SuperMechagodzilla posted:We are told that the Resistance and the Republic are not the same thing - that the Resistance are a small independent group that is working to restore the Jedi Knights and eliminate all the residual traces of Imperial influence from the (New) Republic. Maz tells us that the resistance considers The Sith, The Empire and The New Order completely identical. They practically worship Luke Skywalker as a god/prophet who will bring Light to the universe. And they're down with this because they see themselves as the Light. Awfully presumptuous, right? The Resistance are terrorists established by the Republic to protect itself without violating its principles of liberal democracy. They repeatedly fail to address Carrie Fisher by her proper title because they are unable to adopt a truly radical position free of princesses. But they have no interest in "restoring the monarchy" because they are fundamentally reactive. This is attempting to force the movie into your preconceptions about how the Rebels were trying to restore the monarchy all along.
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Dec 29, 2015 20:22
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:We are told that the Resistance and the Republic are not the same thing - that the Resistance are a small independent group that is working to restore the Jedi Knights and eliminate all the residual traces of Imperial influence from the (New) Republic. Maz tells us that the resistance considers The Sith, The Empire and The New Order completely identical. They practically worship Luke Skywalker as a god/prophet who will bring Light to the universe. And they're down with this because they see themselves as the Light. Awfully presumptuous, right? Gonna address a couple of your more egregious points here: Dooku is clearly shown to be full of poo poo. He was never "tying to destroy the Sith from the inside". The whole "he's a political idealist not a murderer" is demonstrated to be complete BS. Lore San Tekka is fondly reminiscing about the good ol' days when he refers to Leia as "royalty to me". there's no implication there that she's trying to set herself up back as royalty or that Tekka wants her to. Maz never says that The Resistance sees the Sith/Empire/First Order as the same. She says that they are all the enemy. They are all evolutions on a theme. But she never mentions what exactly the resistance thinks of all those groups. And if you really think that the Death Star and Alderaan are the same world...you have a fundamentally flawed copy of A New Hope. One destroys the other. Even thematically they are polar opposites. One has no weapons, the other is nothing but weapons. Edit: and I'll address c3po too. He's always portrayed as a forgetful character who is left out of the loop. He forgets to turn on the com link, he gets his memory wiped, etc. His references to Leia as "princess" are indicative of his faulty memory and personality quirks. jivjov fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 20:39
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quote:Lore San Tekka is fondly reminiscing about the good ol' days when he refers to Leia as "royalty to me". there's no implication there that she's trying to set herself up back as royalty or that Tekka wants her to. I got the impression that the guy knew Leia when she was younger. quote:Maz never says that The Resistance sees the Sith/Empire/First Order as the same. She says that they are all the enemy. She refers to them as various forms the dark side/darkness takes iirc.
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Dec 29, 2015 20:52
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RBA Starblade posted:I got the impression that the guy knew Leia when she was younger. Exactly. Tekka knew her when she was a princess; when there was an Alderaan to be the princess of. Not that he's expecting her to set up a new monarchy
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Dec 29, 2015 20:54
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turtlecrunch posted:
Man that pit right in front of the door is a gigantic space OSHA violation. There's no railing, there's not even hazard paint!
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Dec 29, 2015 21:03
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Effectronica posted:The Resistance are terrorists established by the Republic to protect itself without violating its principles of liberal democracy. They repeatedly fail to address Carrie Fisher by her proper title because they are unable to adopt a truly radical position free of princesses. But they have no interest in "restoring the monarchy" because they are fundamentally reactive. This is attempting to force the movie into your preconceptions about how the Rebels were trying to restore the monarchy all along. There's no indication that the Republic created the resistance. It is more that Leia split off and did her own thing, banking on the support of those she put into power. Leia's explicit/intentional goal is 'merely' to get her family back, but that's a lure. It's very important that 'restoring her family' involves recreating the Order of Jedi Knights while fighting 'State Power' in the abstract. It's Max Von Sydow who tells us her real motivations. There is nothing in the film besides this stuff about knights, princesses, and heredity. jivjov posted:Gonna address a couple of your more egregious points here: Dooku is clearly shown to be full of poo poo. He was never "tying to destroy the Sith from the inside". The whole "he's a political idealist not a murderer" is demonstrated to be complete BS. The error comes when people ignore what characters do, in favor of what they say and what is said about them. Dooku is a count. He's hella rich. He attempts to recruit Obi Wan by telling him the (half)truth: the Republic is corrupted because Palpatine is a Sith Lord. The entire point is that he's trying to recruit Obiwan so that they can kill Palpatine together. It's exactly the same as in Empire Strikes Back, except Obiwan doesn't search his feelings and see that it is true. Lucas presents Dooku as bad, of course, because Lucas is not a feudalist. Lucas thinks noblemen are poo poo (dookie). Abrams, evidently, does not. The rest of your post is just trivializing the writing with dull literalism. 'Oh, C3PO is just forgetful. It doesn't mean anything.' That's called "characterization" and it's absolutely meaningful. C3PO has always tried to ingratiate himself with those in power as a survival mechanism. He's haughty and aristocratic, demeaning those 'beneath' him while sucking up to those 'above' - and, notably, his usual foil is
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Dec 29, 2015 21:05
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I am looking at what Dooku does. He works with Palpatine; gleefully. At no point is he ever shown to say OR do anything to imply he's working to destroy the Sith from the inside. And yeah, 3po's characterization is that he's nostalgic and forgetful and seeks to ingratiate himself. Him slipping and falling Leia "princess", again, in no way expresses that Leia is "seeking to rebuild the monarchy"
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Dec 29, 2015 21:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:There's no indication that the Republic created the resistance. It is more that Leia split off and did her own thing, banking on the support of those she put into power. Leia's explicit/intentional goal is 'merely' to get her family back, but that's a lure. It's very important that 'restoring her family' involves recreating the Order of Jedi Knights while fighting 'State Power' in the abstract. It's Max Von Sydow who tells us her real motivations. Except for the opening crawl, which establishes the relationship as the Republic creating the Resistance. Now, we can disregard it, but we can also disregard everything else in the film too. And, of course, a film which contrasts an adopted, supportive child with a "natural", patricidal child (twice) is very concerned with congenital heredity.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:09
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Arglebargle III posted:Man that pit right in front of the door is a gigantic space OSHA violation. There's no railing, there's not even hazard paint! pretty sure imperial OSHA has a mandatory 'pits (bottom not required) per cubic metre' required ratio of 1:58, actually.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:11
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Effectronica posted:Except for the opening crawl, which establishes the relationship as the Republic creating the Resistance. Now, we can disregard it, but we can also disregard everything else in the film too. The opening crawl is the following: quote:Episode VII Nothing about the Republic creating the Resistance, just them supporting it (and Leia).
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Dec 29, 2015 21:13
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computer parts posted:The opening crawl is the following: Well, I misremembered it, then. Thank you.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:14
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The novelization expands on the Resistance/Republic relationship; Leia is frustrated that the Republic refuses to do anything about the impending threat of the first order and spins off into the Resistance to stop them. Once again; not a monarchy. Just a response to a threat.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:16
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The resistance is literally the space-mujahideen and the wider conflict in TFA is basically 80's Afghanistan, cold war-style proxy fighting. What's weird is that this situation appears to have happened by accident, as a result of Abrams and co. trying to simultaneously maintain the status quo of the original series while also trying to not invalidate the rebellion-vs-empire arc by implying that nothing has improved in the last 30 years.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:30
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jivjov posted:I am looking at what Dooku does. He works with Palpatine; gleefully. At no point is he ever shown to say OR do anything to imply he's working to destroy the Sith from the inside. The character's not 'gleeful' at all. Also, he's a nobleman Jedi who tries to recruit Obiwan in a battle against the Sith and the Republic: Count Dooku: You must join me, Obi-Wan, and together we will destroy the Sith! In the original, alternate version of the scene, Dooku attempts to recruit Padme: Count Dooku: Senator, the Republic cannot be fixed. It is time to start over. The democratic process in the Republic is a sham, a shell game played on the voters. It will not be long before the cult of greed, called the Republic, will lose even the pretext of democracy and freedom. Padme then calls him out on his profit motive, but it doesn't change the fact that Dooku is right. This scene was replaced in the final cut with a new one, where Dooku attempts to recruit Obiwan: Count Dooku: [Quigon Jinn] knew all about the corruptions of the Senate, but he would never have gone along with it if he had known the truth as I have. What if I told you that the Republic is now under the control of a Dark Lord of the Sith? Obi-Wan Kenobi: No, that's not possible! The Jedi would be aware it! Count Dooku: The Dark Side of the Force has clouded their vision, my friend. Hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious. Obi-Wan Kenobi: I don't believe you. Count Dooku: The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious, but he was betrayed ten years ago by the Dark Lord. He came to me for help; he told me everything. You must join me, Obi-Wan, and together we will destroy the Sith! Obi-Wan Kenobi: I will never join you, Dooku. This is pretty much an exact repeat of Empire Strikes Back, but with a different power dynamic. They're both telling the truth, but - unlike Vader - Dooku is in it for the money.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:33
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Dooku directly works for Sidious and doors his bidding like all the time though. He's telling the truth that Sidious runs things, but lying that he wants to destroy him.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:36
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greatn posted:Dooku directly works for Sidious and doors his bidding like all the time though. He's telling the truth that Sidious runs things, but lying that he wants to destroy him. Dooku works with Sidious because it furthers his plans and also because he fears his power, but he does fully intend to destroy him. This is something that he states multiple times in the Clone Wars cartoon, and is his reason for trying to convince Obi-wan to join him and for recruiting various apprentices such as Asajj Ventress. Alone he is too weak to challenge Sidious but if he had someone backing him up, he might have a chance.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:43
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greatn posted:Dooku directly works for Sidious and doors his bidding like all the time though. He's telling the truth that Sidious runs things, but lying that he wants to destroy him. Vader also does Palpatine's bidding all the time, and he is not lying to Luke. Dooku plans to doublecross Palpatine eventually, but Palpatine predicts what will happen and has Dooku assassinated.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:44
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The flashback scene was so vague that I had initially assumed it was a premonition. The film was very vanilla in a lot of ways but the flashback was the most interesting element, that the past and future could penetrate the present, but stopped short of using this to make a radical statement they way Lucas did with the special editions. Follow this time-image to it's radical conclusion, include past scenes from the PT and OT but altered (confusing "canon"), depict images from future films that end up altered. edit: A great example of what I mean: mr. stefan posted:The resistance is literally the space-mujahideen and the wider conflict in TFA is basically 80's Afghanistan, cold war-style proxy fighting. What's weird is that this situation appears to have happened by accident, as a result of Abrams and co. trying to simultaneously maintain the status quo of the original series while also trying to not invalidate the rebellion-vs-empire arc by implying that nothing has improved in the last 30 years. mirroring the original films depiction of the North Vietnamese as a sympathetic rebellion. Danger fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 21:47
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The planetary locations in this movie were, for the most part, very derivative and boring. A lot of standing around in forests. We already went to the forest in Return of the Jedi. I could barely tell the difference between Takodana and D'Qar. In Star Wars terms, they're both just the Green Planet, which is a pretty big problem. This is exactly what I predicted would happen. Disney and J.J. were so afraid of using CGI/greenscreen that a good portion of the worlds in the movie ended up either being repeats or else being quite visually indistinct from each other. Lucas wasn't kidding when he said he'd pretty much used up all the real-world locations that could double as interesting alien environments by the end of the OT. But Star Wars is all about making it seem like the action is taking place on Earth now, apparently. At least I really feel like I'm on Earth, though, right? That's what's important.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:55
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Cnut the Great posted:The planetary locations in this movie were, for the most part, very derivative and boring. A lot of standing around in forests. We already went to the forest in Return of the Jedi. I could barely tell the difference between Takodana and D'Qar. In Star Wars terms, they're both just the Green Planet, which is a pretty big problem. What was your general opinion of the movie? Yours is one of the takes I was most interested in seeing.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:57
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In what way was Disney "afraid of using CGI/greenscreen?" Last I looked, we can't actually film dozens of X-Wings and TIEs duking it out in the fashion we see in the film, or super weapons firing across space, or bizarre vision sequences. And why is it so unbelievable that the Star Wars Galaxy has more than one forest and more than one desert?
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Dec 29, 2015 21:58
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Cnut the Great posted:The planetary locations in this movie were, for the most part, very derivative and boring. A lot of standing around in forests. We already went to the forest in Return of the Jedi. I could barely tell the difference between Takodana and D'Qar. In Star Wars terms, they're both just the Green Planet, which is a pretty big problem. Well, I think there's also some slavishness here. Endor, Yavin, and Dagobah are all distinct Green Planets, but if Resistance HQ and Bar Planet were visually distinct, we'd have four planets. Having a mix of Barren and Green Planets on top of Metal Planet was already pushing it! But yeah, for all I could tell, the Resistance could have just been on the other side of Planet Cantina.
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Dec 29, 2015 21:58
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Beeez posted:What was your general opinion of the movie? Yours is one of the takes I was most interested in seeing. Oh. Well, I enjoyed it. I feel like I got my money's worth. That's the problem though: I feel like I paid for something and I got it. It's the same feeling I got with Jurassic World, which I also enjoyed when I saw it. But I'm kind of looking for more than that sort of thing when it comes to Star Wars. I haven't really been harping on my issues with the movie too much on here because I know I'll just come across as being predictably contrarian about it. I've only seen it once, though. Maybe there's a lot of cool stuff in the movie I missed on first watch.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:01
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Cnut the Great posted:Oh. Well, I enjoyed it. I feel like I got my money's worth. That's the problem though: I feel like I paid for something and I got it. It's the same feeling I got with Jurassic World, which I also enjoyed when I saw it. But I'm kind of looking for more than that sort of thing when it comes to Star Wars. I feel you, though I'd be interested in seeing your criticisms eventually.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:09
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Cnut the Great posted:The planetary locations in this movie were, for the most part, very derivative and boring. A lot of standing around in forests. We already went to the forest in Return of the Jedi. I could barely tell the difference between Takodana and D'Qar. In Star Wars terms, they're both just the Green Planet, which is a pretty big problem. This is basically A New Hope's point that there is only one planet, seen through different perspectives. If you're hopeless, you perceive the world as an infinite desert. When the utopia fails, it appears as a machine hell. A lush jungle becomes a frozen wasteland, etc. Force Awakens takes this to such an extreme that it is almost literal: you have a single generic forest planet where trees grow from the sand and then freeze, according to the fluctuating power of the sun. Danger posted:The film was very vanilla in a lot of ways but the flashback was the most interesting element, that the past and future could penetrate the present, but stopped short of using this to make a radical statement they way Lucas did with the special editions. Follow this time-image to it's radical conclusion, include past scenes from the PT and OT but altered (confusing "canon"), depict images from future films that end up altered. I honestly wish the film had all the 'gently caress the prequels, nuke Corsucant, put Jar Jar's skeleton in the background' stuff. That would be something, at least.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:16
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jivjov posted:In what way was Disney "afraid of using CGI/greenscreen?" Last I looked, we can't actually film dozens of X-Wings and TIEs duking it out in the fashion we see in the film, or super weapons firing across space, or bizarre vision sequences. Well, clearly, they had to use CGI for that kind of stuff because it would be impossible not to (unless they wanted to go back to motion-control cameras and models, which not even Disney is crazy enough to want to do). The movie isn't zealously CGI-phobic or anything, obviously. But it seems like the creative process for this movie was probably something like "Let's scout some real-world locations and see which ones look the coolest" -- whereas for the prequels, it was "Let's come up with some cool planetary locations, and then figure out how to create them." I know a lot of people genuinely think the former method is superior. But I think we're at the point in cinema now where we shouldn't have to do that anymore if we don't want to. I guess I have to give J.J. and co. the benefit of the doubt and assume they genuinely wanted to, though. Lucas was also never afraid of using digital technology to radically tamper with the lighting and coloring of a scene until he got the exact look he wanted, treating every scene basically as if it were just the first draft of a painting on canvas. But J.J., as he has emphasized himself many times in interviews, seems to still be very attached to the idea of using natural light whenever humanly possible. Which perhaps does give everything a more natural, realistic look--but it's also a more mundane, and less romantic look. For obvious reasons, it all just feels like Earth. I personally don't think that's what Star Wars is all about. But again, this wasn't incompetence on anybody's part. I know it's exactly what they wanted. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 22:17
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I'm pretty mad they didn't use any wipes for transitions, actually.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:21
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Effectronica posted:I'm pretty mad they didn't use any wipes for transitions, actually. This is the only thing I was legitimately annoyed by in a fannish kind of way.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:22
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:This is the only thing I was legitimately annoyed by in a fannish kind of way. I mean, they went as far as making all the main characters have real-world names with space spellings (Finn, Ray, Kyle..), but they can't do one goddamn wipe?
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Dec 29, 2015 22:23
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There were many wipe transitions. Generally to and from stuff set in space. There just weren't as many wipes as the prequels.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:24
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I honestly wish the film had all the 'gently caress the prequels, nuke Corsucant, put Jar Jar's skeleton in the background' stuff. That would be something, at least. I thought you said it was decent?
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Dec 29, 2015 22:24
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There absolutely were wipes unless I'm misunderstanding you.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:25
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I clearly remember the wipes because I had my epiphany about wipes while watching this movie
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Dec 29, 2015 22:25
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ImpAtom posted:There absolutely were wipes unless I'm misunderstanding you. They used them on space shots, I guess? Well, I was hoping for big, visible ones like the slow wipes on Tatooine in ANH.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:26
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They're there but not conspicuous at all.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:28
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I really liked that circle wipe that came out of a plume of smoke.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:30
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Yaws posted:I thought you said it was decent? It is, in the sense of 'conforming to standards'.
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Dec 29, 2015 22:31
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Am I remembering wrong or isn't the Enya video part at the end close on an iris out?
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Dec 29, 2015 22:31
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I honestly wish the film had all the 'gently caress the prequels, nuke Corsucant, put Jar Jar's skeleton in the background' stuff. That would be something, at least. The most interesting part is Alec Guinness and Ewan Mcgregor, speaking as one person, speaking to Rey while the past/future collapse into the present. With some outside infomormation for context you literally have Alec Guinness telling Rey that fear is her name and her path to freedom. The imagery accompanying would have been more compelling if had been presented the other way around then or perhaps continuing the statement later in the film: depicting the present giving way to the past and future (or perhaps the past/future violently invading the present instead of dissolving/resolving into it); the actual opening into the virtual. Danger fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Dec 29, 2015 |
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Dec 29, 2015 22:32
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Effectronica posted:I'm pretty mad they didn't use any wipes for transitions, actually. I'll bet you LOVED Battlefield Earth. I'm pretty sure there were wipes in TFA--I remember being pleased to see the tradition live on. And the Wilhelm scream. And somebody having a 'bad feeling about this'...
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