Waffles Inc. posted:

for fucks sake, the medical droid who helps luke in ESB is more interesting insofar as he makes a larger impression

Cnut the Great posted:

Cnut the Great posted:

Strangely enough, even the OT had better practical aliens than this. Even the prequels had better practical aliens than this. I can only conclude that the atmosphere in TFA's design department must have been intrinsically creatively stifling. That's usually what happens when you place arbitrary limits on creative peoples' imaginations.

Kulkasha posted:

I liked the cool slowdroid walking out of Maz's bar.

Soggy Cereal posted:

No, it probably doesn't "say" anything, other than "this is a weird, diverse place." Which is probably why there aren't lingering camera shots on the ~practical effects~ - they're just incidental, being used to tell a story.

corn in the fridge posted:

I still don't understand this premise that the new film picks up where ESB left off, thematically or whatever. Obviously the events of RotJ still happened. So nothing changed. Isn't it telling that the victory at the end of it was ultimately a hollow one?

Soggy Cereal posted:

The ANH cantina seems more interesting because of the place it occupies in the story. It's Luke's first introduction to the wider world that he knows nothing about, a world that is dark, violent, and scary. The ugly guy who confronts him is a Threshold Guardian in the Hero's Journey model.

This part in the story, for Rey and Finn, is taken up by the Rathtars (shoggoths.) I know you guys don't like them either, but there you go.

Maz's castle is equally interesting to me because it is a deliberate reversal of the cantina. It's a Meeting with the Goddess scenario, where a seemingly immortal woman gives divine boons and weapons in preparation for what's ahead. The only scary thing that Finn and Rey face in this cantina is themselves.

Han wants his pupils to believe that it's a dangerous place, and he warns them not to stare at anything - he's pining for when he stayed at "real" cantinas, which were dangerous and creepy affairs. But really he's speaking in willful ignorance - he's ignoring that the Rebel Alliance changed anything for the galaxy, and made it a brighter, happier place. Which is also why this is when Maz tries to recruit him to helping Leia fight the dark side. He's living for his younger days when he didn't have to worry about anything but Jabba. Jabba is gone, though, replaced thematically by Maz.

Like SMG says, this movie starts from the position at the end of Empire Strikes Back, not Return of the Jedi. But I think this comes from the characters' behavior, not an attempt to retcon or ignore what happened.


edit: Just thought of another cool thing that goes along with this - Han is hauling Rathtars to sell to a king. As we know from Jabba, rulers like to have crazy man-eating pets. Han misses Jabba. It's "the only thing [he's] good at."

As for the specifics of costume design for the aliens, I don't think it means anything other than worldbuilding (my immersion!). In ANH the costumers weren't really given any specific direction, and were told to just make aliens. IIRC they were all put together very quickly. Of course George Lucas selected some and declined others, but it's not like he had a whole lot to work with.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

The alien designs in TFA - and we are talking about design here, not just "I liek it" - are weak because they do not evoke concepts.

Jerkface posted:

Throwbacks, references, of course. Is anything as blatant as a literal 50s diner waitress robot that even talks like a 50s diner waitress? In the OT? God that loving diner just gets my goat every time. I honestly dont think theres anything like it in the OT, but I am sure some enterprising PT defender will bring something up (which is ok, I enjoy all the debates!)

corn in the fridge posted:

I always thought the 50s diner scene was more of a character moment for Obi-wan, as in he probably frequents these places often and he really enjoys it, possibly some sort of pretentious prince among the peasants thing. The likeness of the diner to that of an earth diner was irrelevant to the scene but added a bit of extra charm imo

Cnut the Great posted:

Also:

[ stuff ]

What actually happened is that the filmmakers came up with ideas that happened to interest them, and then did their best to get those ideas onto the screen using whatever method made the most sense. The main benefit of CGI being an option is that the PT filmmakers weren't limited in their imaginations--which is a good thing. Imagination is actually good. (A controversial stance in this day and age, I know.)

TFA's filmmakers', on the other hand, clearly were quite limited in their imaginations, most likely due to their choice to base most of their design decisions around whether or not something could be achieved using practical effects. And it shows, because TFA is a very visually unimaginative movie. This is just sad:



Strangely enough, even the OT had better practical aliens than this. Even the prequels had better practical aliens than this. I can only conclude that the atmosphere in TFA's design department must have been intrinsically creatively stifling. That's usually what happens when you place arbitrary limits on creative peoples' imaginations.

Jerkface posted:

dexters diner is the most egregious thing in the prequels. My problem with it is not that a diner exists in star wars, but that it was realized as an Earth 50s diner including an alien wearing strangely earth like clothing and robots modeled after 50s diner waitresses. Instead of being a diner, but making sense in the star wars universe (like how Maz's watering hole & the mos eisley cantina look like plausible bars for their environs) this loving 50s diner looks like someone took a johnny rockets & put a stupid looking CGI alien in it. Like there are no robots in the OT that are so clearly modelled after a very earth like concept like a 50s diner waitress robot.

Obi-wan meeting an old friend whos an alien, sure. Alien wears apron & wife beater despite having 4 arms and being a weird frog guy? gently caress off.

Jerkface posted:

Sentai guy is lovingly helping his disabled buddy to their ship, has a cool costume with a hat helmet that reminds me of a musketeer. Its a pretty evocative design and is just as visually distinct & imagination fueling as any OT / PT design. Think you're being unfair to that dude. Considering you just gushed about a little bat gremlin.

quote:

This dude's memorable. He's bizarre. He's got personality. He doesn't look like anything else that's ever been in Star Wars. Same goes for this guy:

Red posted:

But it's true, too - why would the people of Coruscant be nostalgic for a diner that evokes memories from the 1950s of the United States of America?

Shanty posted:

Well why are they speaking English? Why aren't they *all* weird-looking aliens? This isn't meant to be a realistic simulation of an actual galaxy far far away, because that would be a garbage movie. Out of all of the stuff that's clearly copy-pasted from earth history you can't forgive this one stylistic choice for an alien restaurant because it's, what, too recent? Too recognizable?

Shanty posted:

Well why are they speaking English? Why aren't they *all* weird-looking aliens? This isn't meant to be a realistic simulation of an actual galaxy far far away, because that would be a garbage movie. Out of all of the stuff that's clearly copy-pasted from earth history you can't forgive this one stylistic choice for an alien restaurant because it's, what, too recent? Too recognizable?

homullus posted:

Sebulba walks with his arms and manipulates stuff with his feet. Your move, Andy Serkis and *~practical effects~*.

Krispy Kareem posted:

They tried not speaking English. It's called the first 15 minutes of the Star Wars Holiday Special. I think we can suspend our disbelief over what language they're speaking and still question why that Jedi is in a 1950's diner.

If this really is a kid's movie like people like to say, Lucas should have had Obi-Wan visit his old frog friend at a Chucky Cheese. What kid is going to relate to an Eisenhower-era fast food restaurant? Jedi ball pit is where it's at.

Neurolimal posted:

PT interpretors hating TFA are made even funnier by the fact that a significant argument in favor of their readings was that it is better to consider the good in a movie than to force oneself into a negative, unenjoyable experience.

How many arguments do they actually believe, and how many were in the name of contrarian ism?

RBA Starblade posted:

I have no idea who that guy is or which movie he was in.

Neurolimal posted:

PT interpretors hating TFA are made even funnier by the fact that a significant argument in favor of their readings was that it is better to consider the good in a movie than to force oneself into a negative, unenjoyable experience.

How many arguments do they actually believe, and how many were in the name of contrarianism?

Danger posted:

Pro-PT versus Pro-OT is a false distinction, they are all able to be included in part of a larger philosophical discussion. What is at odds is moreso the act of reading vs. dismissing. You can not like a film but still engage in an active reading of it. You can also like a film while exploring it's troubling implications.

Neurolimal posted:

PT interpretors hating TFA are made even funnier by the fact that a significant argument in favor of their readings was that it is better to consider the good in a movie than to force oneself into a negative, unenjoyable experience.

How many arguments do they actually believe, and how many were in the name of contrarianism?

Terrorist Fistbump posted:

You're confused. There isn't hate attached to any Star Wars film in this thread by the people who critically engage with the prequels. Some of them have even said Episode 7 is "good" or "decent". What you're seeing is thoughtful comparisons between the prequels and Episode 7 where the latter doesn't automatically "win" the comparison.

Cnut the Great posted:

And I have no idea who you are. But that doesn't mean someone doesn't love you.

Waffles Inc. posted:

Yeah this is my feeling too like, the 50's diner is the thing that breaks that guy's mind? Something in a Star Wars movie cannot be "not Star Wars" because it's in a damned Star Wars film.

Star Wars doesn't actually exist, it's a creation. Taken as that, there's no reason a 50's diner can't be in Star Wars because it is.

ImpAtom posted:

Not saying you dislike something and trying to coach it in the frame of 'oh well it was okay but..." is an age-old internet(and pre-internet) tactic. When you are saying the film has no thematic or creative value and making implications about the creators being bankrupt and uncaring then you do, in fact, dislike the film regardless of what you actually state. This is doubly true on CD where the idea of turning off your brain and watching a film is generally considered something to deride.

This does not apply to all criticism of TFA, mind you.

Neurolimal posted:

I'm still not sure how this and other whinge posts aren't anything more than attempting to force opunion into fact. I mean, if I see a story where an alien race walks around with its asscheeks, I'm not going to go "thats better than Jabba the Hutt!" Because [in my opinion] having a weird gimmick doesnt provide such elevation.

It feels like, at this point, the PT defenders who accused OT defenders of being crotchety old men opposed to change are now themselves crotchety old men opposed to the new generation sppreciatibg practical effects and classic films.