bunch of useful idiots who will never attempt to seize power. (In that sense, it's true that Leia doesn't actually try to restore the monarcy. She merely promises to.). So we're back to all the previous Star Wars films, where Alderaan and the Death Star are the same world, as seen from different perspectives. The Empire is the republic without the pretense. We were the bad guys all along. Only Vader has a way out, and Ren is the only character in the film to support Vader.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2015 20:17
|
|
