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CommieGIR posted:Considering Bosch is the primary injection pump provider for multiple heavy and medium duty diesels, what the hell is happened to these designs that is causing such premature failure? The design went to a review board of accountants and actuarians who worked out that statistically very few people used all of the available engine power more than momentarily and that they could thus reduce costs by halving the feeder pump capacity. Unrelated, one of my colleagues bought a secondhand Mercedes Sprinter in which one of the injectors had cracked or split in some manner which allowed combustion gasses to bleed up into the injector valley; we didn't do any remediation work, and he simply drove it hauling motorcycles until it died. I can't find the photo that we took at the time, but here's one that I GIS'd up which is miles worse: 
IPCRESS fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Jan 2, 2016 |
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Jan 2, 2016 03:06
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IPCRESS posted:The design went to a review board of accountants and actuarians who worked out that statistically very few people used all of the available engine power more than momentarily and that they could thus reduce costs by halving the feeder pump capacity. Its just sad, because Bosch makes some genuinely good Injection Pumps, but then Common Rail comes out and they go to hell in a handbasket
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Jan 2, 2016 03:09
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Looking further into it, it's the same fuel pump in diesel tuaregs and early ford 6.7s. with the same results.
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Jan 2, 2016 03:24
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Not sure if it's the same pump on the TDI Golfs but they have a bit of a reputation for it as well. At least part of the problem in the US is the extremely poor quality diesel fuel you can potentially end up getting, mostly the very low lubricity, compared to superior German diesel. Biodiesel has a very high lubricity, but VW says that's a no no, or at least they did. That still doesn't excuse the problem, particularly if it's this widespread, and there's no excuse for replacing the lovely pump with another identical lovely pump. Glad I got rid of mine and said gently caress VAG forever.
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Jan 2, 2016 04:19
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CommieGIR posted:Considering Bosch is the primary injection pump provider for multiple heavy and medium duty diesels, what the hell is happened to these designs that is causing such premature failure? Probably the fact that their clients try to squeeze every cent they can from them, forcing them to build their products as cheap as possible.
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Jan 2, 2016 07:54
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Powershift posted:You're not going to believe this, but an underbuilt bosch fuel pump has tanked yet another dodge diesel. What fuel pump is this? It sounds like the standard CP4 failure. And let's be fair, Bosch has hosed Ford, GM and VW with those. I really wish there was an alternate supplier.
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Jan 2, 2016 17:11
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Image wasn't showing up due to missing extension. People need to see this 
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Jan 3, 2016 04:46
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Powershift posted:Looking further into it, it's the same fuel pump in diesel tuaregs and early ford 6.7s. Different pump (also Bosch IIRC) similar issue with all the recent duratec (e: duratorq?) fours in their cars. So that's most of their European sales right there. My wife's S-Max's fuel pump went about 4 years and 35k into the car's life, before we bought it. The £800+ the last owner paid as a result is one reason I stick to N/A petrol cars. Saga fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Jan 3, 2016 |
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Jan 3, 2016 10:00
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Saga posted:The £800+ the last owner paid as a result is one reason I stick to N/A petrol cars. That isn't necessarily going to help - direct injection is common there as well these days.
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Jan 3, 2016 10:13
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dissss posted:That isn't necessarily going to help - direct injection is common there as well these days. I should have said, old petrol shitters like my E46  I probably have another decade or so before I'll be stuck buying something with a high pressure fuel system.
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Jan 3, 2016 10:21
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dissss posted:That isn't necessarily going to help - direct injection is common there as well these days. Yeah but petrol DI tends to use electric HPFPs. At least when those fail *cough BMW cough* you don't have to disassemble half the motor to swap 'em out
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Jan 3, 2016 11:04
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literally a fish posted:Yeah but petrol DI tends to use electric HPFPs. Which ones? All the ones I've worked on firsthand have mechanical (usually cam driven) HPFPs (GM, Kia/Hyundai, VW). They all still have an electric LPFP in the tank though but I haven't even heard of an electric HPFP on a DI vehicle
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Jan 3, 2016 16:32
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FuzzKill posted:Which ones? All the ones I've worked on firsthand have mechanical (usually cam driven) HPFPs (GM, Kia/Hyundai, VW). They all still have an electric LPFP in the tank though but I haven't even heard of an electric HPFP on a DI vehicle Same, I've never seen an electric high pressure pump but I've also never taken apart a DI BMW. Also, CRDI pumps aren't a oval office to swap out if the designer isn't an idiot (so forget any VAG engines right there). The good ones are just on the back of the head and cam driven and don't use retarded legacy designs that stick them in the same place as the injector pump on an older engine with the same block/timing layout.
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Jan 3, 2016 21:25
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Slavvy posted:Same, I've never seen an electric high pressure pump but I've also never taken apart a DI BMW. the HPFP in the N54/N55 is chain-driven, on the same chain as the oil pump, and is actually driven from the back of the vacuum pump, both of which are front and center in this picture:  Once the fasteners holding the pump are removed and the fuel lines taken off, the thing just slides in and out of the back of the vacuum pump.
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Jan 3, 2016 23:32
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H-uh. I thought it was electric. That makes more sense, though - I stand corrected.
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Jan 3, 2016 23:36
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MrChips posted:the HPFP in the N54/N55 is chain-driven, on the same chain as the oil pump, and is actually driven from the back of the vacuum pump, both of which are front and center in this picture: That's a really nice setup TBH.
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Jan 4, 2016 02:03
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Why does a stock, modern car need a vacuum pump?
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Jan 4, 2016 06:16
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ShittyPostmakerPro posted:Why does a stock, modern car need a vacuum pump? http://www.bmwforums.info/general-guides-and-how-to-s/4638-bmw-valvetronic.html
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Jan 4, 2016 06:28
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It might do some of the throttle control with valve timing instead of the actual throttle plate and therefore not have much manifold vacuum. Or maybe so they can use the same brake booster setup on all the cars including diesel. Plus pulling vacuum on the crankcase reduces blowby and increases power. e- hey there you go.
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Jan 4, 2016 06:30
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ShittyPostmakerPro posted:Why does a stock, modern car need a vacuum pump? jamal posted:It might do some of the throttle control with valve timing instead of the actual throttle plate and therefore not have much manifold vacuum. Or maybe so they can use the same brake booster setup on all the cars including diesel. Plus pulling vacuum on the crankcase reduces blowby and increases power. Also because turbocharged, so it doesn't generate a lot of manifold vacuum at the best of times. My 2004 turbo'd Volvo has an electric vacuum pump for the brake booster, you can manually flip it on with the diag software. Pretty neat. But yeah, Valvetronic = no intake manifold vacuum.
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Jan 4, 2016 07:20
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ShittyPostmakerPro posted:Why does a stock, modern car need a vacuum pump? Hybrids also have no manifold vacuum and have electric vacuum pumps. It sounds like a cow actually. Especially audible on the Prius C. Pump the pedal more and you make the cow moo some more. Also the master cylinder on a Toyota hybrid is ridiculously expensive. It's gotta sense and simulate a regular brake pedal when the car is actually regen braking. This is on a Gen 3 prius. It's got the ABS module built into it. How much? Try $1600-$2000 for an OEM one! 
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Jan 4, 2016 13:11
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0toShifty posted:Hybrids also have no manifold vacuum and have electric vacuum pumps. It sounds like a cow actually. Especially audible on the Prius C. Pump the pedal more and you make the cow moo some more. My Mini cooper makes the moo sound too, since it has the N16 which has valvetronic. It's kinda funny that when you unlock the car if it's been sitting a few hours, you'll hear it make a little whirring noise towards the back of the car. I guess the engine bay has such limited space they had to put the pump somewhere else. I must say the car in 'sport' mode has a stupidly responsive throttle. I really like it.
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Jan 4, 2016 14:08
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0toShifty posted:Hybrids also have no manifold vacuum and have electric vacuum pumps. It sounds like a cow actually. Especially audible on the Prius C. Pump the pedal more and you make the cow moo some more. Toyota have a thing for that- The master cylinder on my 100 series landcruiser is of similar insanity- No vacuum booster, but its got a 700psi nitrogen accumulator and pump to replace it, and its got the ABS module integrated into it.  And about a billion little O-rings that all HATE any brake fluid than Dot 3 - so if some moron runs dot 4 through it and swells the seals, guess what, your up for a new master cylinder. Which are $3800 for an OEM, and after market ones dont exist. And the wreckers are aware of what the dealer charges, so $2500 will get you a 2nd hand one that MIGHT not have had Dot 4 in it?
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Jan 4, 2016 14:29
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BloodBag posted:My Mini cooper makes the moo sound too, since it has the N16 which has valvetronic. It's kinda funny that when you unlock the car if it's been sitting a few hours, you'll hear it make a little whirring noise towards the back of the car. I guess the engine bay has such limited space they had to put the pump somewhere else. I must say the car in 'sport' mode has a stupidly responsive throttle. I really like it. That's most likely the fuel pump priming the system.
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Jan 4, 2016 14:33
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literally a fish posted:That's most likely the fuel pump priming the system. After a little research, you are correct, it's the fuel system pressurizing. All this chat of modules integrated into other modules got me thinking about the SZL (steering angle sensor) on my mini. After it was curbed so badly it bent the subframe, fcab, and lower control arm. All that stuff got replaced but then the SZL failed for some reason. It's a little optical decoder ring that sits on the steering shaft behind the wheel. For packaging reasons, BMW saw fit to integrate the control stalks into it as well. That means that the SZL failing means disassembling the steering column and replacing the whole module and re-coding it to the car for a whopping $1100. BloodBag fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Jan 4, 2016 |
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Jan 4, 2016 15:00
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literally a fish posted:That's most likely the fuel pump priming the system. Yeah, Prius does that too. Not a moo, it sounds more like grinding gears. First few times my wife heard it she was convinced something was broken. The climate system spinning up on a cold start sounds pretty bad too. Edit- the Prius whirr is actually the brakes priming, had to look it up. 
xzzy fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Jan 4, 2016 |
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Jan 4, 2016 15:02
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All of this whirring and mooing and l'il pumps to get things working...it's why, when I finally have to buy a DD, it's not going to be newer than 1984, and probably no older than 1974.  
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Jan 4, 2016 17:37
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Malaise era cars don't need electric vacuum pumps because they already suck.
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Jan 4, 2016 17:42
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How many systems other than ignition and the brake booster are tied to vacuum on modern cars anyways? It almost seems less complicated to redesign the brake booster and retain manifold vacuum for any system tied to the engine on hybrids.
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Jan 4, 2016 18:06
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joat mon posted:Malaise era cars don't need electric vacuum pumps because they already suck. Good point. People bought Japanese around that time for drat good reasons. If you think about how much it was a big deal to the consumer, then you'd realise how bad things were from the big three in order for them to make that huge leap and buy Japanese. poo poo sucked real real bad. E: In Australia they never really recovered, (as we don't get the cool cars or trucks the US market has and only so many people want utes, station wagons or panel vans), and ou aussie made "big three" cars weren't even as bad as the cars the US big three tried to sell, the aussie ones were way better in fact but still suffered the US stigma. e2: Of course earlier cars were loving awesome. Fo3 fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Jan 4, 2016 |
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Jan 4, 2016 18:45
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General_Failure posted:??? Oh right, I always forget RHD because I have literally never worked on one. Sorry, what I said only applies to LHD and I haven't a clue how the RHD XJs did their serp belt stuff. rndmnmbr posted:IIRC the "cloth" was asbestos, so I hope that squirrel enjoyed it's mesothelioma. * excepting some very specific applications where it was necessary, such as wiring to resistive heater elements in ovens, toasters, etc. Asbestos is actually still legal to use in the US in a handful of niche, special-purpose applications, but the industries involved do their damndest to avoid using it because "company X is still selling asbestos-tainted products for the hell of it!" is really awful publicity. BloodBag posted:After a little research, you are correct, it's the fuel system pressurizing. That's a pretty common place to put the steering angle sensor, but most makes do it more intelligently than that. For instance many Hondas (example: 2012 Accord Coupe) use the 35251-TA0-B11 steering angle sensor + housing. There are a handful of versions of the MFS (multifunction stalk) that have fogs and auto lights as options that plug right in, for any vehicle from the Fit to the Civic to the Accord to the Element (iirc.) Same for the wiper stalk, there's one with intermittent wiper, one without, one with rear wiper, one with rear wiper and washer, etc... for a half dozen different vehicles. And they all have the same wiring harness connector and plug right in, so theoretically you could junkyard modules from a higher spec vehicle and plug them into your base spec and suddenly have all those features, if the harness implements the extra wiring on model. And the electrical stuff isn't all networked and coded to the vehicle, for example the steering angle sensor is a 5 pin connector, takes 5V and ground and gives you open-collector outputs for the index pulse (every rotation of the wheel there's a pulse when the wheel is upright) and the A/B quadrature encoder pulses. All a little fuzzy to me now, since it's been months since I worked on it, but I reverse engineered that all for a project at work. It's a very simple intuitive system and I intend to use them in my own projects as well if possible.
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Jan 4, 2016 20:22
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kastein posted:Oh right, I always forget RHD because I have literally never worked on one. Sorry, what I said only applies to LHD and I haven't a clue how the RHD XJs did their serp belt stuff. Yeah, but this is german poo poo, why do it simple when complicated will do?
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Jan 4, 2016 21:01
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So I'm not 100% sure on this, but this BMW 750i X-Drive was in for an oil change (needed 9.5 quarts but that's besides the point) and we noticed there are coolant hoses going into the engine computers - of which there are two. This is a 4.4 Liter Twin Power engine. Is it controlled by two ECUs like the old school V12s? Also it has the turbos in the valley like a powerstroke. And in other BMW news - the worst exhaust I've ever seen. It's actually welded - well boogered, sorta. That thing before the fart can is a catalytic converter. 
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Jan 4, 2016 21:10
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I wonder if those ECMs are on a seperate cooling system from the engine coolant. I can't imagine any electronics liking being at 200°+ for more than a couple seconds before electron migration starts up.
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Jan 4, 2016 21:28
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Probably. I know the Prius BLDC controller runs on its own coolant system that's separate from the engine. I also know exactly how 100 degree toyota red coolant feels and tastes when poured over oneself by holding a Prius controller over your head on a hot summer day. What was intended as a junkyard victory celebration quickly turned into an unexpectedly sweet, sickeningly flavored shower.
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Jan 4, 2016 21:43
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F-150 takes two rounds of armor-piercing .50BMG to the block and keeps running (albeit barely). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zd-hMXeMoA
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Jan 4, 2016 22:10
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0toShifty posted:Hybrids also have no manifold vacuum and have electric vacuum pumps. But where would you need to use vacuum on a modern car? Can all of the functions that I'm thinking of (brake booster, charcoal canister, FPR) be accomplished using other methods? Is it all down to cost savings from using existing vacuum based equipment? I know about the benefits from pulling vacuum from the crank case, but do many stock, not-high-performance cars do this?
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Jan 4, 2016 23:30
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A lot of HVAC systems are still run by vacuum too. Less these days with computerized consoles, but it's still out there.
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Jan 4, 2016 23:33
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kastein posted:Probably depends, but I don't believe I've ever seen asbestos-cloth insulation in a house*, it's usually rubber impregnated cotton over rubber. That's good to know, considering how much of the stuff I've reused doing mindbogglingly stupid things, like rigging up a 100' 240v extension cord to run a welder in a detached garage. But hey, I only had a Lincoln buzzbox, and the closest 240v outlet was in the utility room in the house, and it worked. Anyways, I probably got mesothelioma anyways from ripping all the asbestos siding off of said garage and tossing it in a pit I dug in the backyard, because proper abatement is expensive. 
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Jan 5, 2016 07:27
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Phanatic posted:F-150 takes two rounds of armor-piercing .50BMG to the block and keeps running (albeit barely). 
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