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Salt Fish posted:As far as I'm aware the supreme court ruled at some point that sedition rulings require a clear and present danger that the incitement will effectively cause unlawful action. These guys called on other patriots to rise up and as far as I can tell nobody else did. Based on the existence of the clear and present litmus test I would say that success of incitement is in fact a legal requirement for sedition. If there aren't a clear an present danger, then why is the town shut down and the feds stationed at the school? If they are just idiots camping in the middle of nowhere, why is there a response at all? The response doesn't match the mindset.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:09
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Venom Snake posted:You can be progressive and still have a dim view of treason. Hard to make a socialist paradise with traitors tearing it down. I have to admit, I did laugh at this one. A little dramatic, don't you think?
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Jan 7, 2016 22:10
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Or is this were rightwing people always assume the military and enforcement wing of the government are leftists kryptonite?
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Jan 7, 2016 22:10
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LGD posted:I'm just trying to figure out if people in this thread would still be in favor of their being killed though I must have missed that day of progressive indoctrination when we all agreed that crimes don't matter and we shouldn't prosecute them.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:11
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Lotka Volterra posted:I have to admit, I did laugh at this one. A little dramatic, don't you think? I'm just trying to spell things out as plainly as possible.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:11
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i'm confused why you would try to use this argument on me when i'm pointing out that there is a solid precedent for these things to end in prosecutions, a fact which people choose to ignore so that they can complain about preferential treatment Because in 99.9% of cases, when the person does the same thing they are being charged/investigated/prosecuted for, it expedites the process so they can't pull it off a third time. What makes this case so different that it has to happen repeatedly to warrant the average response?
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Jan 7, 2016 22:12
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cunny mcalister posted:If there aren't a clear an present danger, then why is the town shut down and the feds stationed at the school? If they are just idiots camping in the middle of nowhere, why is there a response at all? The response doesn't match the mindset. can you cite the source that demonstrates burns has been shut down and feds (troops?) have been stationed at the school, and what exactly that means? cunny mcalister posted:Because in 99.9% of cases, when the person does the same thing they are being charged/investigated/prosecuted for, it expedites the process so they can't pull it off a third time. What makes this case so different that it has to happen repeatedly to warrant the average response? so you're saying that members of this occupation committed crimes at some other occupation? who are they and what were the charges? surely you must have some credible, factual information underpinning these claims
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Jan 7, 2016 22:12
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LGD posted:I'm just trying to figure out if people in this thread would still be in favor of their being killed though Part of violent resistance is accepting that you are not going to abide by the system of your real or perceived oppression. They accepted they were breaking the law in both cases, and they chose not to recognize the institution charging them. I agree that by any standard that says the Bundy guys are criminals, so was the violent resistance for civil rights, but I don't see how you could argue those who violently resisted for civil rights weren't criminals. Just because they were right? It's not something that should be encouraged or accepted by the state, and it's more an act of selflessness in striving to bring about change at the expense of your personal wellbeing than it is a legally justified action to take. There's no get out of jail free card based on motive. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 22:13
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cunny mcalister posted:If there aren't a clear an present danger, then why is the town shut down and the feds stationed at the school? If they are just idiots camping in the middle of nowhere, why is there a response at all? The response doesn't match the mindset. Honestly right now, with the impressive restraint that the FBI is showing, they aren't a clear and present danger to anyone. They're just some stubborn dudes sitting in a cabin in the middle of nowhere.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:16
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LGD posted:I'm just trying to figure out if people in this thread would still be in favor of their being killed though Beneath the thin veneer, they're just conservative reactionaries rooting for a team, they'll jump ship once they get old enough to complain about taxes and loudly proclaim how stupid they were for being liberal when they were young.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:16
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Mormon Star Wars posted:Because they won't be arrested in a month, or ever, much like the people at the Bundy ranch that threatened hotel employees in the nearby town for working at a hotel that the feds had the temerity to stay at. They won't even be fined. It's a bit soon to say "ever". FBI investigations of organized, centralized militia groups with defined plans to carry out unprovoked violence usually take well over a year - the feds, unlike local cops, tend to be slow, thorough, patient, and willing to keep their cards close to their chest and not reveal their investigation till after it's done. There's no reason that an investigation of random yokels with guns and violent rhetoric would go faster, especially since there's far less to build a case on. cunny mcalister posted:If I'm that far off base in understanding how the law in a unified country should work, then please help me. I literally don't understand why these should be considered different cases other than the authority enforcing the law. The US has three major levels of law enforcement (basically. it's pretty complicated), each one of which is largely independent of the other two. There's local police departments, which mostly hand out traffic tickets on local roads, harass black people for no reason, and impose the mayor's will (unless the mayor is a Democrat). There's state police, who hand out traffic tickets on the highway. And there's the FBI, which busts white supremacist groups and organized crime gangs while investigating hate crimes and civil rights abuses committed by police departments and government agencies. Mr. Wookums posted:The FBI itself is only 50 years removed from performing those civil rights violations including loving with OWS Considering that literal segregation was only outlawed 51 years ago, I'm not surprised that the FBI was racist 50 years ago! Their role, purpose, and doctrine have changed a lot since the days when it was still okay to bring live ammo to suppress a protest. And rest assured, they're surveilling and infiltrating militias too, they didn't just single out OWS for equal treatment. Radbot posted:If the FBI teaching Muslim boys how to make bombs and then arresting them is legitimate, arresting these dudes for conspiring to overthrow the government is far, far more legitimate. "His diatribes evince nothing more than his own hatred for – perhaps even desire to fight or kill – law enforcement; this is not the same as seditious conspiracy." - a real-life federal judge throwing out all charges against an armed militia group dedicated to war and revolution against the US government (which they called the "Army of Satan"). This is probably the number one reason why the feds are so slow to arrests against the Bundy militiamen, by the way. Failing to arrest militia members may look bad, but arresting them only for the charges to get thrown out by the judge outright legitimizes the militias. The feds aren't going to move forward with anything less than an ironclad case, and they're not going to settle for a sentence of a year or two for minor crimes. Which means that the feds aren't going to prosecute anyone for just the Bundy standoff, since if I'm reading this right, the maximum federal sentence for someone who "forcibly assaults, resists, opposes, impedes, intimidates, or interferes" with a government official without making physical contact or inflicting injury is one year. That's why the FBI isn't just going to prosecute them for their role in the standoff - they're also digging into the past of each and every one of them, carefully surveilling them for any hint of escalation or further plans, and identifying which ones are the best targets for potential future stings. Hell, this could even be one of them. Law enforcement already outright stated in one of the press conferences that there were undercover agents around.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:17
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edit: F'd up douple post
cunny mcalister fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 22:17
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Main Paineframe posted:Sounds like a good way to make sure that the next militia standoff involves militants cobbling together IEDs and taking hostages (for "self-defense", of course), rather than sitting in an empty building watching Fox News and comparing cowboy hats. There's not a preponderance of UXO sitting around the USA so whatever McVeigh wannabe fertilizer concoction they manage to cook up will probably get them snagged by law enforcement before they can go play Mormon Gear Squalid: Steak Eater at the nature preserve.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:17
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LGD posted:You refer to them as "hicks" in this post and nothing about the media coverage or general response to this incident would lead someone to the conclusion that they're anything but adherents of an extremely unpopular political philosophy. How is that not an unpopular political minority? You mean those very same right wing militias that had the Republican Party go to bat for them and bury the DHS for reporting on their increasing numbers and plans? Those militias? quote:House Minority Leader John Boehner called the report "Offensive and Unacceptable" and demanded an "explanation for why she has abandoned using the term ‘terrorist’ to describe those, such as al Qaeda, who are plotting overseas to kill innocent Americans, while her own Department is using the same term to describe American citizens who disagree with the direction Washington Democrats are taking our nation." quote:What happened to your DHS unit?
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Jan 7, 2016 22:17
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Why can't we just enjoy this ride? These guys are living the militia fantasy and it's obviously poo poo and nobody cares about them.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:18
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Popular Thug Drink posted:can you cite the source that demonstrates burns has been shut down and feds (troops?) have been stationed at the school, and what exactly that means? http://kuow.org/post/schools-wide-swath-around-burns-close-down-security First link found states school is closed for safety purposes. I read in this thread that Federal Agents (who knows how you want me to address them?) were using it initially as an HQ. That may be wrong, but I can't remember the last time a school was closed for safety reasons because everything was okay. cunny mcalister fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 22:18
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:Why can't we just enjoy this ride? These guys are living the militia fantasy and it's obviously poo poo and nobody cares about them. Because the right doesn't like the circle jerk, and they feel they shouldn't be the butt of anyone's jokes when Trump is so powerful.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:19
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cunny mcalister posted:First link found states school is closed for safety purposes. so by the town has been shut down you mean the schools were closed for a week, and by feds have been stationed you mean a monitoring and hq has been set up as is standard pretty much in every federal response to some kind of occupation or protest cunny mcalister posted:I can't remember the last time a school was closed for safety reasons because everything was okay uh it happens all the time. a couple weeks ago the entire los angeles school district shut down because of some thinly credible email threats. it turns out people are really protective of their children what with all of the mass shootings and whatnot
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Jan 7, 2016 22:21
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LGD posted:I'm just trying to figure out if people in this thread would still be in favor of their being killed though I'm not in favor of them being killed or harmed outside of a courtroom. I just don't agree with the idea that Ruby Ridge / Waco having happened means they should have a blank check to commit other crimes (like threatening townspeople) because the government is scared of looking bad again. People keep saying "Let them get bored and leave and arrest them later," and this is a good solution that isn't what happened at the Bundy ranch and probably won't happen here since it's the same people.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:22
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Mormon Star Wars posted:I'm not in favor of them being killed ... outside of a courtroom. uh
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Jan 7, 2016 22:23
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CommieGIR posted:http://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/2016/01/05/twitter-account-oregon-organizer-bundy-suspended/78315656/ It was a hoax account. Filthy Hans posted:arguing that while the Ammons are out of line, they have a point about gov't tyranny regarding land management abuse. If they're out of line, then how do they have a point about land management abuse by the government? Finally got to the end of the thread. I can't believe that apparently they're letting these guys get supplies.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:24
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Doctor Butts posted:It was a hoax account. I think that its pretty obvious that a person could both make good point and then act inappropriately/criminally in reaction to said point.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:26
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Popular Thug Drink posted:so by the town has been shut down you mean the schools were closed for a week, and by feds have been stationed you mean a monitoring and hq has been set up as is standard pretty much in every federal response to some kind of occupation or protest So the school was closed for a reason, the bomb threat. Everything wasn't fine because there was a threat of a bomb. Do threats only count if you personally take them seriously?
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Jan 7, 2016 22:27
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cunny mcalister posted:So the school was closed for a reason, the bomb threat. Everything wasn't fine because there was a threat of a bomb. Do threats only count if you personally take them seriously? The same threat was sent to other school systems, notably NYC and it was ignored because it was so clearly a hoax.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:28
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cunny mcalister posted:So the school was closed for a reason, the bomb threat. Everything wasn't fine because there was a threat of a bomb. Do threats only count if you personally take them seriously? NYC recieved the same threat, and did not close. was the LAUSD too cautious, or was the NYCSD not cautious enough? choose wisely my overall point remains, a school district closing down in response to the outside chance of a possibility of a threat is not all that uncommon and does not nearly constitute a "shutdown of the town" like you claimed earlier in support of your point that these dudes holed up in a cabin thirty miles from town pose a mortal threat to the townsfolk
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Jan 7, 2016 22:29
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Popular Thug Drink posted:NYC recieved the same threat, and did not close. was the LAUSD too cautious, or was the NYCSD not cautious enough? choose wisely should the person who made the bomb threat go to jail regardless
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Jan 7, 2016 22:29
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Talmonis posted:You mean those very same right wing militias that had the Republican Party go to bat for them and bury the DHS for reporting on their increasing numbers and plans? Those militias? Yeah those ones. There are all sorts of unpopular political minorities that still have some degree of political pull. OWS and BLM are obvious examples, and the ones I was thinking of when using the term "unpopular minority." They also have large numbers of adherents, have made political hay, and have/had elected politicians giving them cover. This is really a semantic dispute though, the fundamental issue is that you're pushing for a broader definition of an aggressive enforcement of laws against sedition which for anyone on the "left" is just beyond loving hilarious given the historical context. LGD fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 22:30
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Being sent to jail is being harmed.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:32
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LGD posted:Yeah those ones. There are all sorts of unpopular political minorities that still have some degree of political pull. OWS and BLM are obvious examples, and the ones I was thinking of when using the term "unpopular minority." They also have large numbers of adherents, have made political hay, and have/had elected politicians giving them cover. Thank heavens they're not armed and dangerous, theatening violence to anyone who tries to stop them from committing crimes then, or my stance would change. Edit: And I'm not pushing for poo poo other than for every armed group to be treated equally. Talmonis fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 22:34
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OWS idea of civil disobedience was sitting down and blocking a sidewalk, where they were pepper sprayed and dragged away. If only they had guns and said if anyone points a gun at me, I'll point a gun at them, they wouldn't have been forcibly relocated, and the protest would've been more effective.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:36
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Popular Thug Drink posted:NYC recieved the same threat, and did not close. was the LAUSD too cautious, or was the NYCSD not cautious enough? choose wisely Nope, not falling for it. A dozen men with guns threatening violence against people is the reason the school is closed. They are a clear and present danger. You are also ignoring that once it was realized it wasn't a threat, the schools were reopened; something that isn't happening yet in Burns for some reason.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:36
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cunny mcalister posted:Nope, not falling for it. A dozen men with guns threatening violence against people is the reason the school is closed. They are a clear and present danger. You are also ignoring that once it was realized it wasn't a threat, the schools were reopened; something that isn't happening yet in Burns for some reason. because they said they would remain closed until january 11th, a date in the future which hasn't happened yet
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Jan 7, 2016 22:37
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I was pretty excited to see these guys get stomped after nothing happened at the Bundy ranch but the last few days have changed my mind after it turned out these guys were nothing but a bunch of bumblefuck retards sitting in a cabin. They're probably the greatest gift the feds have gotten in a long time, its like a never-ending font of bad PR for the white militia groups. These guys have turned out to be such a sad bunch of losers not only is the entire world laughing at them, the actual major militias like the 3%ers and the Oath Keepers have all run themselves out of town for fear of association. Its almost as entertaining as watching a bunch of people who are normally falling all over themselves to condemn the police arresting left wing protesters for things like breaking and entering, trespassing, and vandalism because they're fighting the system or some bullshit be unable to contain their lust for seeing the other team brutalized to either A) realize how loving hypocritical that is or B) realize that what the FBI is doing right now is tactically the best thing to maximize the damage done to the militia movement by this bullshit.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:37
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Volkerball posted:OWS idea of civil disobedience was sitting down and blocking a sidewalk, where they were pepper sprayed and dragged away. If only they had guns and said if anyone points a gun at me, I'll point a gun at them, they wouldn't have been forcibly relocated, and the protest would've been more effective. And Kent State already proved that if you're an uppity student, you don't even need to be armed to be butchered.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:38
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Popular Thug Drink posted:because they said they would remain closed until january 11th, a date in the future which hasn't happened yet Why are they closed until the 11th? Is something happening in the area that would delay them?
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Jan 7, 2016 22:39
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Talmonis posted:Thank heavens they're not armed and dangerous, theatening violence to anyone who tries to stop them from committing crimes then, or my stance would change. You would change your semantic views on the phrase "unpopular minority" because of that? Seems odd.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:39
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Jarmak posted:Its almost as entertaining as watching a bunch of people who are normally falling all over themselves to condemn the police arresting left wing protesters for things like breaking and entering, trespassing, and vandalism because they're fighting the system or some bullshit be unable to contain their lust for seeing the other team brutalized to either A) realize how loving hypocritical that is or B) realize that what the FBI is doing right now is tactically the best thing to maximize the damage done to the militia movement by this bullshit. Or, and this may shock you, everyone who commits a crime should be prosecuted for it, regardless of cause. Guilt is for the jury, and leniency for circumstance is for the sentencing judge to determine.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:41
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cunny mcalister posted:Why are they closed until the 11th? Is something happening in the area that would delay them? so now we've dialed back the clear and present danger assessment based on how long the rural school district said they would close? i dunno if you're aware of how absurd this argument is Talmonis posted:Or, and this may shock you, everyone who commits a crime should be prosecuted for it, regardless of cause. Guilt is for the jury, and leniency for circumstance is for the sentencing judge to determine. what's it like having a crystal ball that tells you these militia dudes aren't going to face charges before they're even apprehended. can you hook me up and tell me the powerball numbers while you're at it
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Jan 7, 2016 22:42
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Volkerball posted:OWS idea of civil disobedience was sitting down and blocking a sidewalk, where they were pepper sprayed and dragged away. If only they had guns and said if anyone points a gun at me, I'll point a gun at them, they wouldn't have been forcibly relocated, and the protest would've been more effective. Sorry, we've decided that asking ourselves why unarmed minorities are dragged away and sometimes murdered over protests while self-declared traitors armed to the teeth are given the benefit of the doubt is not worth talking about. We will, however, turn this question into A Call for Violence Against All That Question the Left. Popular Thug Drink posted:what's it like having a crystal ball that tells you these militia dudes aren't going to face charges before they're even apprehended. can you hook me up and tell me the powerball numbers while you're at it Crystal balls don't predict the future. History can give us some information about the future, though. Were there any convictions the last time this group had an armed standoff with the feds, PTD?
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Jan 7, 2016 22:43
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LGD posted:You would change your semantic views on the phrase "unpopular minority" because of that? Seems odd.  No, I'd consider them a problem.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:44
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