NihilismNow posted:

Say my wife is disobedient. How should i hit her to prevent permanent marks?
Like just a slap across the face or are clenched fists acceptable?

Peace be unto you brothers.

quote:

One Explanation (tafsir) given of this surahc (chapter 4:34) according to some scholars is:

"Men are the support of women as God gives some more means than others, and because they spend of their wealth (to provide for them). So women who are virtuous are obedient to God and guard the hidden as God has guarded it. As for women who are averse in behavior, talk to them suasively, leave them alone in bed and tap them (like a doctor would tap a patient - lightly), if they open out to you, do not seek an excuse for blaming them. Surely God is sublime and great."

Meaning of the Words

For the three words fa'izu, wahjaru, and wadribu in the original, translated here 'talk to them suasively,' 'leave them alone (in bed - fi'l-madage'),' and tap lightly (percuss them), respectively,

Fa'izu (to use persuasive speech or admonishment)

Fa'izu, implies the first step should be to make clear to them using straight talk, the position they are in and what is required to comply with the teaching of Islam. This approach may be repeated until it is established she has understood and is willing to comply and come back into line with the proper expected of a Muslim woman.

Hajara - Wahjaru (do not touch or molest them)

Hajara, he says, means to separate body from body, and points out that the expression wahjaru hunna metaphorically means to refrain from touching or molesting them. Zamakhshari is more explicit in his Kshshaf when he says, 'do not get inside their blankets.'

Daraba (tap lightly as 'percuss', not to beat)

Daraba lightly tap them (women).' This view is strengthened by the Prophet's authentic hadith found in a number of authorities, including Bukhari and Muslim:

"Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?"

There are other traditions in Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad bin Hanbal and others, to the effect that he forbade the beating of any woman, saying:

"Never beat God's handmaidens."

http://www.islamswomen.com/marriage/wife_beating_in_islam.php

NihilismNow posted:

Say my wife is disobedient. How should i hit her to prevent permanent marks?
Like just a slap across the face or are clenched fists acceptable?

Peace be unto you brothers.

Amun Khonsu posted:

The correct arabic translation indicates a limitation set of maximum attention getter you can use for a serious problem in a marriage, which put a stop to the harsh treatment of women in the early Arab tribes. It does not mean "beat" as in to abuse, but to "tap lightly" and in Arab tradition this meant to use nothing larger or more harmful than your one finger (typically a miswak).

Here, lets get women's perspective.


More detailed discussion on the topic:

http://www.islamicfinder.org/articles/article.php?id=307

Lassitude posted:

In general, how do you reconcile the qur'an and the hadith when there's conflict between the two? Like, for example, Sahih Muslim 004, 2127, seems to explicitly contradict the explanation you gave there.

quote:

He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He gave me a nudge on the chest which I felt, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. Sahih Muslim http://sunnah.com/muslim/11/132

quote:

'Aishah (May Allah be pleased with her) reported:

Messenger of Allah never hit anything with his hand neither a servant nor a woman but of course, he did fight in the Cause of Allah. He never took revenge upon anyone for the wrong done to him, but of course, he exacted retribution for the sake of Allah in case the Injunctions of Allah about unlawful acts were violated.

Sahih Muslim Book 1, Hadith 644 http://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/1/644

Amun Khonsu posted:

I follow my faith closely and am well knowledgeable about it. Islam is a social justice movement.

Cingulate posted:

From what I can tell, for Zakmonster, "inherently wrong" = causes direct, unwanted suffering to human (and possible other) human beings in this world.

waitwhatno posted:

Read the last two pages, being gay is not a sin. Only the splitting of rear end to ram cock is a sin. You can probably even kiss and it will not be a sin, but I dunno.

Zakmonster posted:

The thing to note is that most imams will agree that premarital/extramarital/homosexual sex (heretofore shortened to 'haram sex'), is forbidden because letting it go unchecked is likely to have negative consequences on society (which I agree is debatable). So its actually more of a social no-no, than it is an immoral act.

Amun Khonsu posted:

No people sin by being born according to Islam. Original sin is specific to Christian theology, not Islam.

waitwhatno posted:

Read the last two pages, being gay is not a sin. Only the splitting of rear end to ram cock is a sin. You can probably even kiss and it will not be a sin, but I dunno.

TacticalUrbanHomo posted:

Well now you're contradicting yourself: is homosexuality sinful or not?

Amun Khonsu posted:

Frankly im not interested in discussing homosexuals anymore. What they do is between God and them, not me and them.

Lassitude posted:

Homosexual equality is what's generally considered a relevant social justice topic.

Cingulate posted:

Now I fear I am again confused. You'd say homosexual acts are sins against God though right? Because God has said so?

And if you were presented with some very credible scientific numbers that gay sex truly hurts society (for example, by spreading diseases), you would then say gay sex is, in addition to being a sin in the eyes of God, inherently bad?

TacticalUrbanHomo posted:

Well now you're contradicting yourself: is homosexuality sinful or not?


I am so sick of hearing this asinine cop-out. If you believe that homosexuals, as a result of who they are as people, cannot have romantic relationships without it being sinful, then you are saying they can only avoid sin by severely limiting their experience of life in a way that is not asked of other people. That can only be interpreted as a punishment they are deemed as deserving simply for being born. If that's what you think, then you obviously don't think "oh, no, gays are perfectly alright" because then you would feel that they had the same rights as everyone else.

Fuzz posted:

If God doesn't like butt sex, oh well. If it's a sin, maybe he'll forgive it. If premarital sex is a sin, maybe he'll forgive me for it, too. I'm a pretty good person otherwise, and believe in God, so either way, even if I end up going to Hell for sinning more than good deeding, eventually I'll get out because I believe in God and that's the only unforgivable sin.

I can't tell if God will compare us against all the other people of our Era or if he'll just have a universal benchmark for all people, be they stone age tribal people that lived before any of his books were revealed or if they live on a moonbase in some other galaxy and have to pray facing the Stargate that got them there. I don't really give a poo poo.

All I can do is be a good person and live my life. That includes being friends with gay people and not giving a poo poo about what they do in private, because just like a hetero couple it's none of my goddamn business, same way if I'm loving my girlfriend every night who I have no intention of marrying and we use condoms every time, it's none of your goddamn business, either.

God will make of it what he will. I give money to poor people, am generally a good person, have helped save several hundred lives in the last few years, and otherwise have tried to help people live healthier lives. Yes, I've also been involved when errors were made by someone, and people died. Far fewer of those cases than the others, obviously, but still, sometimes I wonder if I could have done something differently or if I'm either partly or wholly responsible for someone's death. Do I go flog myself about it?

No, I just keep living my life, trying to do the best I can because I'm flawed because I'm human, and no one is perfect, not even the Prophet was. Neither was Jesus, according to the Quran, he blinded people for pissing him off when he was a kid, among other things. That's a story you only find in the Quran since we don't deify him because he was just a dude that happened to need miracles to get people to believe him.

JustinMorgan posted:

The mention of cave people made me think of a question. Muslims believe in heaven and hell, correct? What about purgatory? What about all those people who lived and died before Mohammed? If there's no original sin, do babies automatically go to heaven?

waitwhatno posted:

Pleeeeaase, don't be silly. Islam is forever and ever incompatible with post-modern society.

Fuzz posted:

Mecca can, often has been, and is currently ruled by a bunch of lovely rear end in a top hat fuckheads.

Fuzz posted:

No one goes to heaven until the Day of Judgment. In the interim, everyone sits around in what is essentially a cosmic waiting room (purgatory) where those that have sinned can, in fact, be punished for those sins so they aren't accountable for them on the Day of Judgment.

Those who lived before the revelations had little choice in the matter, and thus are not damned to Hell because they didn't have a choice in the matter of knowing about God. Babies fall into this category, as do really small children (under age 12), because in Islam God is very forgiving... the short prayer that you read before reading from the Quran does, in fact, translate to, "In the name of God, the most Beneficent, the most Merciful."

If you are Jewish, you will go to Heaven if you were a good person. This is because you believe in God.

If you were Christian, you will (arguably) go to Heaven if you were a good person. This is because you believe in God. The arguable nature is that the vast majority of modern Christian sects believe Jesus was the literal son of God, which is actually back into that unforgivable sin, in Islam.

Further, even if you sin and are damned to Hell on the Day of Judgment, if you believe in God, one day you will be freed and returned to Heaven, because ultimately there is a time limit on all punishments and God will forgive all sins, except for willfully failing to believe in him and, even worse, actively subverting others away from him. That is the only sin that will truly get you a one way ticket to the worst place imaginable (aka a prison in Detroit).

The above reasons are why the Muslims generally didn't force people to convert in their conquered lands, be they in the Middle East, Northern Africa, the Subcontinent, or Spain. There was no need to convert a people that were already believers, although strategically this obviously ended up biting them in the rear end hard, especially in Spain and India. It's why you don't see Muslim missionaries nowadays outside of fundamentalist whackjob wahabi cultist assholes... Islam teaches us to live by example, and lead our lives in a respectable and clean manner, and if we are good others will see the merits of our ways and if they are interested, they can be educated on the topic. That is how the Prophet converted people, and it's the only true way to win someone's heart and mind to a belief system. There is no arguing to convince people, as some people in this thread seem to think there is... y do your thing, I do my thing, and if you see my thing () and are interested in learning about how it works (), I can show you how it works. ()

The pursuit of knowledge and the preservation of all human knowledge is actually one of the major tenets of Islam... it's why the Caliphate preserved all of that Plutarch, Tacitus, Aristotle, etc so that we have it all today, in the original Latin/Greek. It's why we still have such a functional understanding of life in Ancient Egypt, their monuments, tombs, etc were all preserved. It's why there's such a big push in (most) Muslim families to pursue knowledge and educate yourself... it's literally the same mindset as Judaism, which is again why I say Judaism and Islam are, in many ways, the same religion.

All theshit going on with ISIL, Al-Qaeda, etc is just a straight up travesty and explicitly goes against what the religion teaches us to do. Blame it on the loving Saudis... one of the greatest assets of Islam is that it's not centralized and you only need to pray to God and he will hear you... one of the greatest flaws of Islam is that it's not centralized, so those in need of guidance mistakenly turn to Mecca for their spiritual direction, and Mecca can, often has been, and is currently ruled by a bunch of lovely rear end in a top hat fuckheads.

Fizzil posted:

I just dont get where people get this idea where if you sin its all over for you, for the longest time in my life i was taught that people are judged for everything in the afterlife, but the good they have done can outweigh their sins, and this is why there is minor and major sins, its obviously classified and weighted. The basic things in Islam to be considered a muslim is to pray, fast, give to charity and go to hajj, but what if a homosexual muslim did all these would he still go to hell for it because he engaged in sodomy?

Fizzil posted:

I just dont get where people get this idea where if you sin its all over for you, for the longest time in my life i was taught that people are judged for everything in the afterlife, but the good they have done can outweigh their sins, and this is why there is minor and major sins, its obviously classified and weighted. The basic things in Islam to be considered a muslim is to pray, fast, give to charity and go to hajj, but what if a homosexual muslim did all these would he still go to hell for it because he engaged in sodomy?

Cingulate posted:

Why does God dislike extramartial sex?

Maoist Pussy posted:

When you die and get to bone your 72 virgins, is that considered consensual sex by social justice standards? Like, are the virgins allowed to say no? Also, where do they get 72 women for each man? Also, what do women get, because I certainly wouldn't want a bunch of virgins, na'mean?

Maoist Pussy posted:

When you die and get to bone your 72 virgins, is that considered consensual sex by social justice standards? Like, are the virgins allowed to say no? Also, where do they get 72 women for each man? Also, what do women get, because I certainly wouldn't want a bunch of virgins, na'mean?

Lassitude posted:

I guess it makes it easier to be really weird about sex when you're imagining just a crazy, non-stop sex party in the afterlife.

Lassitude posted:

Well, on a lark I thought I'd look into the whole 72 virgins thing, and it seems like there are passages in the qur'an which make explicit mention to there being houri given to the faithful after death. That is, "companions" which are "full-breasted" and have "modest gazes" and such. Although the number is up for debate, it seems like it's more than one, too. Which is pretty hot. If there are other rewards explicitly mentioned I'd like to hear of them, though.

Amun Khonsu posted:

Tendai posted:

Is it really all that surprising that sex is used as a way to talk about Paradise, considering that sex is universal to the human experience and (generally speaking) feels really good? I've never quite understood the hang-up on those descriptions, to me it comes off as more a way of saying "Seriously guys, you have no idea how good this is gonna be, here's an attempt at describing it" than anything literal. I mean, of all the things to be all "gasp, look at those Muslims" about, that is... probably not high up on the list, I'd think.

waitwhatno posted:

I think the hangup is more about the fact that you get a bunch of sex slaves in paradise. The idea of sex slaves is absolutely revolting to most modern people.

waitwhatno posted:

I think the hangup is more about the fact that you get a bunch of sex slaves in paradise. The idea of sex slaves is absolutely revolting to most modern people.

Tendai posted:

Yes, it is. But like I said, the view of it as being literal rather than an attempt to describe "a thing that is gonna be really awesome" in a frame of reference that people of the time (and any time, if we're just looking at the sex aspect) would understand, doesn't make much sense to me.