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Long term exposure to the OT has heightened our familiarity with ANHs cantina aliens plus anyone who played the star wars ccg is even more intimately familiar because they were common as muck and everyone had millions of them
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 11:03 |
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# ? May 14, 2024 02:21 |
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Waffles Inc. posted:for fucks sake, the medical droid who helps luke in ESB is more interesting insofar as he makes a larger impression By the way, can a wookiepedia editor confirm for me real quick that this is the guy who calls Leia when Finn et al walk into the Kaz cantina?
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 11:04 |
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I loved the mosquito aliens.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 11:09 |
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I liked the cool slowdroid walking out of Maz's bar.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 11:58 |
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Yeah, these are pretty bad. Bald humanoids with odd-coloured skin and either a big forehead or a big jaw. Or both. ~*-practical effects!-*~
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 13:01 |
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I was actually super psyched when they get to Maz's castle and you see all the cool aliens. That picture you guys are using is just a fraction of the ones onscreen. My favorite is probably the trio of bug guys drinking with proboscises, and the sentai guy Finn is to leave with. No, it probably doesn't "say" anything, other than "this is a weird, diverse place." Which is probably why there aren't lingering camera shots on the ~practical effects~ - they're just incidental, being used to tell a story. No one has addressed that Jakku is full of creativity. For being a place of scavengers, there's not a single jawa or tusken. They anticipated the lazy criticism that it's Tatooine and made stuff like this, a fully cybernetic beast of burden. Ben Quadranaros is a really poor example to pick as an interesting alien. It's interesting how insanely out of place he looks and how goofy he is, and how much of a waste of time it is to show him stalling in the race. From my point of view the prequels are evil.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 13:25 |
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Cnut the Great posted:
It appears to me that the artists weren't pushed enough.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 13:26 |
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Kulkasha posted:I liked the cool slowdroid walking out of Maz's bar. Is that the same slowbot that informed the Resistance? Cause that thing was cool as poo poo.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 13:35 |
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Soggy Cereal posted:No, it probably doesn't "say" anything, other than "this is a weird, diverse place." Which is probably why there aren't lingering camera shots on the ~practical effects~ - they're just incidental, being used to tell a story. What is it, you think, that makes the ANH cantina a more interesting place? Are we, as the audience, meant to be more "welcomed" to Maz's bar as opposed to the cantina? Are the aliens at Maz's meant to be less foreign to Finn and Rey? You say that Maz's aliens not meant to say anything are are just being used to tell a story, so what is that story they're being used to tell? The creatures in the prequels and OT tell us about a place, what is it that the big fat alien with the woman tell us? For example, do they tell us that Maz's place is a wretched hive of scum and villainy? If so, why should we trust its proprietor?
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 13:37 |
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The 50s diner owns. It’s a key piece of Obi Wan’s nostalgic “more civilized age”, the 50s, when men where men and everyone knew their place. Much like the 50s to many old white men these ways, who feel like that was the ideal Sense and Motion fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Jan 6, 2016 |
# ? Jan 6, 2016 13:52 |
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I thought Walrus man and his femme fatale first order spy probably pulling his strings were really cool looking.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 13:56 |
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The ANH cantina seems more interesting because of the place it occupies in the story. It's Luke's first introduction to the wider world that he knows nothing about, a world that is dark, violent, and scary. The ugly guy who confronts him is a Threshold Guardian in the Hero's Journey model. This part in the story, for Rey and Finn, is taken up by the Rathtars (shoggoths.) I know you guys don't like them either, but there you go. Maz's castle is equally interesting to me because it is a deliberate reversal of the cantina. It's a Meeting with the Goddess scenario, where a seemingly immortal woman gives divine boons and weapons in preparation for what's ahead. The only scary thing that Finn and Rey face in this cantina is themselves. Han wants his pupils to believe that it's a dangerous place, and he warns them not to stare at anything - he's pining for when he stayed at "real" cantinas, which were dangerous and creepy affairs. But really he's speaking in willful ignorance - he's ignoring that the Rebel Alliance changed anything for the galaxy, and made it a brighter, happier place. Which is also why this is when Maz tries to recruit him to helping Leia fight the dark side. He's living for his younger days when he didn't have to worry about anything but Jabba. Jabba is gone, though, replaced thematically by Maz. Like SMG says, this movie starts from the position at the end of Empire Strikes Back, not Return of the Jedi. But I think this comes from the characters' behavior, not an attempt to retcon or ignore what happened. edit: Just thought of another cool thing that goes along with this - Han is hauling Rathtars to sell to a king. As we know from Jabba, rulers like to have crazy man-eating pets. Han misses Jabba. It's "the only thing [he's] good at." As for the specifics of costume design for the aliens, I don't think it means anything other than worldbuilding (my immersion!). In ANH the costumers weren't really given any specific direction, and were told to just make aliens. IIRC they were all put together very quickly. Of course George Lucas selected some and declined others, but it's not like he had a whole lot to work with. Soggy Cereal fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Jan 6, 2016 |
# ? Jan 6, 2016 14:01 |
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I still don't understand this premise that the new film picks up where ESB left off, thematically or whatever. Obviously the events of RotJ still happened. So nothing changed. Isn't it telling that the victory at the end of it was ultimately a hollow one?
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 14:21 |
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corn in the fridge posted:I still don't understand this premise that the new film picks up where ESB left off, thematically or whatever. Obviously the events of RotJ still happened. So nothing changed. Isn't it telling that the victory at the end of it was ultimately a hollow one? The idea is that ESB ends with everyone going their separate ways, somewhat defeated, ready to bring back Han Solo and fight the Empire again. ROTJ ends with everyone together, celebrating with literal teddy bears, the Empire defeated. TFA starts with the Empire in full swing, everyone separated out, somewhat defeated by Kylo Ren's actions, bringing back Han Solo and fighting the Empire again. I think I read somewhere that this is where Ren's character came from in the early stages of writing - a reason why everyone had separated.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 14:26 |
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Soggy Cereal posted:The ANH cantina seems more interesting because of the place it occupies in the story. It's Luke's first introduction to the wider world that he knows nothing about, a world that is dark, violent, and scary. The ugly guy who confronts him is a Threshold Guardian in the Hero's Journey model. Some good stuff here--good point about Han
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 14:28 |
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The alien designs in TFA - and we are talking about design here, not just "I liek it" - are weak because they do not evoke concepts.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 14:52 |
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Some of the aliens were really good and cool. I like the thing which is trying to get BB-8 nearish the start and it's riding something which looks like it's from the Dark Crystal. Bar scene did suck and managed to be bland/pointless but the red robot outside was cool too.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 15:02 |
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Jerkface posted:Throwbacks, references, of course. Is anything as blatant as a literal 50s diner waitress robot that even talks like a 50s diner waitress? In the OT? God that loving diner just gets my goat every time. I honestly dont think theres anything like it in the OT, but I am sure some enterprising PT defender will bring something up (which is ok, I enjoy all the debates!) It's an explicit reference to American Graffiti, a film very closely linked to Star Wars. Lucas is quoting American Graffiti. The integrity of the Star Wars "universe" doesn't need to be defended, it isn't real. corn in the fridge posted:I always thought the 50s diner scene was more of a character moment for Obi-wan, as in he probably frequents these places often and he really enjoys it, possibly some sort of pretentious prince among the peasants thing. The likeness of the diner to that of an earth diner was irrelevant to the scene but added a bit of extra charm imo Danger fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Jan 6, 2016 |
# ? Jan 6, 2016 15:26 |
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Cnut the Great posted:Also: Huh, that's pretty neat - I wasn't aware of the models used. But it's still drowned in CGI effects - whether it's traffic, ocean waves, or six-armed frog convicts running a diner. My main issue with the list of gripes from the PT is that they're jarringly out of place - they look like props and movie sets, as opposed to being part of the film. They remove the suspension of disbelief. The Queen's Naboo cruiser didn't need to look utilitarian or junky, but it didn't have to be a shimmering cartoon, either. Jerkface posted:dexters diner is the most egregious thing in the prequels. My problem with it is not that a diner exists in star wars, but that it was realized as an Earth 50s diner including an alien wearing strangely earth like clothing and robots modeled after 50s diner waitresses. Instead of being a diner, but making sense in the star wars universe (like how Maz's watering hole & the mos eisley cantina look like plausible bars for their environs) this loving 50s diner looks like someone took a johnny rockets & put a stupid looking CGI alien in it. Like there are no robots in the OT that are so clearly modelled after a very earth like concept like a 50s diner waitress robot. This post made my day. But it's true, too - why would the people of Coruscant be nostalgic for a diner that evokes memories from the 1950s of the United States of America?
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 15:28 |
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Sebulba walks with his arms and manipulates stuff with his feet. Your move, Andy Serkis and *~practical effects~*.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 15:28 |
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Jerkface posted:Sentai guy is lovingly helping his disabled buddy to their ship, has a cool costume with a hat helmet that reminds me of a musketeer. Its a pretty evocative design and is just as visually distinct & imagination fueling as any OT / PT design. Think you're being unfair to that dude. Considering you just gushed about a little bat gremlin. Red hat alien and peg leg alien were pretty cool, I can't wait for the two dozen books of backstory they somehow get. quote:This dude's memorable. He's bizarre. He's got personality. He doesn't look like anything else that's ever been in Star Wars. Same goes for this guy: I have no idea who that guy is or which movie he was in. RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Jan 6, 2016 |
# ? Jan 6, 2016 15:31 |
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Red posted:But it's true, too - why would the people of Coruscant be nostalgic for a diner that evokes memories from the 1950s of the United States of America? Well why are they speaking English? Why aren't they *all* weird-looking aliens? This isn't meant to be a realistic simulation of an actual galaxy far far away, because that would be a garbage movie. Out of all of the stuff that's clearly copy-pasted from earth history you can't forgive this one stylistic choice for an alien restaurant because it's, what, too recent? Too recognizable?
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 15:36 |
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Shanty posted:Well why are they speaking English? Why aren't they *all* weird-looking aliens? This isn't meant to be a realistic simulation of an actual galaxy far far away, because that would be a garbage movie. Out of all of the stuff that's clearly copy-pasted from earth history you can't forgive this one stylistic choice for an alien restaurant because it's, what, too recent? Too recognizable? Yeah this is my feeling too like, the 50's diner is the thing that breaks that guy's mind? Something in a Star Wars movie cannot be "not Star Wars" because it's in a damned Star Wars film. Star Wars doesn't actually exist, it's a creation. Taken as that, there's no reason a 50's diner can't be in Star Wars because it is.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:03 |
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Shanty posted:Well why are they speaking English? Why aren't they *all* weird-looking aliens? This isn't meant to be a realistic simulation of an actual galaxy far far away, because that would be a garbage movie. Out of all of the stuff that's clearly copy-pasted from earth history you can't forgive this one stylistic choice for an alien restaurant because it's, what, too recent? Too recognizable? They tried not speaking English. It's called the first 15 minutes of the Star Wars Holiday Special. I think we can suspend our disbelief over what language they're speaking and still question why that Jedi is in a 1950's diner. If this really is a kid's movie like people like to say, Lucas should have had Obi-Wan visit his old frog friend at a Chucky Cheese. What kid is going to relate to an Eisenhower-era fast food restaurant? Jedi ball pit is where it's at.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:06 |
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That tooth rat alien in the bottom center frame looks like one of the aliens from attack the block.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:06 |
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Neil deGrasse Tyson tells me that in space there are no fifties diners
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:07 |
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homullus posted:Sebulba walks with his arms and manipulates stuff with his feet. Your move, Andy Serkis and *~practical effects~*. I'm still not sure how this and other whinge posts aren't anything more than attempting to force opunion into fact. I mean, if I see a story where an alien race walks around with its asscheeks, I'm not going to go "thats better than Jabba the Hutt!" Because [in my opinion] having a weird gimmick doesnt provide such elevation. It feels like, at this point, the PT defenders who accused OT defenders of being crotchety old men opposed to change are now themselves crotchety old men opposed to the new generation sppreciatibg practical effects and classic films.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:08 |
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Krispy Kareem posted:They tried not speaking English. It's called the first 15 minutes of the Star Wars Holiday Special. I think we can suspend our disbelief over what language they're speaking and still question why that Jedi is in a 1950's diner. A kid doesn't know what a 1950's diner is aside from the general tropes it evokes. Plus, a Chucky Cheese doesn't say anything about the story or characters in the way that some of the great posts about the diner enhancing Obi-Wan's characterization does.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:10 |
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What's the overlap, I wonder, on people who take offense to the scathing observation that Star Wars is for children with those who complain that the prequels ruined their childhood.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:12 |
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PT interpretors hating TFA are made even funnier by the fact that a significant argument in favor of their readings was that it is better to consider the good in a movie than to force oneself into a negative, unenjoyable experience. How many arguments do they actually believe, and how many were in the name of contrarianism?
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:14 |
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Neurolimal posted:PT interpretors hating TFA are made even funnier by the fact that a significant argument in favor of their readings was that it is better to consider the good in a movie than to force oneself into a negative, unenjoyable experience. Pro-PT versus Pro-OT is a false distinction, they are all able to be included in part of a larger philosophical discussion. What is at odds is moreso the act of reading vs. dismissing. You can not like a film but still engage in an active reading of it. You can also like a film while exploring it's troubling implications.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:18 |
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RBA Starblade posted:I have no idea who that guy is or which movie he was in. And I have no idea who you are. But that doesn't mean someone doesn't love you. Neurolimal posted:PT interpretors hating TFA are made even funnier by the fact that a significant argument in favor of their readings was that it is better to consider the good in a movie than to force oneself into a negative, unenjoyable experience. I liked the movie. I'm not a TFA-hater. I think we've already focused on a lot of the positives: likable characters, decent acting, BB-8's design, Han Solo was in the movie, Oscar Isaac is handsome, etc...I'm sure there's more to talk about, but I'll be honest and say the movie didn't really grab me in a major way, and I'm personally not sure what more there is to say. I guess there was some nice stuff about masks at the beginning. Despite enjoying it, I also happen to think the movie represents a really big missed opportunity. It's about as enjoyable and well-made as your average Marvel Cinematic Universe film. I enjoy those movies, too, for the most part. But after a while you run out of things to talk about, and you start wishing the filmmakers would have shown a little more imagination and ambition. And TFA has also gotten an overwhelmingly positive reception. If you believe Rotten Tomatoes, it's on par with the best of the original trilogy, films which are recognized today as innovative and enduring classics that changed cinema and left a deep, lasting impact on our culture. I think it's fair to provide a reasonable countervailing voice to what I believe to be some rather overzealous acclaim. Just like I think it's fair to provide a reasonable countervailing voice to the commonly vocalized sentiment that the prequels are irredeemably awful, lazy, and among the worst films ever to have been made. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Jan 6, 2016 |
# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:21 |
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Danger posted:Pro-PT versus Pro-OT is a false distinction, they are all able to be included in part of a larger philosophical discussion. What is at odds is moreso the act of reading vs. dismissing. You can not like a film but still engage in an active reading of it. You can also like a film while exploring it's troubling implications. This is all well and good, if you are willing to ignore the blatant fact that the vast majority of PT defenders have opposed the film and submitted poor, fact-sparse and strained readings, and a significant number of pro-OT posters have given elaborate and informative readings that are then handwaved away. It's very much a case of two groups segregating themselves to opposing tribes. (This is assuming you're disagreeing with me, I've been awake for all of 25 minutes so far so I could just be tilting at windmills right now.)
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:26 |
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Neurolimal posted:PT interpretors hating TFA are made even funnier by the fact that a significant argument in favor of their readings was that it is better to consider the good in a movie than to force oneself into a negative, unenjoyable experience. You're confused. There isn't hate attached to any Star Wars film in this thread by the people who critically engage with the prequels. Some of them have even said Episode 7 is "good" or "decent". What you're seeing is thoughtful comparisons between the prequels and Episode 7 where the latter doesn't automatically "win" the comparison.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:28 |
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Nah I don't think you can say that. Tfa is so different from Lucas Star Wars I don't know if you'll ever get a consistent correlation.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:29 |
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:You're confused. There isn't hate attached to any Star Wars film in this thread by the people who critically engage with the prequels. Some of them have even said Episode 7 is "good" or "decent". What you're seeing is thoughtful comparisons between the prequels and Episode 7 where the latter doesn't automatically "win" the comparison. Not saying you dislike something and trying to coach it in the frame of 'oh well it was okay but..." is an age-old internet(and pre-internet) tactic. When you are saying the film has no thematic or creative value and making implications about the creators being bankrupt and uncaring then you do, in fact, dislike the film regardless of what you actually state. This is doubly true on CD where the idea of turning off your brain and watching a film is generally considered something to deride. This does not apply to all criticism of TFA, mind you.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:30 |
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Cnut the Great posted:And I have no idea who you are. But that doesn't mean someone doesn't love you. I was hoping to learn more though!
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:32 |
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Waffles Inc. posted:Yeah this is my feeling too like, the 50's diner is the thing that breaks that guy's mind? Something in a Star Wars movie cannot be "not Star Wars" because it's in a damned Star Wars film. So you're left asking why this jarring aesthetic choice for the diner and the two most plausible answers is that it either simply tickled Lucas's fancy, or it was a deliberate reference to something concrete like Cnut the Great suggested. In either case, Lucas cracks the Star Wars universe's verisimilitude. It'd be like Gandalf comparing Sauron to Hitler in Lord of the Rings.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:38 |
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ImpAtom posted:Not saying you dislike something and trying to coach it in the frame of 'oh well it was okay but..." is an age-old internet(and pre-internet) tactic. When you are saying the film has no thematic or creative value and making implications about the creators being bankrupt and uncaring then you do, in fact, dislike the film regardless of what you actually state. This is doubly true on CD where the idea of turning off your brain and watching a film is generally considered something to deride. This seems weirdly aggressive. A: "I liked the movie, here are some thoughts on consumerism or whatever." B: "I'm not falling for this age-old internet tactic. You clearly DON'T like this movie and are simply trolling." A: "Here are some more thoughts, maybe Rey is really the bad guy??? Thought the movie was good btw." B: "Admit that you didn't actually like it or get out."
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:39 |
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# ? May 14, 2024 02:21 |
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Neurolimal posted:I'm still not sure how this and other whinge posts aren't anything more than attempting to force opunion into fact. I mean, if I see a story where an alien race walks around with its asscheeks, I'm not going to go "thats better than Jabba the Hutt!" Because [in my opinion] having a weird gimmick doesnt provide such elevation. Speaking of forcing opinion onto fact, in my anecdotal experience, less than 4% of the new generation "appreciating practical effects" can even tell the difference between practical effects and CG in Star Wars films. They (you?) literally do not know what they (you?) are talking about, turning to one specious explanation after another for why the prequels are inferior. You actually don't need an excuse to dislike the prequels at all, but if you want some better ones, try: "I prefer stories of heroes triumphing over evil" "I prefer stories of hope over ones of defeat" "I enjoyed Anakin's redemption more than his downfall" "I enjoyed the lived-in/utilitarian look of the OT more" "I enjoyed the Force as a mysterious power held by a handful of people" These are obviously all reasons to like TFA more, also. Let go of the idea that your dislike needs to be grounded in "fact"! Your other point is a good one: the fact that Sebulba walks on his hands doesn't make it a "good" creature design, and I wasn't implying it was. I was pointing out that insisting on the superiority of practical effects and privileging them in your production design will necessarily limit what you are capable of doing in a movie. You won't see as imaginative creature design in future Star Wars as long as the fan base is tilting at the CG windmill.
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# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:40 |