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the extra dimension here is that ostensibly leftist goons are arguing that we need to contain and then raid clearly mentally ill persons in a potentially violent police conflict
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Jan 8, 2016 17:34
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Popular Thug Drink posted:the extra dimension here is that ostensibly leftist goons are arguing that we need to contain and then raid clearly mentally ill persons in a potentially violent police conflict postmodernity is a helluva drug
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Jan 8, 2016 17:35
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I, too, am outraged that we're not using bullshit misdemeanors to prolong a situation that otherwise shows every sign of fizzling out.
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Jan 8, 2016 17:57
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:I, too, am outraged that we're not using bullshit misdemeanors to prolong a situation that otherwise shows every sign of fizzling out. but, as compassionate and progressive leftists, don't you think this situation warrants an unflinching adherence to rule of law and a disprorportionate demonstration of force proving that dissent outside of accepted norms will not be tolerated? i mean that's kind of what we stand for, the supremacy of the state in quieting free speech if it poses a threat to the status quo
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Jan 8, 2016 18:03
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:I, too, am outraged that we're not using bullshit misdemeanors to prolong a situation that otherwise shows every sign of fizzling out. Popular Thug Drink posted:but, as compassionate and progressive leftists, don't you think this situation warrants an unflinching adherence to rule of law and a disprorportionate demonstration of force proving that dissent outside of accepted norms will not be tolerated? i mean that's kind of what we stand for, the supremacy of the state in quieting free speech if it poses a threat to the status quo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7QZgH1eP2o
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Jan 8, 2016 18:04
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Liberals are insufferable and I support the militia now. edit: No more Portlandia episodes going forward for me 
Nonsense fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 18:05
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prefect posted:That guy was the best. He is obviously the veteran of a super double secret black-ops team so classified you're not even allowed to know about it, civilian. Unit 303.
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Jan 8, 2016 18:17
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The liberals that want the refuge stormed in a river of blood are pretty misguided, but I think its a justifiably raw emotional response to the disproportionate amount of respect being shown to white terrorists. African Americans or muslims would've been dead days ago. I don't think anyone would argue otherwise. The reality is that they should seal them off and wait them out until they surrender peacefully, or until they attempt to harm others.
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Jan 8, 2016 18:17
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Mr. Wookums posted:Did the FBI also provide that milita (not terrorists) with the attack's planner, logistics to carry out the attack, housing, jobs and money to purchase the weapons? I'm pretty sure the Occupy Cleveland sting is quite different from how you characterized it, though in an unusual move for me, I'm not going to go back and double-check the source again because that tearful Rolling Stone defense of the violent anarchists from the mean old feds was such infuriatingly dishonest, fallacious garbage that I don't ever want to look at it again. More to the point, who cares? If you want to blow up a bridge, sign up to blow up a bridge, buy explosives to blow up a bridge, and go out to blow up a bridge, then you're clearly a threat who was looking for an opportunity, not a harmless youth who just hates his dad and lost his sense of community or whatever the gently caress the liberal defense for those shitheads was. If a FBI informant starts a fake militia to overthrow the government and stockpiles fake bombs, does that mean that the people who join that militia and try to use those fake bombs are innocent and harmless? quote:Yes, and what we know from the FBI's internal memos also contracts your stance that they're awesome and do not do bad things anymore for purely political reasons. I see nothing in those memos that supports your claim that OWS were "treated like terrorists" - if they had been, we'd be talking about them posthumously. They were subject to surveillance and watched for potential terrorist threats, but that's not the result of some super nefarious bank conspiracy to destroy leftists - even if the overall movement is non-violent and peaceful, it still needs to be watched, since it assuredly attracted radicals, anarchists, anti-government activists, and people with violent leanings, and some of them might meet and organize within OWS or radicalize others around them. cunny mcalister posted:If they are peaceful, how would the raid be risky? Armed raids are inherently risky and can easily convert a peaceful situation into a violent one, even if used against unarmed protesters.
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Jan 8, 2016 18:28
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Same.
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Jan 8, 2016 18:32
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LeeMajors posted:African Americans or muslims would've been dead days ago. I don't think anyone would argue otherwise. Have there been liberal / african american / muslim protests that took over spaces that were as irrelevant as this one? Maybe tree-sitting gets close? But the record there is about 560 days, set by Zachary Runningwolf. http://archive.dailycal.org/article.php?id=101931
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Jan 8, 2016 18:34
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falcon2424 posted:Have there been liberal / african american / muslim protests that took over spaces that were as irrelevant as this one? I can't think of a explicitly parallel situation, but the police/government take an inarguably more aggressive tack toward minority protesters in basically every single situation in history.
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Jan 8, 2016 18:36
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cunny mcalister posted:Cops will pull you over for speeding and have their pistol at the ready. quote:Now shift the goalposts to federal agents and we can discuss the importance of armored DEA raids and the risk there. quote:I feel this is a partisan situation where the only reason it is allowed to happen is because its the standard white man. quote:Ammon, though not officially charged with anything, is a known associate of a man that led a previous standoff against the feds. Shouldn't they have been keeping track of him and preventing the situation from even happening? It's not like they had to infiltrate him like other groups, he posted in public his exact plan. The inaction from the ranch standoff clearly only emboldened them, as their dumbasses thought the entire country was with them to the point they didn't think to pack food. quote:I'm not saying storm the place guns blazing. I'm saying stop letting people back in. I'm asking why this was even allowed to happen in the first place. The sheriff has had several meetings with Ammon and yet there was no opportunity to escort him out of town?
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Jan 8, 2016 18:37
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falcon2424 posted:Have there been liberal / african american / muslim protests that took over spaces that were as irrelevant as this one? AIM activists occupied alcatraz for 18 months in the 70s before they got raided
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Jan 8, 2016 18:41
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Main Paineframe posted:I'm pretty sure the Occupy Cleveland sting is quite different from how you characterized it, though in an unusual move for me, I'm not going to go back and double-check the source again because that tearful Rolling Stone defense of the violent anarchists from the mean old feds was such infuriatingly dishonest, fallacious garbage that I don't ever want to look at it again. It sounded right to me. I actually met one of the 4 just a few months prior. He was a dumb stoner who couldn't plan a trip to the supermarket.
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Jan 8, 2016 18:42
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Popular Thug Drink posted:AIM activists occupied alcatraz for 18 months in the 70s before they got raided Were they armed? If so, they probably should have stopped anyone coming and going to the island and cut off all supplies/power/water, if possible. Better than a raid IMO.
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Jan 8, 2016 18:46
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they were just white enough to get a pass from the white supremacist FBI, yes
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Jan 8, 2016 18:47
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You guys have convinced me, there should be no consequences for this, everyone should just ignore it and hope it goes away. Gonna grab my gun and go claim the local library for myself. Don't you dare suggest anyone should do anything about it, that would be an irresponsible provocation.
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Jan 8, 2016 18:54
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Kazak_Hstan posted:You guys have convinced me, there should be no consequences for this, everyone should just ignore it and hope it goes away. Gonna grab my gun and go claim the local library for myself. Don't you dare suggest anyone should do anything about it, that would be an irresponsible provocation. Make sure you expressly state that you want to be arrested, though. This will create an impenetrable magical force-field around you that authorities cannot breach.
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Jan 8, 2016 18:57
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Kazak_Hstan posted:You guys have convinced me, there should be no consequences for this, everyone should just ignore it and hope it goes away. Gonna grab my gun and go claim the local library for myself. Don't you dare suggest anyone should do anything about it, that would be an irresponsible provocation. *looks for poster who doesn't think they should be arrested* *tumbleweeds*
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Jan 8, 2016 19:00
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 worthless, inedible birds
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Jan 8, 2016 19:01
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theflyingorc posted:*looks for poster who doesn't think they should be arrested* they're taking a page from the playbook of conservatives who whine about how people on welfare have it made. "oh yeah well i'll just go out and demand what i want at gunpoint and i'm white so there will be ZERO consequences" *remains in computer chair for remainder of day* it's hard to maintain a healthy, honest outrage if you take a factual look at the situation boner confessor fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 19:02
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As a Millennial I posted:
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Jan 8, 2016 19:06
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Popular Thug Drink posted:they're taking a page from the playbook of conservatives who whine about how people on welfare have it made. "oh yeah well i'll just go out and demand what i want at gunpoint and i'm white so there will be ZERO consequences" *remains in computer chair for remainder of day* it's really not hard to understand 1 don't do things that might make the situation escalate 2 punish them once they're not holed up somewhere we can be upset if 2 never happens
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Jan 8, 2016 19:07
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Popular Thug Drink posted:AIM activists occupied alcatraz for 18 months in the 70s before they got raided The occupation died on it's own. They cut off power and poo poo but what really did it was one of the kids falling to her death. People lost heart and interest after that. When the police finally went in they just told the 15 people who remained to leave, half of them were non native squatters by that point,
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Jan 8, 2016 19:07
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sparatuvs posted:The occupation died on it's own. and then wounded knee happened two years later. see what happens when you don't crack down on occupations?
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Jan 8, 2016 19:08
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theflyingorc posted:it's really not hard to understand But it's so much easier to not read, create a new narrative, and post!
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Jan 8, 2016 19:10
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Aww come on, Popular Thug Drink's last avatar was at least funny in a kind of non-sequitur way. This one is just lazy 
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Jan 8, 2016 19:11
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I hope the Feds raid the place just so this thread can stop bitching at each other.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:12
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My absolute favorite outcome for this would be hidden camera gay sex orgies. Remember, it's not gay if the spurs don't touch.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:14
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People are upset that 2 didn't happen to these exact people last time. The counterpoint of "the BLM is making a case against Cliven Bundy" rings hollow to a lot of people.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:14
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theflyingorc posted:it's really not hard to understand The manner the situation has been managed to this point suggests hope for number 2 is not great. There has not even been an explicit order for them to disperse, just wishy washy expressions of hope for a peaceful resolution. Their continued unimpeded presence there is strong validation of he notion that if you have a gun the rules are different for you. That's a really bad message to send everyone with a grievance against the government.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:15
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theflyingorc posted:I should have been clearer, by "real laws" I meant "serious offenses worthy of being arrested on sight", I'll admit I worded it stupidly "Pointing guns at federal employees and threatening to open fire" isn't illegal when you're part of a white wing militia so no, nothing these idiots are doing is going to be an "Arrest on Sight" offense considering people who were involved in the Bundy Ranch standoff haven't been getting rounded up even though they should be. These people are just going to be a joke to the vast majority of the nation. falcon2424 posted:Maybe tree-sitting gets close? But the record there is about 560 days, set by Zachary Runningwolf. http://archive.dailycal.org/article.php?id=101931 If he had a gun and was threatening to take shots at anyone who came near to tear down the tree they would've treated him differently. Making an argument that "it's a peaceful protest" when the people involved are armed part of the militia movement is several degrees different from "well that old hippie was up a tree with some granola" or whatever.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:16
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Talmonis posted:People are upset that 2 didn't happen to these exact people last time. The counterpoint of "the BLM is making a case against Cliven Bundy" rings hollow to a lot of people. we don't know why 2 didn't happen last time, except that cliven bundy's case is still in the court system, so we're not sure that 2 isn't going to happen yet. but it seems like the prevailing assumption is that some unnamed persons at the bundy ranch standoff, who we might as well assume are the same people at the oregon standoff, committed crimes, and if we're assuming they committed crimes we might as well assume they're guilty too, and we can go all the way and assume the reason they were not punished for these theoretical crimes is because they are white men being coddled by a racist government who hates minorities. if any link in this chain of assumptions is false then my anger at the situation would be irrational, and we can't let that happen
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Jan 8, 2016 19:18
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Kazak_Hstan posted:Their continued unimpeded presence there is strong validation of he notion that if you have a gun the rules are different for you. That's a really bad message to send everyone with a grievance against the government. yes, we really should get into an armed confrontation with these guys else anti-government militias in the future may feel empowered to confront federal agents, with guns, and we don't want that to happen
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Jan 8, 2016 19:19
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Main Paineframe posted:I'm pretty sure the Occupy Cleveland sting is quite different from how you characterized it, though in an unusual move for me, I'm not going to go back and double-check the source again because that tearful Rolling Stone defense of the violent anarchists from the mean old feds was such infuriatingly dishonest, fallacious garbage that I don't ever want to look at it again. quote:1. An identified as of October planned to en Iacks .196 against protestors in Houston, Texas, if deemed necessary. An indentifiedl had ib7C received intelligence that indicated the protesters in New York and Seattle planned similar protests in Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, and Austin, Texas. lanned to gather intelligence against the leaders of the protest groups and obtain photographs, then formulate a plan to kill the leadership via suppressed sniper rifles. (Note: protests continued throughout the weekend with approximately 6000 persons in NYC. "Occupy Wall Street" protests have spread to about half of all states in the US, over a dozen European and Asian cities, including protests in Cleveland l0/6-8/1 1 at Willard Park which was initially attended by hundreds of protestersSE-CR
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Jan 8, 2016 19:20
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Talmonis posted:People are upset that 2 didn't happen to these exact people last time. The counterpoint of "the BLM is making a case against Cliven Bundy" rings hollow to a lot of people. Sure, but one occurrence doesn't a trend make. Let's get more than a single data point before we declare that these guys are getting away with it. If they DO just walk away from it, we can talk about that. But it's super obvious they shouldn't be trying to arrest these guys right now, the potential for somebody to get shot, and maybe inspire other militias, is really really high The blockade thing I think has more difference of opinion. I'm sorta ambivalent but I would like to see these guys look stupid so I'd be cool with it, but I can imagine that it could legitimize them more than the feds want to, so i dunno, it seems reasonable to me, but maybe there's considerations I'm not privy to? I think a big part of the disconnect is that the FBI isn't actually taking these guys that seriously, but recognizes that any storm the gates behavior is inherently dangerous, even against a bunch of pathetic dummies
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Jan 8, 2016 19:20
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Mr. Wookums posted:I would think someone who advocates that the Feds treat all equally should care. And yes, they are innocent; it's entrapment even if the crime is domestic terrorism. The only reference to Cleveland (including memo headers) is By order of the Republican Party, let's not forget.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:21
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Bobby Digital posted:A friend shared this on Facebook: http://grist.org/politics/one-of-the-angry-ranchers-complaints-might-make-more-sense-than-you-think/ And to top it all, what is the change that they want? People posting that map of the US with federal property in red are I assume suggesting that the 'ol privatization route is the way out of this. Putting aside all other arguments against that, do they really think they'll be in a better place if they're having to go through private businesses for their ability to graze? They would have you over a barrel. Yet somehow their plight is the government's fault Bhaal fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 19:24
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theflyingorc posted:Sure, but one occurrence doesn't a trend make. Let's get more than a single data point before we declare that these guys are getting away with it. If they DO just walk away from it, we can talk about that. But it's super obvious they shouldn't be trying to arrest these guys right now, the potential for somebody to get shot, and maybe inspire other militias, is really really high I guess the thing is that no one worries about "other X being inspired" where "X," are militias in this case, when it comes to jackbooting on Occupy protesters or BLM folks or any kind of leftist protest action. Only the white conservative militia men are treated with such deference, typically - which, oddly enough, proves the point that you'll be taken very seriously if you are packing a lot of firepower.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:24
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