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Popular Thug Drink posted:we don't know why 2 didn't happen last time, except that cliven bundy's case is still in the court system, so we're not sure that 2 isn't going to happen yet. but it seems like the prevailing assumption is that some unnamed persons at the bundy ranch standoff, who we might as well assume are the same people at the oregon standoff, committed crimes, and if we're assuming they committed crimes we might as well assume they're guilty too, and we can go all the way and assume the reason they were not punished for these theoretical crimes is because they are white men being coddled by a racist government who hates minorities. if any link in this chain of assumptions is false then my anger at the situation would be irrational, and we can't let that happen Ammon Bundy: Probably not at all connected to Cliven Bundy.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:25
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theflyingorc posted:Sure, but one occurrence doesn't a trend make. Let's get more than a single data point before we declare that these guys are getting away with it. If they DO just walk away from it, we can talk about that. But it's super obvious they shouldn't be trying to arrest these guys right now, the potential for somebody to get shot, and maybe inspire other militias, is really really high Part of the problem is the difference in treatment for just about any other movement or organization. Nobody sane is calling for use of excessive force, but no response at all aside from a stern "tsk tsk" on the TV is bullshit.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:25
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Noam Chomsky posted:I guess the thing is that no one worries about "other X being inspired" where "X," are militias in this case, when it comes to jackbooting on Occupy protesters or BLM folks or any kind of leftist protest action. Only the white conservative militia men are treated with such deference, typically - which, oddly enough, proves the point that you'll be taken very seriously if you are packing a lot of firepower. can you demonstrate that BLM or OWS has a higher body count than militias? i doubt that you can. it seems that this deference is a false perception, partly due to seeing the 'other team' getting preferential treatment when that is clearly not the case and partly because BLM and OWS do not have an established history of violent reprisals like militias people keep saying militias get preferential treatment and that's a big assumption that nobody wants to really question as then it makes the whole persecution complex fall apart cunny mcalister posted:Ammon Bundy: Probably not at all connected to Cliven Bundy. you're still unwilling or incapable of describing the crimes ammon bundy committed, because as far as i'm aware having a father or being at a protest are not illegal
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Jan 8, 2016 19:26
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LeeMajors posted:The liberals that want the refuge stormed in a river of blood are pretty misguided, but I think its a justifiably raw emotional response to the disproportionate amount of respect being shown to white terrorists. What's understandable is that people want: 1) for the situation to be resolved peacefully, and; 2) for justice to be served. But we probably can't have both things. I mean, they should be forcibly removed from federal property that they're illegally occupying, but that would probably lead to 1 not being fulfilled. 1 is almost certainly fulfilled if we just wait, but is somewhat frustrating and unsatisfying and leaves us feeling that 2 will never be satisfied. However, I think that we should trust the militia. They have surely earned our confidence by now; they have demonstrated themselves to be a bunch of utter morons, spoiled children who fancy themselves rugged frontiersmen. Let us patiently watch as their fantasies meet reality head on, and they slowly disintegrate as a group and as individuals. Because, if we're honest with ourselves, what we really want is: 3) for this to continue to be hilarious for as long as possible.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:27
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Noam Chomsky posted:I guess the thing is that no one worries about "other X being inspired" where "X," are militias in this case, when it comes to jackbooting on Occupy protesters or BLM folks or any kind of leftist protest action. Only the white conservative militia men are treated with such deference, typically - which, oddly enough, proves the point that you'll be taken very seriously if you are packing a lot of firepower. Well, there's a reason why peaceful protest is a pretty radical concept. Our society is drenched in it's rhetoric now, but the idea of "enact change without hurting anyone" is a thing you have to CONVINCE people of, because it's obvious you'll get more attention if you bring a gun. I think you're still somewhat discounting the complete lack of importance of what they're "occupying". It's a visitor center with some bird dioramas, with nobody nearby who is in any danger except for the armed protesters themselves. That's at least part of it. If this was in a metro area I think the response would be a lot more dramatic.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:28
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LeeMajors posted:The liberals that want the refuge stormed in a river of blood are pretty misguided, but I think its a justifiably raw emotional response to the disproportionate amount of respect being shown to white terrorists. Pretty much. There's a deep, dark part of me that would enjoy watching these hillbilly assholes get pepper-sprayed, tazed, and marched off in cuffs, but I'm also emotionally mature enough to know that that is not the reasonable or proportional thing to do. Starve/freeze them out and they'll leave--without the conservative martyrdom they want so badly. Stories of infighting and dissension in the ranks are already spreading like wildfire, and they don't look like the revolutionary heroes they thought they would--they look like complete loving idiots, even to a lot of the people they'd hoped to convert to their cause. Reminds me of that West Wing episode near the start of the series where Bartlet wants to carpet-bomb Syria because terrorists shot down a transport plane, and the staff spends the whole episode talking him off the ledge. Fritz Coldcockin fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 19:31
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Popular Thug Drink posted:
Intimidation, Assault with a deadly weapon (Aiming guns at cops), Tresspassing, Grand theft Auto, Breaking and Entering, Burglery, Tax Evasion (just spitballing there, but likely), and whatever else they could hit him with under RICO for the ranch shitshow. If they cared that is.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:33
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Talmonis posted:Intimidation, Assault with a deadly weapon (Aiming guns at cops), Tresspassing, Grand theft Auto, Breaking and Entering, Burglery, Tax Evasion (just spitballing there, but likely), and whatever else they could hit him with under RICO for the ranch shitshow. If they cared that is. ok, what evidence do you have that ammon bundy committed any of othese crimes in 2014, or are we diving into "he's no angel" territory here
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Jan 8, 2016 19:35
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Popular Thug Drink posted:
After the Bundy standoff we were told names were taken and "we'll keep an eye on 'em". Then one of them starts an armed occupation of federal land that he advertised on Facebook. My anger at this is shouldn't they have been pulled over on the way there? Why even let it start?
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Jan 8, 2016 19:35
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cunny mcalister posted:After the Bundy standoff we were told names were taken and "we'll keep an eye on 'em". Then one of them starts an armed occupation of federal land that he advertised on Facebook. My anger at this is shouldn't they have been pulled over on the way there? Why even let it start? i mean occam's razor would be that he didn't commit any crimes in 2014 but i guess you can also just assume that the federal government wants to encourage inept milita types if you're into honeypot conspiracy theories, it's your life man do what you want but just to be clear, the biggest red flag that stands out for you that ammon bundy committed crimes at the first standoff is because he wasn't arrested? do i have that right?
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Jan 8, 2016 19:37
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i mean occam's razor would be that he didn't commit any crimes in 2014 but i guess you can also just assume that the federal government wants to encourage inept milita types if you're into honeypot conspiracy theories, it's your life man do what you want If we're basing crimes on arrests, then everyone at the Bundy Ranch committed no crimes?
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Jan 8, 2016 19:40
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Don't know about Ammon, but Ryan (hosed-up face guy) has a huge rap sheet.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:40
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Popular Thug Drink posted:
Sweet so I can count you as being in favor of my plan to get my gun and take over the local library. That is actually a really dumb plan offered to demonstrate how dumb the "if you do anything at all about these people it is LITERALLY WACO" argument is but nope you actually thing it is an okay and legal thing to do. Burglary, theft, interference with agency function, conspiracy to commit those offenses, and using firearms in the furtherance of those offenses are crimes, hth. Yes it is in fact against the law to engage in an armed takeover of a federal building, strange but true.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:42
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Popular Thug Drink posted:we don't know why 2 didn't happen last time, except that cliven bundy's case is still in the court system, so we're not sure that 2 isn't going to happen yet. but it seems like the prevailing assumption is that some unnamed persons at the bundy ranch standoff, who we might as well assume are the same people at the oregon standoff, committed crimes, and if we're assuming they committed crimes we might as well assume they're guilty too, and we can go all the way and assume the reason they were not punished for these theoretical crimes is because they are white men being coddled by a racist government who hates minorities. if any link in this chain of assumptions is false then my anger at the situation would be irrational, and we can't let that happen "Cliven Bundy's case is still in the court system" regarding his fines, not any of the bomb threats or personal threats his followers made against people employed at hotels in the nearby town.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:42
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The best thing to come out of this will be the militia being charged with a felony and losing their right to bare arms.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:43
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Popular Thug Drink posted:ok, what evidence do you have that ammon bundy committed any of othese crimes in 2014, or are we diving into "he's no angel" territory here He was part of the militia mob threatening federal agents and police. They have dozens of them on camera. They have his stupid father rambling about how the Sheriff should come surrender to him. Not exactly a leap, after he leads an armed mob to seize a federal facility when nothing happens after the first time. Burglery, Trespassing, GTA and B&E are all from this incident. Which is not even up for debate, he and his followers admit that they broke into the facility and have taken BLM vehicles.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:43
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Please respect my freedom to live like a locust.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:50
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Ninkobei posted:The best thing to come out of this will be the militia being charged with a felony and losing their right to bare arms. 
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Jan 8, 2016 19:50
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Oh me oh my I can't imagine what crimes could possibly have been committed at the Bundy ranch in 2014. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/111 Oh that's just some dumb misdemeanor! Oh there's a twenty year max for using a gun to impede federal law enforcement officers? Who could ever have imagined there was a fairly serious law against that?!
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Jan 8, 2016 19:59
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https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/372 Oh there's a law against conspiring to threaten and intimidate federal officials out of doing their job? I'm shocked.
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Jan 8, 2016 20:02
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Man, it's standing room only in this thread thanks to all the loving strawmen.
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Jan 8, 2016 20:04
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https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/641 Hey we found some truck keys, I guess we can use these government vehicles now right? There's no law against that is there? Oh there is? It's a felony to steal federal property in excess of $1,000? Stunning.
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Jan 8, 2016 20:06
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Mormon Star Wars posted:"Cliven Bundy's case is still in the court system" regarding his fines, not any of the bomb threats or personal threats his followers made against people employed at hotels in the nearby town. i wasn't aware cliven bundy is criminally responsible for things that people did when they showed up at his ranch Talmonis posted:He was part of the militia mob threatening federal agents and police. They have dozens of them on camera. They have his stupid father rambling about how the Sheriff should come surrender to him. Not exactly a leap, after he leads an armed mob to seize a federal facility when nothing happens after the first time. oh so now we're holding people criminally responsible for being in proximity to others in a protest? group responsibility? while of course decrying crackdowns on some OWS protests because
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Jan 8, 2016 20:07
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i wasn't aware cliven bundy is criminally responsible for things that people did when they showed up at his ranch The point is that they never arrested or did anything against his followers that did those things. Of course, you know this, you are just pretending to be dense so that you can try to portray people that think that bomb threats should be illegal as liberal fascists or whatever your boogeyman happens to be. "A person makes a bomb threat" and "A person threatens to kill a hotel employee" are both normal crimes. So why weren't they pursued?
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Jan 8, 2016 20:20
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i wasn't aware cliven bundy is criminally responsible for things that people did when they showed up at his ranch Cliven Bundy was the primary person inciting the standoff. Even if he wasn't directly pointing guns at cops the people who were doing so were doing so under his order. That in and of itself should be enough to get him brought in under RICO statutes where he is responsible for all crimes committed by the people under his command. As to the second point: When those other people are aiming guns at cops and trying to incite a firefight? Absolutely. If you are at a rally where that is going on, it signals that those actions have your implicit support and your very presence serves as a morale boost to the militants. If you were at the standoff and didn't agree with the armed protest you have right to get the gently caress out of there before you're permanently associated with the fuckwits.
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Jan 8, 2016 20:24
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As a Millennial I posted:
*bird looks at camera* It's a living...
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Jan 8, 2016 20:27
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Hey everybody, shut the hell up about all this pedantic bullshit nonsense nobody wants to read and check out this spicy Facebook drama bubbling up among the militia goobers! I have no idea of the authenticity of these stories but these guys sure look like a threat to be taken seriously and not like a bunch of dysfunctional amateurs playing dress up and having ridiculous slapfights for all the world to see!
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Jan 8, 2016 20:31
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Mormon Star Wars posted:The point is that they never arrested or did anything against his followers that did those things. and this is clearly more of a precedent than all of the times when the feds did prosecute milita because e: i can't even find anything which shows that ammon bundy was even at the 2014 standoff, which kind of fits into this free ranging assumption that he was there pointing rifles at feds, i mean why not boner confessor fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 20:32
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Popular Thug Drink posted:
Arson. Squatting. Treason against the government. Making terroristic threats. Possibly armed criminal action as well. Almost certainly defacing government property. And those are just the ones we know about.
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Jan 8, 2016 20:41
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Popular Thug Drink posted:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nXGfDlFsqkM
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Jan 8, 2016 20:43
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Mormon Star Wars posted:The point is that they never arrested or did anything against his followers that did those things. That's not entirely true, they were trying to arrest those two followers in Vegas.
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Jan 8, 2016 20:44
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Astrofig posted:Arson. Squatting. Treason against the government. Making terroristic threats. Possibly armed criminal action as well. Almost certainly defacing government property. And those are just the ones we know about. yeah i'm talking about the guy who insists that ammon bundy was present and committing crimes at the 2014 bundy ranch standoff, and therefore claiming gross negligence and favorable treatment at the hands of the FBI, even though he doesn't have any proof that ammon was even at that standoff ok so we know for sure that he committed treason against a police dog with his foot, what else? boner confessor fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 20:45
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New photos from inside and around the compound    
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Jan 8, 2016 20:59
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Rhesus Pieces posted:Hey everybody, shut the hell up about all this pedantic bullshit nonsense nobody wants to read and check out this spicy Facebook drama bubbling up among the militia goobers! I want it all to be true. This is glorious.
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Jan 8, 2016 21:03
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Tactilol squatting
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Jan 8, 2016 21:03
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Jesus Christ, with all those loving windows it'll be like shooting fish in a barrel if the Feds do drop the hammer. You'd think you'd want to make your stronghold in somewhere that didn't have huge panes of glass for the most of the walls.
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Jan 8, 2016 21:04
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Personally I'm down with ignoring them until they go away, but this comment from that youtube about Ammon getting tased is direct evidence that not enforcing these laws emboldens them: I wish the conversation had gone on longer, I really want to know where he was going with Earth's true names.
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Jan 8, 2016 21:07
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SquadronROE posted:
sweet skull, these guys must be really tough and hardcore
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Jan 8, 2016 21:08
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I didn't know Davis Aurini was a part of this
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Jan 8, 2016 21:10
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Have they tried to declare themselves a sovereign nation yet?
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Jan 8, 2016 21:11
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