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gohmak posted:Death of the author. Only applies in this case if you assume Lucas didn't intend this very very obvious interpretation of the Jedi Order. Now, while I do think Lucas is a fairly flawed person, and I do think the PT movies range from boring beyond to merely of average entertainment value, I don't think Lucas is a completely inept idiot. NecroMonster fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 03:04
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If Lucas changed his mind it was somewhere around ESB. Yoda never really changed as a character philosophically.
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Jan 7, 2016 03:08
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Watching tpm again, it starts a little slow, but once they get to Tatooine it really is a good movie. The movie could not be more blatant about how hosed ho the Jedi are. At one point Qui Gon says greed can be a powerful ally. It looks great in HD.
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Jan 7, 2016 03:16
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euphronius posted:Watching tpm again, it starts a little slow, but once they get to Tatooine it really is a good movie. The movie could not be more blatant about how hosed ho the Jedi are. At one point Qui Gon says greed can be a powerful ally. I always kind of thought Qui Gon was supposed to be the pragmatist in a room full of legalistic stooges. I mean the Jedi are all like, "this kid is too old and too powerful, this is highly irregular" and Qui Gon is like "it's better to have the buffalo in the teepee pissing out of it than to have the buffalo outside the teepee pissing into it." General Dog fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 03:21
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He says like two times "lol I'm not here to free slaves" And then does free a slave ... Who happens to have a midiclorian Count over 20,000.
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Jan 7, 2016 03:23
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I like how Qui-gon, who is a bit of an idiot and less than great person, is the first guy to "discover" force ghosts.
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Jan 7, 2016 03:35
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NecroMonster posted:Well Lucas himself disallowed any portrayal of Jedi as evil or even morally gray within all EU materials for, last I checked, the whole time he was in possession of the Star Wars IP. He was also vocally critical of EU stories that attempted to introduce moral subtly or nuance into Star Wars. Hell he even re-edited his own film to, famously, remove a bit of nuance from the portrayal of a character that I'm sure I don't need to even say the name of for people to get this reference. This is most evident in the game Knights of the Old Republic 2, where the lead writer openly admitted that he didnt care for Star Wars and used a wizened old sith lord to project his opinion on morally grey scenarios that the Jedi are not instantly right on. The game was, without warning, cut back about 3 months of dev time, and as far as I can recall is the only piece of EU where Lucasarts has stated "no, that's not canon" I guess Lucas is playing the long con? Long enough that submissions which treat the films as propaganda are heavily punished?
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Jan 7, 2016 03:36
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computer parts posted:There's absolutely no reason why Qui-Gon needed to die in Episode 1. Yeah that's a missed opportunity. New characters that are introduced are bumped off quickly - Qui Gon, Darth Maul, Jango Fett, Dooku. Some of the new guys make it to the third movie - Padme, Windu, Jar Jar. However, it would've been nice if Ep. 1 took place closer, in time, to Ep. 2 and more of the new character stuck around through the series.
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Jan 7, 2016 03:37
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Neurolimal posted:This is most evident in the game Knights of the Old Republic 2, where the lead writer openly admitted that he didnt care for Star Wars and used a wizened old sith lord to project his opinion on morally grey scenarios that the Jedi are not instantly right on. Without warning meaning "oh hey the first game was such a success we want the next one done in time for the holidays".
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Jan 7, 2016 03:40
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NecroMonster posted:I like how Qui-gon, who is a bit of an idiot and less than great person, is the first guy to "discover" force ghosts. He was denied entry into Force Heaven because of the time he cheated on that dice toss with Watto.
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Jan 7, 2016 03:42
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Yeah, that wasn't "that big" of an issue. I mean, it was lovely. But it's more surprising the games story got the go ahead in the first place, especially when you consider that Avellone sort of wrote it as a big gently caress you to Star Wars with the intention that it wouldn't actually get Oked.
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Jan 7, 2016 03:42
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Neurolimal posted:This is most evident in the game Knights of the Old Republic 2, where the lead writer openly admitted that he didnt care for Star Wars and used a wizened old sith lord to project his opinion on morally grey scenarios that the Jedi are not instantly right on. The only reason KOTOR 2 was bumped up was to get it out by Christmas. The posts that got cut as a result were mostly dealing with HK47 plot.
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Jan 7, 2016 03:43
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Qui-Gon should have been a woman.
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Jan 7, 2016 03:44
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Hollismason posted:Qui-Gon should have been a woman. Oh, then we could have Mary Magdalene stealing Jesus from Mary imagery.
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Jan 7, 2016 03:49
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Every Star War has a death star in it, but some are more abstract than others. In The Empire Strikes Back, it's the rebels' ion cannon, though the imagery is suggestive of Luke's disillusionment rather than the weapon's context in the broader galaxy. In The Phantom Menace, it's the droid control ship and the jets of plasma underneath Theed. In Attack of the Clones, it's the cloners' laboratory on Kamino, and there's tons of Death Star imagery on Geonosis, including some more droid control ships that get blown up before they can take off, plus of course the actual Death Star schematics. In Revenge of the Sith, it's Coruscant. Starkiller Base is an obvious continuation of this tradition. But as always we get more out of it by looking at how it differs. A poster upthread mentioned it was like a hollowed-out Endor. It's effectively a cyborg planet, connecting it to another recurring motif, the duality of nature and technology. Preceding cyborgs in the series - Grievous and Vader, as well as Clone Wars' Darth Maul - are singular and dangerous, because they stand outside of the established order that mandates separation and opposition between organic and mechanical beings. Thus through Starkiller, the First Order achieves a uniquely dangerous position between hegemon and insurgent, non-state actors striking outside of their borders. Cybernetics have also been associated with the prolonging of life. Or undeath, if you'd rather. General Grievous was just a heart inside a tin man as he went around subduing worlds while he suffered from the whooping cough, Darth Maul escaped from Landfill Planet using his fancy spider legs, and Skywalkers can take a licking and keep on ticking by incorporating more and more metal limbs into their meat bodies. Using abilities some consider unnatural, Snoke kept the Empire from dying and made its corpse do his bidding. (Snoke represents Disney in this metaphor.)
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Jan 7, 2016 03:54
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MonsterEnvy posted:Watching the Clone Wars were Dooku is the main villain gives you a fair amount of respect for the guy. This is how Dooku should have fought in Attack of the Clones, with a unique style. Instead he just uses two hands like everyone else in the movie even though he has that curved fencing ligthsaber.
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Jan 7, 2016 03:57
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Best Qui-Gon interpretation: http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0001.html
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Jan 7, 2016 03:58
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NecroMonster posted:Only applies in this case if you assume Lucas didn't intend this very very obvious interpretation of the Jedi Order. Meet the hooker Geroge Lucas selected to be cloned 600,000 times for the Storm Trooper Shore Leave special!
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Jan 7, 2016 04:00
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Bongo Bill posted:Every Star War has a death star in it, but some are more abstract than others. In The Empire Strikes Back, it's the rebels' ion cannon, though the imagery is suggestive of Luke's disillusionment rather than the weapon's context in the broader galaxy. In The Phantom Menace, it's the droid control ship and the jets of plasma underneath Theed. In Attack of the Clones, it's the cloners' laboratory on Kamino, and there's tons of Death Star imagery on Geonosis, including some more droid control ships that get blown up before they can take off, plus of course the actual Death Star schematics. In Revenge of the Sith, it's Coruscant. You forget about Lobot. A Cyborg, a savior, pure as driven snow, a man with two brains, one flesh and one silicon. Also Luke is a Cyborg but who cares about that guy.
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Jan 7, 2016 04:04
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greatn posted:You forget about Lobot. A Cyborg, a savior, pure as driven snow, a man with two brains, one flesh and one silicon. Also Luke is a Cyborg but who cares about that guy. I didn't forget Luke, but I did forget Lobot. Cyborgs are powerful and unique.
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Jan 7, 2016 04:08
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NecroMonster posted:Luke is the only example of a Force sensitive being left largely to their own means leading to anything other than crazy evilness, all other Force users the Jedi order fails to find and indoctrinate at a very young age become crazy evil darksiders. Luke was well on his way there in Jedi. Choking out pig aliens and such.
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Jan 7, 2016 04:23
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By the way, Star Wars itself combines natural (optical) and mechanical (digital) effects.
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Jan 7, 2016 04:25
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MonsterEnvy posted:Watching the Clone Wars were Dooku is the main villain gives you a fair amount of respect for the guy. Man, clone wars seems cool as hell.
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Jan 7, 2016 04:28
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I've liked every episode I've watched so far that doesn't contain Jar Jar and even liked a couple of parts of one episode that did. He comes off as a pathetically stupid natural disaster in this by the way.
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Jan 7, 2016 04:32
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NecroMonster posted:Well Lucas himself disallowed any portrayal of Jedi as evil or even morally gray within all EU materials for, last I checked, the whole time he was in possession of the Star Wars IP. He was also vocally critical of EU stories that attempted to introduce moral subtly or nuance into Star Wars. Hell he even re-edited his own film to, famously, remove a bit of nuance from the portrayal of a character that I'm sure I don't need to even say the name of for people to get this reference. Kyle Katarn is kind of morally gray but it's a video game so I dunno.
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Jan 7, 2016 04:33
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The games, that feature playable jedi and player choice, get something of a pass here, for obvious reasons.
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Jan 7, 2016 04:36
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All the "Vaapad" stuff and everything that happens from the New Jedi Order series on seems pretty "morally ambiguous" to me. I mean, I only know what I've read about them rather than having actually read them, but I'm pretty sure I remember there being a period of time where you find out Luke's Jedi Order has actually been following the teachings of a Sith. Plus, there's Quinlan Vos.
Beeez fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 04:46
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I'm glad the conversation drifted back to the prequels, because I'm still trying to figure out if the Jedi were supposed to be evil, just misguided, or actually good. In the original trilogy they're actually good. Obi Wan half lies to Luke about Anakin/Vader and that is pretty much the extent of him doing anything wrong. (Interestingly in some of the earlier drafts, Luke isn't just a little upset about it, he becomes enraged and tries to attack ghost Obi Wan with a lightsaber over this.) They are 100% correct about their own religion, how real it is, and how it works. You're clearly supposed to believe what Yoda tells you. When Lucas wants to deliver his homebrew ancient wisdom, it is through Yoda. ("Do or do not, there is no try.") Even Darth Vader is presented as superior to the other Imperials because of his spiritual knowledge, corrupted as it is. The Force Awakens returns to this model for better or worse. With the prequels, it's seemingly a given that the Jedi are not good, it's just a question of how much their actions come from stupidity, or evil. Midichlorian obsession, the creation and leadership of a clone army, blind arrogance, weird celibacy rules, the whole deal. There are a few theories: 1. The Jedi are actually supposed to be good, and this is what Lucas thinks good is. Which means Lucas is a weirdo and/or bad at making movies. (prevailing fan theory, RLM theory) 2. The Jedi are supposed to be mostly good with human foibles. I think this is the truth, but it doesn't work because they come off as either too weird, too evil or too stupid. 3. The Jedi actually are evil, good riddance. (this thread) If theory 1 is right, the prequels are bad except maybe as a form of outsider art. If theory 2 is right, the prequels have the right idea but struggle with the execution, which is a huge problem because this is what the prequels are about. If theory 3 is right, the prequels are among the darkest films ever made, an open embrace of nihilism and an actual insult to anyone who thought the Jedi were good guys growing up. Which is cool if that's your thing. This is the main reason I do not like the prequels. I've come around on some things about them due to the diligence of some fans, some in this thread and some elsewhere. But this still ruins them for me, particularly episode 2. By making the Jedi weird, stupid, or evil, the series goes from tragic to depressing. We all knew that it had a downer ending - Anakin becoming Darth Vader, the Jedi being destroyed, and the Republic turning into the Empire should be enough. Of course everyone wanted to see this happen, either for continuity or to see how it unfolded. What we received was Anakin, the Jedi, and the Republic not really even being worth saving.
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Jan 7, 2016 05:09
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The Jedi Order is an institution that prevents its members from acting ethically even though they often want to and would be good at it.
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Jan 7, 2016 05:11
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Wait did the Jedi actually commission the clone army? I thought I remembered that being done falsely under one of their names, and then they said well gently caress it there handing us a clone army guess we should use it.
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Jan 7, 2016 05:15
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greatn posted:Wait did the Jedi actually commission the clone army? I thought I remembered that being done falsely under one of their names, and then they said well gently caress it there handing us a clone army guess we should use it. The clone army was commissioned by Count Dooku, using the assumed name Darth Tyranus and pretending to be the aide of a Jedi Master whom he murdered and whose identity he stole. The Jedi did not initiate the creation of the army, though they took command of it when its existence was discovered.
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Jan 7, 2016 05:17
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Noam Chomsky posted:Man, clone wars seems cool as hell. It's got Lucas' charm all over it. And it's legitimately one of the most gorgeous TV shows I've ever seen. You always get at least one great action set piece in every episode too. I love it. I'm dragging my feet on Rebels because nobody is pouring a dump truck full of money into every episode (like they should).
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Jan 7, 2016 05:17
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"Ready made slaves? We'll take those thanks."
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Jan 7, 2016 05:18
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Soggy Cereal posted:There are a few theories: I think its between two and three. The Jedi are not evil the same way Palpatine is, but he presented temptations for them and they gave in over and over. The Jedi are not Devils themselves, but they're listening to the Devil on their shoulders. Soggy Cereal posted:You're clearly supposed to believe what Yoda tells you. When Lucas wants to deliver his homebrew ancient wisdom, it is through Yoda. The problem is not what Yoda or the others say, its what they do. Their actions contradict their philosophizing over and over again. Soggy Cereal posted:Obi Wan half lies to Luke about Anakin/Vader and that is pretty much the extent of him doing anything wrong. Ignoring the PT for a moment, what is the reason he gives for lying? Does he ever explain himself, like when he comes back as a ghost? I don't remember. With the PT in mind it seems like he's ashamed.
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Jan 7, 2016 05:28
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"We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers." Meaning of course that they're calling dibs on being the commanders. I still laugh at Luke asking if Obi Wan fought in the Clone Wars. "Actually the first engagement of the Clone Wars was to rescue me, because I was the one who found out there were clones, and they sent me to find out that there would be Clone Wars. Also I was the primary military leader for most of the major battles of the Clone Wars. Also I helped kill both enemy commanders in hand to hand combat. So yeah, you could say that."
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Jan 7, 2016 05:31
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I just saw it. Greg Gruenberg is so fat now that I'm worried about his health. He's got like a Jorge Garcia thing going on and I don't like it.
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Jan 7, 2016 05:33
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The Jedi of the prequels are definitely supposed to be good guys but increasingly misguided. In episode 1 they stand by while slavery happens because it's out of their jurisdiction (while Qui-Gon pulls a bunch of shady poo poo to get his way with Watto) they train Anakin despite weird feelings because of their Hubris. In the next episode they've slipped further down the moral slope by using a clone army. One of my favorite RLM moments is when he is exasperated because Yoda in ESB says "weapons not make one great" while Obi Wan says "this lightsaber is your life" in AotC. He reverses the logic though: Yoda has learned from the fall of the Jedi and now knows that sword fighting mother fuckers and waging wars isn't the path to greatness. He has learned through painful personal experience to become the wise Yoda we know. Hell, even then, does anyone think Luke's decision to go save his friends is the wrong one in ESB? I always read it as Yoda still being cynical in wanting Luke to abandon his friends to eventually win in the long term.
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Jan 7, 2016 05:40
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That lady with the glasses should have been Bea Arthur's character from the Christmas special. Total missed opportunity.
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Jan 7, 2016 05:42
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Kart Barfunkel posted:It's got Lucas' charm all over it. And it's legitimately one of the most gorgeous TV shows I've ever seen. You always get at least one great action set piece in every episode too. I love it. Yeah Rebels started off really great and then kinda weakened as it went on. I watched the first few episodes of season 2 but I have yet to continue but not because I dislike the show. I will watch Clone Wars when I get the chance.
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Jan 7, 2016 05:42
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Lord Krangdar posted:I think its between two and three. The Jedi are not evil the same way Palpatine is, but he presented temptations for them and they gave in over and over. The Jedi are not Devils themselves, but they're listening to the Devil on their shoulders. He feeds Luke a line of bullshit about it being true "from a certain point of view" that Vader murdered Anakin. He doesn't even have the decency to explain his reasoning for with holding the truth like Yoda did ("not ready for the burden were you").
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Jan 7, 2016 05:44
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