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LGD posted:You would change your semantic views on the phrase "unpopular minority" because of that? Seems odd. Apparently there is literally no difference at all between armed protestors threatening violence and unarmed, non-violent protestors. They are exactly the same in all ways and should under no circumstances ever be treated differently.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:45
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Radbot posted:Crystal balls don't predict the future. History can give us some information about the future, though. Were there any convictions the last time this group had an armed standoff with the feds, PTD? i dunno, can you tell me which dudes at this protest committed crimes at the last protest which were not prosecuted? my hunch is that you're just freaking out pointlessly based on some kind of displaced rage about police brutality but i dunno you might have some actual information to post
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Jan 7, 2016 22:46
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Volkerball posted:OWS idea of civil disobedience was sitting down and blocking a sidewalk, where they were pepper sprayed and dragged away. If only they had guns and said if anyone points a gun at me, I'll point a gun at them, they wouldn't have been forcibly relocated, and the protest would've been more effective. Actually, they occupied privately-owned land. For two months! Clearly the failure to evict these protesters in less than one week, when OWS was evicted by a totally different law enforcement agency after eight weeks, is a sign of favorable treatment toward OWS. They're not even blockading the protest to prevent people from freely entering and leaving, a clear sign of unequal treatment and biased treatment compared to OWS which they also did not blockade. Honestly, it sounds to me like you're the one arguing for unequal treatment here.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:46
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the real thing we can learn from this whole saga imo is that if you ever get charged with felony assault on an on-duty police officer, just call up the court and say you'll kill any police officers who try to apprehend you. charges dropped. just work from home and order dominos every night. it beats prison.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:47
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Popular Thug Drink posted:so now we've dialed back the clear and present danger assessment based on how long the rural school district said they would close? i dunno if you're aware of how absurd this argument is Says the guy that refuses to believe that a guy that hasn't been charged with a prior standoff with federal agents doing a similar action is completely unrelated. The area believes the children aren't safe, why is that? Why would this district take a week off because there is no threat? If nothing is happening, why isn't life going on as normal?
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Jan 7, 2016 22:48
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Volkerball posted:the real thing we can learn from this whole saga imo is that if you ever get charged with felony assault on an on-duty police officer, just call up the court and say you'll kill any police officers who try to apprehend you. charges dropped. just work from home and order dominos every night. it beats prison. well that dude did imprison himself for fifteen years at zero cost to the government, so
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Jan 7, 2016 22:48
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cunny mcalister posted:Says the guy that refuses to believe that a guy that hasn't been charged with a prior standoff with federal agents doing a similar action is completely unrelated. are you talking about cliven bundy?
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Jan 7, 2016 22:48
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Main Paineframe posted:Considering that literal segregation was only outlawed 51 years ago, I'm not surprised that the FBI was racist 50 years ago! Their role, purpose, and doctrine have changed a lot since the days when it was still okay to bring live ammo to suppress a protest. And rest assured, they're surveilling and infiltrating militias too, they didn't just single out OWS for equal treatment. Main Paineframe posted:"His diatribes evince nothing more than his own hatred for – perhaps even desire to fight or kill – law enforcement; this is not the same as seditious conspiracy." - a real-life federal judge throwing out all charges against an armed militia group dedicated to war and revolution against the US government (which they called the "Army of Satan"). This is probably the number one reason why the feds are so slow to arrests against the Bundy militiamen, by the way. Failing to arrest militia members may look bad, but arresting them only for the charges to get thrown out by the judge outright legitimizes the militias. The feds aren't going to move forward with anything less than an ironclad case, and they're not going to settle for a sentence of a year or two for minor crimes.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:49
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Popular Thug Drink posted:what's it like having a crystal ball that tells you these militia dudes aren't going to face charges before they're even apprehended. can you hook me up and tell me the powerball numbers while you're at it The article posted above, coupled with Republican politicians actively hindering any attempts to deal with the overall problem of Right Wing terrorism, and finally the fact that this shindig is led by the very same yahoos as last time. I understand that some sympathetic yokel judge might throw out a case against these scum, like they did for the cultists, but that doesn't make it right and good. If the Baltimore and NY police can snatch people up days later for rioting and charge them, I'm sure the FBI can do it too to openly armed lunatics.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:49
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Popular Thug Drink posted:are you talking about cliven bundy? So you are privy to who the feds are building their case against? You know for a fact that a guy that was at his father's residence during an armed standoff with federal agents was one of the ones that didn't point a gun? If you have this info, can you share it so I can adjust my view? Or if a group of people are pointing guns, is only the property owner responsible for their actions?
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Jan 7, 2016 22:51
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Main Paineframe posted:Actually, they occupied privately-owned land. For two months! Clearly the failure to evict these protesters in less than one week, when OWS was evicted by a totally different law enforcement agency after eight weeks, is a sign of favorable treatment toward OWS. They're not even blockading the protest to prevent people from freely entering and leaving, a clear sign of unequal treatment and biased treatment compared to OWS which they also did not blockade. Honestly, it sounds to me like you're the one arguing for unequal treatment here. OWS was in many cases immediately told to move to different locations that were more convenient. If they refused, they were moved. Often they went to areas they had permission to be at, or to public areas designated for them. Or they were allowed to stay, for a time, to peacefully protest, coincidentally in the area they had already picked to do so. In no situation were they allowed to blockade federal business in a federal building for weeks, especially not while armed.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:52
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Mr. Wookums posted:The FBI was acting against minority civil rights groups well past segregation (which was irrelevant to the FBI) into at least 1972. Being that the FBI will not state why Occupy Cleveland (which was a super small group who had a tent in the warehouse district. I lived downtown during everything and you had to seek them out in a tent in a parking lot) was targeted as a terrorist organization, but other leaks have shown it was in corporation with banks. I suppose that element is missing here, the same interest groups that wanted OWS labeled as terrorists do not want white people to be labeled as such or have appropriate responses to terrorists (who are white). Pictured here: not white people
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Jan 7, 2016 22:53
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Who What Now posted:Apparently there is literally no difference at all between armed protestors threatening violence and unarmed, non-violent protestors. They are exactly the same in all ways and should under no circumstances ever be treated differently. why, exactly, should federal agents have to risk their lives to make arrests during the standoff, rather than after it? edit: literally every person in this thread thinks that these guys should be arrested at some point. there is nobody opposed to this
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Jan 7, 2016 22:53
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Popular Thug Drink posted:well that dude did imprison himself for fifteen years at zero cost to the government, so i bet it was real hard serving a sentence out there on 47 acres of land with his whole family that he probably never intended to leave much anyways.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:53
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Volkerball posted:OWS was in many cases immediately told to move to different locations that were more convenient. If they refused, they were moved. Often they went to areas they had permission to be at, or to public areas designated for them. Or they were allowed to stay, for a time, to peacefully protest, coincidentally in the area they had already picked to do so. In no situation were they allowed to blockade federal business in a federal building for weeks, especially not while armed. Can you tell us in which situations they attempted to blockade federal business in a federal building?
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Jan 7, 2016 22:54
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cunny mcalister posted:So you are privy to who the feds are building their case against? You know for a fact that a guy that was at his father's residence during an armed standoff with federal agents was one of the ones that didn't point a gun? If you have this info, can you share it so I can adjust my view? you're right, neither of us know if ammon bundy committed any crimes in 2014, the only rational response is to assume that he did commit crimes, and that he is guilty of them, and that there is a double standard, and we should all piss our pants about it
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Jan 7, 2016 22:55
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theflyingorc posted:why, exactly, should federal agents have to risk their lives to make arrests during the standoff, rather than after it? When they make the arrests, you will have a valid point.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:56
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Jarmak posted:Pictured here: not white people Why yes, this picture does indeed show young people of various races. Congratulations?
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Jan 7, 2016 22:56
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Can you tell us in which situations they attempted to blockade federal business in a federal building? I don't even know that they did at all. I think there were a few instances of flash mobs in courthouses and that type of thing, but not "we're staying the night here, banklords" type instances.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:56
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Can you tell us in which situations they attempted to blockade federal business in a federal building? why the hell should that be more important than taking action in a crowded area. i am much more concerned with the government dealing with things that impact daily life than i am concerned with them not tolerating anybody steppin' on their turf
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Jan 7, 2016 22:57
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Popular Thug Drink posted:you're right, neither of us know if ammon bundy committed any crimes in 2014, the only rational response is to assume that he did commit crimes, and that he is guilty of them, and that there is a double standard, and we should all piss our pants about it Perhaps we should have investigated those that were there in a timely fashion so we would know for sure. I think the federal agents that were there would be able to identify those that were pointing guns at them, even though it was a while ago.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:57
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cunny mcalister posted:When they make the arrests, you will have a valid point. Wait, what exactly about the governments actions so far are you mad about, specifically? What is it that the FBI is doing wrong?
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Jan 7, 2016 22:58
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You guys enjoy your productive bickering. I'm gonna sit back under a comfy tarp, pour a drink and laugh at the imbeciles on my TV. 
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Jan 7, 2016 22:59
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Can you tell us in which situations they attempted to blockade federal business in a federal building? There was a plan to blockade the stock exchange and the park got swept out the weekend before. When they do kick these guys out will they make a big show about public health and have guys in biohazard suits hosing the building down?
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Jan 7, 2016 23:00
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Volkerball posted:i bet it was real hard serving a sentence out there on 47 acres of land with his whole family that he probably never intended to leave much anyways. The goal of incarceration shouldn't be vengeance. It should be to protect society from an individual until such time as they are able to be rehabilitated. Given that his individual wasn't a threat to anyone while under house arrest what exactly is your compliant? Are you just bloodthirsty? Do you insist that unlawful behavior must be paid for with a pound of flesh?
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Jan 7, 2016 23:00
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theflyingorc posted:why the hell should that be more important than taking action in a crowded area. Those darn uppity kids and their sit-ins. They should just go arm themselves and take over the Alamo instead, like those nice militia folks.
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Jan 7, 2016 23:01
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Talmonis posted:Why yes, this picture does indeed show young people of various races. Congratulations? Yeah you're right, the 3 black people in the whole crowd of white people really makes that "Occupy Cleveland was classified as terrorist and the reason Bundy isn't is because he's white" argument make sense.
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Jan 7, 2016 23:01
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Salt Fish posted:The goal of incarceration shouldn't be vengeance. It should be to protect society from an individual until such time as they are able to be rehabilitated. Given that his individual wasn't a threat to anyone while under house arrest what exactly is your compliant? Are you just bloodthirsty? Do you insist that unlawful behavior must be paid for with a pound of flesh? Equal justice. And the man was absolutely a threat to his grandchildren who he had no legal right to keep prisoner. Their father has now not seen them in 15 years. I do believe that did some harm.
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Jan 7, 2016 23:03
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Salt Fish posted:It should be either to protect society from an individual until such time as they are able to be rehabilitated. Can every individual be rehabilitated? Look at that Affluenza kid and his mom. The best thing we could do is require every male to get a vas deferens valve at 18 so reproduction can be licensed. Then I would talk about abolishing the state's authority to terminate individuals. Jarmak posted:Yeah you're right, the 3 black people in the whole crowd of white people really makes that "Occupy Cleveland was classified as terrorist and the reason Bundy isn't is because he's white" argument make sense. When you take five minutes to think about the different ideological goals of each protest it makes complete sense.
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Jan 7, 2016 23:03
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theflyingorc posted:Wait, what exactly about the governments actions so far are you mad about, specifically? What is it that the FBI is doing wrong? someone dared to act in defiance of lawful authority and he's mad that the government has failed to immediately inflict its implacable might on those who would not know their place (Seriously I think these guys are all assholes who should probably be charged with federal crimes, but the anger over frustrated bloodlust is a little weird.)
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Jan 7, 2016 23:03
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cunny mcalister posted:Perhaps we should have investigated those that were there in a timely fashion so we would know for sure. I think the federal agents that were there would be able to identify those that were pointing guns at them, even though it was a while ago. "i don't know that this didn't happen, therefore nobody else knows it either" just because you don't know the outcome doesn't mean that your guesses are correct, friend. it is a lot easier to be angry about this situation if we just start on the premise that ammon bundy is guilty of something and then work from there without questioning our initial assumptions
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Jan 7, 2016 23:03
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Jarmak posted:Yeah you're right, the 3 black people in the whole crowd of white people really makes that "Occupy Cleveland was classified as terrorist and the reason Bundy isn't is because he's white" argument make sense.
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Jan 7, 2016 23:03
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Jarmak posted:Yeah you're right, the 3 black people in the whole crowd of white people really makes that "Occupy Cleveland was classified as terrorist and the reason Bundy isn't is because he's white" argument make sense. You're bad at this. The issue is that he's right-wing and white, not just white. Students get hosed because they're seen as leftists. Minorities always get hosed regardless. If some Right Wing hard line muslims took over federal lands, the military would be called in to remove them.
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Jan 7, 2016 23:04
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McDowell posted:There was a plan to blockade the stock exchange and the park got swept out the weekend before. When did NYSE become a federal building? 
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Jan 7, 2016 23:05
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Talmonis posted:You're bad at this. The issue is that he's right-wing and white, not just white. Students get hosed because they're seen as leftists. Minorities always get hosed regardless. If some Right Wing hard line muslims took over federal lands, the military would be called in to remove them. 2 wrongs don't make a right fyi
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Jan 7, 2016 23:06
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Salt Fish posted:The goal of incarceration shouldn't be vengeance. It should be to protect society from an individual until such time as they are able to be rehabilitated. Given that his individual wasn't a threat to anyone while under house arrest what exactly is your compliant? Are you just bloodthirsty? Do you insist that unlawful behavior must be paid for with a pound of flesh? lmao "house arrest."  well if someone robs a bank and then puts themselves on "house arrest" with all their cash to think about what they've done while aiming a gun out their window at people until the cops drop charges so no liberals have their sensibilities hurt by the idea of potential violence, i'll be sure to remember it's the rehabilitation that matters.
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Jan 7, 2016 23:06
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Spun Dog posted:You guys enjoy your productive bickering. What the gently caress should we be producing? Who gives a poo poo whether a thread on comedy forum something awful dot com is "productive"? This is dumber than arguing about tone.
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Jan 7, 2016 23:08
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theflyingorc posted:Wait, what exactly about the governments actions so far are you mad about, specifically? What is it that the FBI is doing wrong? Inaction and inconsistency. It shouldn't take 2 years to build a case against people that point guns and threaten violence while allowing those possibly involved to do the same thing again thousands of miles away. This situation shouldn't even have started, let alone get to this point. It's also frustrating that these people are so little of a threat that we should leave them alone, but are also so much of a threat that the feds need to build cases against them, wait for them to commit more crimes, and alter the lives of others because we can't possibly approach them. And for those arguing right vs. left on these protests, here is a thought exercise: If someone without a weapon asks you for you money, you ignore them and walk away. If someone with a weapon asks for your money, you give it to them and call the police. What difference does it make if they're armed?
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Jan 7, 2016 23:09
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Salt Fish posted:2 wrongs don't make a right fyi
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Jan 7, 2016 23:09
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:When did NYSE become a federal building? The point was more about disrupting operations of a powerful institution, which they were not allowed to do, making Volkerball technically correct in the spirit of bickering 
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Jan 7, 2016 23:09
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