RPG Thread: SaGa Emeril Beyond

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Kanfy: Jan 9, 2012; Just gotta keep walking down that road.

Suikoden II is easily one of my favorite games of all time and also has one of my favorite soundtracks of all time. It's a shame Higashino stopped composing for video games soon afterwards, she did an insanely good job with that game especially considering how many different tracks there are in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WLyjRex0ac

# ? Jan 1, 2016 01:19

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 22:00

Nakar: Sep 2, 2002; Ultima Ratio Regum

Rascyc posted:

Not even Suikoden 2?

Suikoden 2 is not a very good game. It's not a bad game by any stretch of the imagination, but there's nothing special about it. Better to be competent and unremarkable than ambitious and broken/lovely, but viewed independent of nostalgia it's just alright.

# ? Jan 1, 2016 01:29

GulagDolls: Jun 4, 2011

murayama is good.

# ? Jan 1, 2016 01:30

Nakar: Sep 2, 2002; Ultima Ratio Regum

I think Chrono Trigger is a game that probably is a lot like Suikoden 2 in the sense that it's maybe not as good as people nostalgic for it remember, but it's eminently competent in its construction and so it stands the test of time, yet isn't so wildly innovative or stunningly original that it should be held out as notable. RPGs are kind of littered with flawed innovators so the occasional game that's just of its time and good at it stands out more than it perhaps deserves to.

# ? Jan 1, 2016 01:34

Francis: Jul 23, 2007; Thanks for the input, Jeff.

Nakar posted:

Suikoden 2 is not a very good game. It's not a bad game by any stretch of the imagination, but there's nothing special about it. Better to be competent and unremarkable than ambitious and broken/lovely, but viewed independent of nostalgia it's just alright.

obvious counterpoint: the luca blight fight

It's a competent vehicle for a well-told and interesting story, where the actual gameplay is unremarkable but also pretty breezy and neither adds nor detracts from the package. Narrative in games has progressed to a point that padding a game's story with some kind of combat is archaic and unnecessary, but it's still a great game by the standards of the time regardless of whether you have any nostalgia for it or not. (I played it for the first time last year.)

# ? Jan 1, 2016 01:40

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Nakar posted:

I think Chrono Trigger is a game that probably is a lot like Suikoden 2 in the sense that it's maybe not as good as people nostalgic for it remember, but it's eminently competent in its construction and so it stands the test of time, yet isn't so wildly innovative or stunningly original that it should be held out as notable. RPGs are kind of littered with flawed innovators so the occasional game that's just of its time and good at it stands out more than it perhaps deserves to.

suikoden 2 has way more inventive ideas than chrono trigger does, and is at least trying to be interesting

and honestly 'eminently competent' isn't how i'd describe suikoden 2

# ? Jan 1, 2016 01:42

Ruggington: Apr 21, 2012

Playing Suikoden 2 last year made me really bummed out that the trend of making rpg's with cool-rear end post-snes sprites didn't really catch on

# ? Jan 1, 2016 01:45

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Nakar posted:

I think Chrono Trigger is a game that probably is a lot like Suikoden 2 in the sense that it's maybe not as good as people nostalgic for it remember, but it's eminently competent in its construction and so it stands the test of time, yet isn't so wildly innovative or stunningly original that it should be held out as notable. RPGs are kind of littered with flawed innovators so the occasional game that's just of its time and good at it stands out more than it perhaps deserves to.

I think Chrono Trigger refines the basic JRPG mechanics to an incredible degree though. Battles are quick and fun, it teaches the player itself in a clever way, and it's just super charming. It doesn't do anything new, and its story doesn't have the depth of, say, FF6 (its big SNES competition), but it deserves the praise it gets. Chrono Trigger is really, really good at what it does.

# ? Jan 1, 2016 01:48

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Also it did a lot of cool things with multi-part bosses I didn't see imitated much until FFX.

# ? Jan 1, 2016 01:48

Ruggington: Apr 21, 2012

Chrono Trigger is a cool game that I like, but I do not think it is as good as everybody likes to say it is

thanks for listening

# ? Jan 1, 2016 01:54

Nakar: Sep 2, 2002; Ultima Ratio Regum

Francis posted:

It's a competent vehicle for a well-told and interesting story, where the actual gameplay is unremarkable but also pretty breezy and neither adds nor detracts from the package.

That's kind of what I mean, the game isn't getting in its own way like later games in the series do (except 5). That's good, but it's also not remarkable.

Endorph posted:

suikoden 2 has way more inventive ideas than chrono trigger does, and is at least trying to be interesting

and honestly 'eminently competent' isn't how i'd describe suikoden 2

They both seemed to be refining concepts that had been introduced in earlier games, and I wouldn't say either wasn't trying to be interesting. I'd say CT was also arguably a step forward for presentation which games like Suikoden 1&2 emulated but didn't massively improve upon. Better use of spritework variation in the story (the sprite-based JRPG equivalent of in-engine cutscenes, basically), interesting use of backgrounds and overlays.

Same idea with Radiant Historia, gameplay mechanics that have a few interesting ideas but mostly just refinement of earlier concepts, mixed in with a decent story to create a game that doesn't screw up the integration of play and the presentation of story. I'd put RH on a list of one of my favorite DS RPGs, perhaps even at #1, but that doesn't mean I necessarily think it was supremely well-done or innovative in an influential way or anything. And that's fine, it doesn't have to be.

But Suikoden 2 I'd consider lesser than both CT and RH, just because the gameplay isn't really as good. It's as easy as CT without being as brisk, the war system isn't as interesting as it could have been (and the challenge of it is questionable), and the sidequests are not as interesting.

# ? Jan 1, 2016 01:58

hubris.height: Jan 6, 2005; Pork Pro

Srice posted:

The sheer variety in puzzles really helps the pacing out.

the kick rear end soundtrack certainly helps

# ? Jan 1, 2016 02:20

BadAstronaut: Sep 15, 2004

hubris.height posted:

idgas about the waifu part but i saw a post with lufia 2 in it and empty quoted it because yeah

It's a fantastic game and I've not found anything quite like it in almost 20 years

# ? Jan 1, 2016 03:03

Catgirl Al Capone: Dec 15, 2007

I really appreciated how the puzzles in Lufia 2 weren't just some afterthought to pad the dungeons' lengths, but a legitimately cool and interesting mechanic that had clearly received a lot of love.

I hate RPG puzzles but Lufia 2's never felt like they were in the way.

# ? Jan 1, 2016 03:13

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

a medical mystery posted:

I really appreciated how the puzzles in Lufia 2 weren't just some afterthought to pad the dungeons' lengths, but a legitimately cool and interesting mechanic that had clearly received a lot of love.

I hate RPG puzzles but Lufia 2's never felt like they were in the way.

yeah basically this

# ? Jan 1, 2016 03:31

dmboogie: Oct 4, 2013

Kanfy posted:

Suikoden II is easily one of my favorite games of all time and also has one of my favorite soundtracks of all time. It's a shame Higashino stopped composing for video games soon afterwards, she did an insanely good job with that game especially considering how many different tracks there are in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WLyjRex0ac

Things like this video are why Suikoden II is so excellent to me. That flashback sequence is probably the best I've ever seen in an RPG, and the sprites are gorgeous and add so much more character to everyone. The only thing really keeping it from calling it my favorite is that the translation is admittedly pretty poo poo.

# ? Jan 1, 2016 03:56

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Nakar posted:

No Suikoden game is better than "okay" but I suppose it could be argued none is worse than "mediocre" either. Even the "bad" Suikodens are alright-ish.

I played Suik I and II for the first time last year and thought they were really great, although the stories are definitely overrated and Luca Blight is NOT sympathetic lol

also the true ending to Suik II still makes me laugh

# ? Jan 1, 2016 03:59

Cake Attack: Mar 26, 2010

Quest For Glory II posted:

I played Suik I and II for the first time last year and thought they were really great, although the stories are definitely overrated and Luca Blight is NOT sympathetic lol

also the true ending to Suik II still makes me laugh

who says luca is sympathetic ever

# ? Jan 1, 2016 03:59

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

i think they mean that he at least has a motivation for being ridiculously evil, unlike say kefka who's just an evil clown because, uh, magic

# ? Jan 1, 2016 04:00

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Cake Attack posted:

who says luca is sympathetic ever

I remember reading reviews prior to playing it saying that and I was like uhh yea no he slaughters an entire city to feed their souls to a demon or w/e

# ? Jan 1, 2016 04:01

Cake Attack: Mar 26, 2010

Endorph posted:

i think they mean that he at least has a motivation for being ridiculously evil, unlike say kefka who's just an evil clown because, uh, magic

yeah

# ? Jan 1, 2016 04:01

Kild: Apr 24, 2010

http://www.jp.square-enix.com/ff9/en/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oDeSJI0qJc

FF9 to PC and IOS/Android

# ? Jan 1, 2016 04:04

Motto: Aug 3, 2013

I liked ExDeath's motivation, which is that he's an evil tree born from everybody being lazy and sealing all the evil in the same drat tree.

# ? Jan 1, 2016 04:06

Nakar: Sep 2, 2002; Ultima Ratio Regum

Motto posted:

I liked ExDeath's motivation, which is that he's an evil tree born from everybody being lazy and sealing all the evil in the same drat tree.

Honestly this works for FF5's narrative because everything in FF5 is ridiculous and silly and the result of people behaving like idiots, and Exdeath is only threatening because the protagonists are dumber than he is. I imagine this is part of the reason FF5 wasn't localized when it first came out, it's very much tonally dissonant from FF4 and FF6.

# ? Jan 1, 2016 04:23

Motto: Aug 3, 2013

Nakar posted:

Honestly this works for FF5's narrative because everything in FF5 is ridiculous and silly and the result of people behaving like idiots, and Exdeath is only threatening because the protagonists are dumber than he is. I imagine this is part of the reason FF5 wasn't localized when it first came out, it's very much tonally dissonant from FF4 and FF6.

It actually wasn't localized because they thought it was too complex for westerners, lol. They considered and even started work on bringing it over as "Final Fantasy Extreme" rather than as a numbered title, but that plan fell through.

# ? Jan 1, 2016 04:34

Rascyc: Jan 23, 2008; Dissatisfied Puppy

Nakar posted:

Suikoden 2 is not a very good game. It's not a bad game by any stretch of the imagination, but there's nothing special about it. Better to be competent and unremarkable than ambitious and broken/lovely, but viewed independent of nostalgia it's just alright.

Out of curiosity what do you consider some of the greatest RPGs of the PSX then?

I mean I agree that Suikoden is pretty forgettable as a series at this point, but I thought Suikoden 2 was at least a tier above everything else on the PSX. There was A LOT of weird stuff on the PSX though. I say that as someone who played Suikoden 2 much later though.

Rascyc fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Jan 1, 2016

# ? Jan 1, 2016 04:39

Nakar: Sep 2, 2002; Ultima Ratio Regum

Rascyc posted:

Out of curiosity what do you consider some of the greatest RPGs of the PSX then?

I mean I agree that Suikoden is pretty forgettable as a series at this point, but I thought Suikoden 2 was at least a tier above everything else on the PSX. There was A LOT of weird stuff on the PSX though. I say that as someone who played Suikoden 2 much later though.

I'm not sure I can even distinguish which games were PSX and which were PS2 anymore but I'll try. I would also answer differently in terms of "most fun to play" vs. "most influential." Some that might fall kind of in the middle of the two points would be like Valkyrie Profile, Legend of Mana, Parasite Eve, and the early Tales games. There's also stuff like Chrono Cross, Final Fantasy Tactics, and the first two Star Oceans that I'm not sure where I'd categorize them on that continuum, and I'd probably put Suikoden 1&2 in with them somewhere, wherever that is. And influential but extremely flawed games like FF7-9 and Xenogears, and experimental games of mixed success like the SaGa Frontiers and Vagrant Story. If Symphony of the Night is considered an RPG that's a big one too, but I'm not sure whether I consider it one (I suppose Parasite Eve is also questionable).

# ? Jan 1, 2016 04:59

Admiral H. Curtiss: May 11, 2010; I think there are a bunch of people who can create trailing images. I know some who could do this as if they were just going out for a stroll.

Kild posted:

http://www.jp.square-enix.com/ff9/en/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oDeSJI0qJc

FF9 to PC and IOS/Android

Neat, didn't expect this to happen with no pre-existing PC port. Looks like they didn't mess with anything except for the resolution and framerate from the few gameplay shots you see in that trailer.

# ? Jan 1, 2016 05:08

Cake Attack: Mar 26, 2010

Nakar posted:

I'm not sure I can even distinguish which games were PSX and which were PS2 anymore but I'll try. I would also answer differently in terms of "most fun to play" vs. "most influential." Some that might fall kind of in the middle of the two points would be like Valkyrie Profile, Legend of Mana, Parasite Eve, and the early Tales games. There's also stuff like Chrono Cross, Final Fantasy Tactics, and the first two Star Oceans that I'm not sure where I'd categorize them on that continuum, and I'd probably put Suikoden 1&2 in with them somewhere, wherever that is. And influential but extremely flawed games like FF7-9 and Xenogears, and experimental games of mixed success like the SaGa Frontiers and Vagrant Story. If Symphony of the Night is considered an RPG that's a big one too, but I'm not sure whether I consider it one (I suppose Parasite Eve is also questionable).

you didn't really answer the question

Cake Attack fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Jan 1, 2016

# ? Jan 1, 2016 05:09

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

I would probably put Legend of Mana on the opposite side of "fun to play"

# ? Jan 1, 2016 05:12

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Cake Attack posted:

you didn't really answer the question

'what ps1 jrpgs do you like'

MOST FUN TO PLAY VS MOST INFLUENTIAL

'no im just asking what games you like'

THE CONTINUUM... THE WEIGHTED SCALES... I SHALL MEASURE AND DECIDE...

'just list some games you like'

INFLUENTIAL BUT EXTREMELY FLAWED GAMES LIKE FF9???

'what'

# ? Jan 1, 2016 05:19

Ruggington: Apr 21, 2012

Nakar posted:

I'm not sure I can even distinguish which games were PSX and which were PS2 anymore but I'll try. I would also answer differently in terms of "most fun to play" vs. "most influential." Some that might fall kind of in the middle of the two points would be like Valkyrie Profile, Legend of Mana, Parasite Eve, and the early Tales games. There's also stuff like Chrono Cross, Final Fantasy Tactics, and the first two Star Oceans that I'm not sure where I'd categorize them on that continuum, and I'd probably put Suikoden 1&2 in with them somewhere, wherever that is. And influential but extremely flawed games like FF7-9 and Xenogears, and experimental games of mixed success like the SaGa Frontiers and Vagrant Story. If Symphony of the Night is considered an RPG that's a big one too, but I'm not sure whether I consider it one (I suppose Parasite Eve is also questionable).

I...see...

# ? Jan 1, 2016 05:21

Nakar: Sep 2, 2002; Ultima Ratio Regum

Cake Attack posted:

you didn't answer the question

What do you want, a top ten? gently caress you.

It's difficult to pick when so many of the more promising ones are way too easy, but a lot of the more challenging ones are cumbersome or boring. FFT is an amazing system but the enemies are barely any challenge at all, so it merits a certain amount of credit for the systems but in terms of actually requiring you to know how to use any of them it kind of falls on its face. FF7 completely revolutionized JRPGs but you can beat most of it by just doing whatever and keeping your levels up. SoTN is gorgeous and plays brilliantly but you can overgrind the challenge almost accidentally. If a game is too easy then it's difficult to call it great unless it just knocks it out of the park in every other category.

So I dunno, Valkyrie Profile I guess because I like juggling dinosaurs and it was interestingly structured?

# ? Jan 1, 2016 05:21

GulagDolls: Jun 4, 2011

WHAT GAME IS FUN!!!! gently caress!!!!!!! gently caress!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

# ? Jan 1, 2016 05:22

Ruggington: Apr 21, 2012

Nakar posted:

What do you want, a top ten? gently caress you.

It's difficult to pick when so many of the more promising ones are way too easy, but a lot of the more challenging ones are cumbersome or boring. FFT is an amazing system but the enemies are barely any challenge at all, so it merits a certain amount of credit for the systems but in terms of actually requiring you to know how to use any of them it kind of falls on its face. FF7 completely revolutionized JRPGs but you can beat most of it by just doing whatever and keeping your levels up. SoTN is gorgeous and plays brilliantly but you can overgrind the challenge almost accidentally. If a game is too easy then it's difficult to call it great unless it just knocks it out of the park in every other category.

So I dunno, Valkyrie Profile I guess because I like juggling dinosaurs and it was interestingly structured?

I...see...?

# ? Jan 1, 2016 05:24

Motto: Aug 3, 2013

most videogames that are commonly considered great are generally p. easy.

# ? Jan 1, 2016 05:25

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Nakar posted:

What do you want, a top ten? gently caress you.

It's difficult to pick when so many of the more promising ones are way too easy, but a lot of the more challenging ones are cumbersome or boring. FFT is an amazing system but the enemies are barely any challenge at all, so it merits a certain amount of credit for the systems but in terms of actually requiring you to know how to use any of them it kind of falls on its face. FF7 completely revolutionized JRPGs but you can beat most of it by just doing whatever and keeping your levels up. SoTN is gorgeous and plays brilliantly but you can overgrind the challenge almost accidentally. If a game is too easy then it's difficult to call it great unless it just knocks it out of the park in every other category.

So I dunno, Valkyrie Profile I guess because I like juggling dinosaurs and it was interestingly structured?

do you like video games

# ? Jan 1, 2016 05:25

Ruggington: Apr 21, 2012

I, uh, I like f-final fantasy

# ? Jan 1, 2016 05:27

Nakar: Sep 2, 2002; Ultima Ratio Regum

Motto posted:

most videogames that are commonly considered great are generally p. easy.

That's fair, but it's usually because of the other stuff around them and some of that erodes over time when nostalgia wears off and you notice all those enemies in FFT you brutalized with your bitchin' class setup didn't even have weapons equipped and would've probably died to anything. I'd sort of think a game ought to require a little more engagement than that to be truly great? I don't know how much more than that.

# ? Jan 1, 2016 05:32

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 22:00

Kokoro Wish: Jul 23, 2007; Post? What post? Oh wow.
I had nothing to do with THAT.

Breath of Fire 3 was like, my favorite J-RPG on the PSX, yo. Grandia 1 was also pretty enjoyable.

# ? Jan 1, 2016 05:33

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