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calvus posted:If you like to be risky you could always claim somebody else is offering x salary
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Nov 26, 2015 02:32
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swenblack posted:It's fairly easy to get away with lying, but most professions are small enough and connected enough that this sort of thing catches up with you eventually if you make a habit of it. I agree but salary negotiation is a little different. Employers will often try and screw you on salary, it helps to have strategies.
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Nov 26, 2015 20:02
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Couple of years back I've decided to leave academia for personal reasons and move to an unrelated field in the industry. Entry level operations management position in manufacturing, lots of working hours, lots of overtime etc. In total I made just over 50k in the seven months of good times before the oil cratered and took a lot of local jobs with it including mine. Several months of unemployment later, an interesting posting turns up. Brand new position in a different company, good potential for growth, aligns quite well with both my academic and operations experience. I would very much like to take a swing at it. Two interviews later, they ask for my salary expectations for this position. The original posting gives a broad range of 42-62k. National median for this type of position varies between 46-65k, depending on the proportion of managerial duties. My initial feeling is to ask closer to the top end of the range, but would that make them drop me as a candidate?
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Nov 27, 2015 03:33
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If the original posting said up to 62, they aren't going to drop a candidate for asking for that much. You should definitely feel comfortable asking for something in the 60s.
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Nov 27, 2015 04:25
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iv46vi posted:Couple of years back I've decided to leave academia for personal reasons and move to an unrelated field in the industry. Entry level operations management position in manufacturing, lots of working hours, lots of overtime etc. In total I made just over 50k in the seven months of good times before the oil cratered and took a lot of local jobs with it including mine. It depends, though. Did you pick you because they thought they could get you cheap? Or did they really like something on your resume and have already decided to hire you, no matter what it costs? If you can get a good read on that, it would affect your negotiating strategy.
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Nov 27, 2015 19:06
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When negotiating dollar amount, I was asked if there was any info they should be aware of regarding desired benefits of compensation. Understanding that includes everything, my previous response was "low six figures". Is that too vague or should I stick to that response to see what they throw out?
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Nov 27, 2015 19:36
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Mr.Trifecta posted:When negotiating dollar amount, I was asked if there was any info they should be aware of regarding desired benefits of compensation. Understanding that includes everything, my previous response was "low six figures". Is that too vague or should I stick to that response to see what they throw out? They might be trying to suss out whether there are particular benefits that might be more attractive to you than others. If you are into short strokes negotiation you can suggest important points but focus on negotiating a complete package rather than piecemeal.
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Nov 27, 2015 20:23
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So I got an offer. It's about 10k less then target salary. Looking to get to that number. Some reasons is my target salary is the median for my area (according to salary.com) and along with a relocation I have to do. Are there any other points I should bring up as to why or any other tips?
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Dec 1, 2015 20:44
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I've got a fun one. It's got an offer question at the bottom. So a couple months back I quit my job due to a couple of factors. My partner got a new job in a different city, and I was about ready to quit the gig I had. My industry is a pretty small, tight-knit one where I know and have worked with most of my "competitors" pretty closely. We decide to move to the new city. I put in my notice and help find a replacement. Before I quit I told a few close friends in the industry that I was on my way out, one of them at an industry convention. The next morning, he texted me to come meet a friend of his and lo-and-behold it was the hiring manager of another company that was looking for what I do, in the new city my wife was moving to! How convenient. He's got 2 jobs that I can do, one a step-up and one a smallish-step down from what I was doing. The step-up one, I have some serious competition for, including someone who is applying to replace me at my previous job as well as the one at the new company. After a couple months of casual interviews and some more formal ones, he tells me that he's probably going to go with that other someone (that was also applying for my replacement job), and that I'd be a great fit for the step-down job, he's going to set me up with some final interviews with a few more people. A couple weeks go by and I find out that my old job, in fact, hired the guy (I assume made him a better offer, I was gone by this point). It'd been radio silent for the past couple weeks (it's the holidays, things are slow moving anyways, I didn't think it was a big deal). He emailed me tonight asking if I'd be interested in the step-up job! He knows that I was aware of the other candidate being offered the job. Also that other candidate is, I'm not afraid to say this, substantially more experienced than I am and is a "better' candidate. How the heck do I navigate this situation? I'm not hurting to take a job right away, and this job is a pretty good one that I would be interested in, but not a once-in-a-lifetime kind of position. I am very clearly not their first choice.
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Dec 9, 2015 12:47
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Beast of Bourbon posted:He emailed me tonight asking if I'd be interested in the step-up job! He knows that I was aware of the other candidate being offered the job. Also that other candidate is, I'm not afraid to say this, substantially more experienced than I am and is a "better' candidate. It's not clear to me what the problem is. You don't seem to have an issue that they attempted to hire the other guy instead of you and the hiring manager was upfront about the situation. Is there some reason you don't want the job now? I don't think being the second choice should matter. If you have other offers on the table, then maybe this factors in, but regardless I would go through the process and get an offer.
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Dec 9, 2015 13:48
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You....are the first choice. The other guy is not a choice any more. You are still in a good negotiating position, especially if they're already feeling burned by someone taking a higher offer. I'm not actually sure what your question is - do you feel uncomfortable about working there because they liked another candidate? If you're worried you won't be able to do the job, don't be, just show up and do your best and fake it until you make it - that's all anyone really does.
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Dec 9, 2015 17:27
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Beast of Bourbon posted:He emailed me tonight asking if I'd be interested in the step-up job! He knows that I was aware of the other candidate being offered the job. Also that other candidate is, I'm not afraid to say this, substantially more experienced than I am and is a "better' candidate.
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Dec 9, 2015 23:18
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I tried negotiating a bit when I got my current job. One of my main points when switching employers was that I would get much better pay but was leaving behind a better benefits package, so I would have to pay more out of pocket if I wanted to achieve the same level of contributions. My hiring recruiter told me that I had an error in my calculations because this current benefit package wasn't a choice between Option A (3% from company) or Option B (50% match up to 3%), but instead that both were included. Cool, I thought, that's an extra 3% that would slowly increase over the years. That was incorrect, however. I do not get the extra 3% contribution until I have a year of service. At my current salary, that is about $2k in pre-tax contributions that I expected to be receiving and did not actually get. Annual reviews are coming up, though I will only be a 6 month employee when mine comes around. Would I have a leg to stand on for being misled about the benefits package? Can I take whatever raise they try to give me and add +$X to make up for the lost contributions? I don't really know what to expect in terms of salary increase (if any), but how do I valuate ~$1k in pre-tax money?
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Dec 10, 2015 00:43
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Thanks for the advice, I had a call with him and it was VERY clear that I was not their top choice. He mentioned it several times, including wistfully, but then he gave a run down of what the timeline is for getting hired, and when I'd start and where to go from there. So, yeah, he is very clearly interested in me now. I'll come back when I actually get an offer letter.
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Dec 11, 2015 04:23
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Xandu posted:So I had asked for a raise and my boss countered with a promotion to the next grade at the end of the year, which I accepted. I have a feeling now based on our last conversation that he's expecting me to accept what I had originally asked for as the raise, but I feel like it's fair to ask for more than that given that I'll be at the next level, right? Just to update the thread, ended up getting a little less than 70 in base salary, but with a bonus that brings it over.
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Dec 11, 2015 05:11
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Xandu posted:Just to update the thread, ended up getting a little less than 70 in base salary, but with a bonus that brings it over.
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Dec 12, 2015 14:40
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Update: They offered 10k more then I'm making (asked for 20k) but pitched in a 5k sign on bonus after writing a lengthy email why I'm worth it. Went to my boss and in four hours they created a position just for me, matched the offer but tossed on a 10k sign on bonus. Stuck with my current company, going contract to full time but was allowed to be paid hourly for OT purposes. Lessons learned: always asks, it never hurts. Ask for hourly if in a field it's common (I.e IT).
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Dec 14, 2015 03:02
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Beast of Bourbon posted:Thanks for the advice, I had a call with him and it was VERY clear that I was not their top choice. He mentioned it several times, including wistfully, but then he gave a run down of what the timeline is for getting hired, and when I'd start and where to go from there. So, yeah, he is very clearly interested in me now. This is the hiring manager trying to pummel your ego down by mentioning that they almost had a better candidate. But they didn't, their compensation package wasn't good enough to secure the candidate they preferred, and now they won't get that candidate. You are now their favorite candidate. Their other candidate isn't a candidate anymore. He took the other offer. They can't get him. They can get you. Everyone else is right, it IS good that they're being open about their hiring process and clearly expressed to you why they were dragging their feet on extending you an offer. They wanted to work with you regardless of you being slightly overqualified for their open rec. They wanted to hire the best person for their most senior position which is acting in their own best interests. Nothing wrong is happening here and the openness and quality communication are good signs! But you likewise have to act in your own best interests, which is negotiating good compensation, and to do that you have to remember that you are their favorite candidate. Any discussion about the one who got away is a distraction, if that was any sort of an option they would not be engaging in salary discussion with you about the position now. You're top dog, now go get it done!
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Dec 14, 2015 16:15
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Question: I've been working at a small firm for the last two years. In the summer I passed exams and am now differently qualified professionally and received an accompanying promotion, that came with a 'salary bump' (~$4k) that was disappointingly small but that was meant to be addressed during normal end-of-year raises. I've been chronically underpaid in this industry, and have recently become aware of an $18k gap between my own pay and a friend who received her qualifications at the same time as myself. Our only difference is she works for a much larger firm - we have the same level of experience, and I probably have more responsibility. The pay issue is starting to chafe, but I want to know how others have handled or have received a request from an employee for what will be a substantive jump in pay. I don't plan on asking for $18k, but would like to see my pay raised by about $10-12k. I hate negotiating pay stuff, which is why I'm asking. My history with my employer saw me ask for and receive an additional week of vacation during raise-time last year (where I received a measly $1500 as a raise, but also received $5500 in non-guaranteed bonuses this year). Secondly, I am well appreciated in my job, but haven't done anything amazing or stand-outish since receiving my promotion, and have had the unfortunate timing to be very sick in November, followed by losing my grandmother last week, which has meant that my boss' recent memory of my work performance will most likely be of me being out of the office followed by hurredly plowing through work backlogs. Any advice would be appreciated.
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Dec 14, 2015 18:42
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Spadoink posted:Question: I've been working at a small firm for the last two years. In the summer I passed exams and am now differently qualified professionally and received an accompanying promotion, that came with a 'salary bump' (~$4k) that was disappointingly small but that was meant to be addressed during normal end-of-year raises. I've been chronically underpaid in this industry, and have recently become aware of an $18k gap between my own pay and a friend who received her qualifications at the same time as myself. Our only difference is she works for a much larger firm - we have the same level of experience, and I probably have more responsibility. The pay issue is starting to chafe, but I want to know how others have handled or have received a request from an employee for what will be a substantive jump in pay. I don't plan on asking for $18k, but would like to see my pay raised by about $10-12k. Not sure how to navigate this generally but realize that firm size often determines pay since there is often a drastic difference in their billable hour rate. I have colleagues who also have this issue where they have more responsibility than those at a larger firm but receive less pay.
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Dec 14, 2015 18:57
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You can get that 18k pay raise if you want, but I'd personally guess that you'll need to change companies to do it. You're going to have much more leverage at a place that has invested time in interviewing you, and wants to convince you to join. Compare that to your boss, who will assume you'll stick around anyway, because most people would do so in your situation.
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Dec 14, 2015 19:36
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If they haven't done year end raises yet, then I'd ask your boss for a sit down to discuss salary and then make your case based on accomplishments and potentially average pay for your position. If they have, or that doesn't work then go find another job that pays you what you're worth.
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Dec 14, 2015 19:50
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I guess I'll just be sitting down with her and raising my case. The factors in my favour are that she really wants to keep everyone here and happy (she offered to pay to fly me out to my grandmother's funeral, for example), we are doing really well and expanding both in office size and adding another lawyer on for a branch office elsewhere. The factors against mainly come down into having been here for over two years without having brought up issues with my pay previously, and our office expansion could be eating at the firm's overall take. I'm also not a lawyer (though obvs in a law firm) and though my qualifications make me equal to a lawyer for the purpose of file management and representation etc, there is still a stigma against my not being a lawyer, if that makes any sense. I have no intention of leaving, this is an amazing place to work (example: I never work overtime, I have 3 weeks vacation plus we have a paid shut down over the holidays from Christmas Eve - 1st working day in January, I know my boss appreciates me and frequently consults me on cases and scenarios and listens to my view, etc) but I'd hate for salary to become a festering sore on my backside. I have a hard time arguing why I'm worth a raise or other increase, and as such do sometimes miss ye olden days of corporate pay scales with clearly defined raise and bonus structures :/
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Dec 14, 2015 21:36
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Keep in mind that your friend who makes 18k more, probably has shittier benefits and more corporate BS to deal with on a weekly basis. Basically the reasons you don't want to leave. Small companies frequently compensate for lower pay by giving more non-pay benefits such as an extra week of vacation. If you're not willing to leave you have a weak negotiating position. If more money is a priority, you're going to probably have to reconsider changing companies.
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Dec 15, 2015 15:58
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Saint Fu posted:Keep in mind that your friend who makes 18k more, probably has shittier benefits and more corporate BS to deal with on a weekly basis. Basically the reasons you don't want to leave. Small companies frequently compensate for lower pay by giving more non-pay benefits such as an extra week of vacation. Yeah, it is important to keep in mind the difference between salary and total compensation, both tangible and intangible. Despite most people only ever comparing salary, benefits and total comp can add up to some serious real money and quality of life differences. I just had a case of this a couple weeks ago when a friend of mine was asking for some retirement account planning advice. He recently changed jobs, and along with it came a much higher salary for him. He was asking for some retirement/saving advice and we got to talking about specifics. He does similar work to me with similar schedule, but his salary is almost 15k higher than mine. But what I didn't know was how utterly bad his benefits package is. He's a W2 employee but has no 401k, no direct health insurance plan but a "reimbursement" to go buy your own (pain in the rear end), minimal holidays, and only 2 weeks combined vacation+sick PTO. Conversely, despite being down 15k on salary, I have a great 401k that I max out plus 4% employer match, 100% paid-for HDHP insurance + $125/mo into my HSA, $1800/yr in additional vision/dental reimbursement, 3 weeks vacation, 10 sick days that roll over, 10 company holidays, paid-for parking/transit pass, and an annual profit share that has averaged about $4500/yr. Plus a few other fringe benefits that aren't worth mentioning here. Looking at only salary one would assume that my friend has the "better" job, but when you look at the whole picture it becomes a different story. The 401k difference almost bridges the salary gap by itself since it lowers/defers my annual tax burden by over $5000 (at 28%), plus the employer match of over $4000, and it is all put into low-cost passive index funds. Guinness fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Dec 15, 2015 |
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Dec 15, 2015 20:04
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So I think I'm being given a lovely deal by my employer but I wanted to check here if I'm missing anything. Basically, they've given me the "opportunity" to buy equity in the company, but it only vests once I've accumulated $150k, and I likely get the equity at the fair market value when it vests. That's at least all they've told me so far. This seems really lovely - this provides numerous benefits to my employer: deferring compensation which will be paid by dilution, tying me to the company, etc., while all I get is the ability to reduce my paycheck to some day hopefully accrue $150k of stock at a price supposedly raised by my contributions to my employer's bottom line. To accumulate that money without me essentially putting all of my financial eggs in one basket, the success of which would be highly correlated with my employment, would take quite some time. There might be some benefit if it's structured in a way that I'd just be paying LTCG instead of income tax but that's all I can think of, and that hardly outweighs the cons. So as it stands I'm almost surely going to turn this down, but the lovely part is that I would gladly hold some equity in the company; it's an up and coming company in a lucrative industry. Have any of you dealt with this? I would like to try to tilt this more in my favor but I'm not sure what adjustments to ask for. If it vested once I accumulated $50k, and at a discount from fair market value at the time I originally contributed the money, I think I'd be happy, and I don't think it's an absurd request. They were explicit that the reason they were offering this was that they wanted me to stay for the long term. How do I politely point out that I am not going to pay them to make sure leaving is difficult?
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Jan 9, 2016 19:37
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What exactly are they offering you the opportunity to buy? RSUs? Restricted stock? Options? Most employee retention stock grants vest over a predefined period -- I've never heard of them triggering when a set quantity is accumulated. Is it possible you misunderstood the vesting schedule or it was explained badly? If they are offering you some exotic grant type or something they came up with on their own I'd have a tax attorney take a look at it. It's probably illegal. If they claim to be offering you the opportunity to straight up invest you should be getting common stock at the very least.
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Jan 10, 2016 00:34
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It will be common stock, yeah. Essentially I could say contribute some percentage of my salary/bonus and once that reaches $150k it would convert to common stock as far as I understand it.
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Jan 10, 2016 00:48
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ohgodwhat posted:It will be common stock, yeah. Essentially I could say contribute some percentage of my salary/bonus and once that reaches $150k it would convert to common stock as far as I understand it. If it's not common stock at the time you purchase it it's got to be some other kind of vehicle. If it's restricted stock and you can negotiate some kind of payoff if you leave before you hit $150k it's maybe not a terrible offer depending on what kind of discount they are offering and what kind of terms you can get but I'd start looking for a new job if it's anything else. There's almost no non-shady reason they aren't offering you RSUs or options instead.
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Jan 10, 2016 00:51
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Perhaps they are RSUs. I might have misunderstood, I was just thinking RSUs had to vest over time, and not based on some other criteria. Whatever it is, there is no discount. As it stands I won't be accepting it. What's a more usual way a company would handle this?
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Jan 10, 2016 01:00
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ohgodwhat posted:Perhaps they are RSUs. I might have misunderstood, I was just thinking RSUs had to vest over time, and not based on some other criteria. Whatever it is, there is no discount. Usually you are granted RSUs or options that vest over 3-4 years with a cliff at one year (which means they don't start vesting until one year has passed). RSUs are straight up grants of stock that you receive with no payment required while options are a contract you can exercise anytime after they vest that allow you to buy units of stock for some fixed price.
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Jan 10, 2016 01:27
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Ah so yeah they're definitely not offering RSUs. Ugh, this is very frustrating. Except for this bullshit the company is pretty solid.
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Jan 10, 2016 01:49
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ohgodwhat posted:Ah so yeah they're definitely not offering RSUs. Ugh, this is very frustrating. Except for this bullshit the company is pretty solid. What they are offering you is very likely illegal or at least tax fraud. I'd try to get a copy of the contract they are offering amd show it to a lawyer if you plan to stay at the company.
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Jan 10, 2016 02:07
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Dustoph posted:
Reading the thread months later, but leave leave leave. You have to deal with so much bullshit in a corporate environment, but I've increased my salary by over a third and mayyyyy be about to see another huge increase with a big promotion.
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Jan 17, 2016 06:29
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So I have an interview this week with a company who I did not specify a salary range to on either the application or during the phone screening (I put negotiable on the app, and they never asked on the phone). If they were to ask me what I'm looking for during the interview, what is the best way to deflect/not be the first to throw out a number without being a jackass about it?
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Jan 20, 2016 17:02
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I have received an offer from a new company for my current salary+33% to do my current job (software, automated QA), plus some added DevOps/release management stuff, which they will be training new to do. I was contacted for this role by an outside recruiter on LinkedIn. I am frequently contacted by recruiters for offers to do basically my current job, but this is the first offer to train me for the new stuff. I know for a fact that the DevOps market around here is very employee friendly (we just spent 6 months looking for one, and I've heard recruiters say the same). So, no brainer to move, right? I mostly think so, but here's the catch. The benefits and work environment offered by my current company are very good for the area. The current company is very profitable and growing. The new company's benefits are quite bad (1% base salary 401k match, 90 day waiting period for insurance and 401k eligibility, half of bonus paid in stock in a private company). I know they went through a tough period 2 years ago, but glass door and such don't show problems lately. It's a red flag though. I'm still reasonably young, no house or kids, so I can afford some risk, but I'd also like to retire early, so the crappy retirement options are a big deal. I think i should counter for another 10k to make up for the match and bonus, and also ask for immediate starts to the benefits. Thoughts about the situation or my counter proposal?
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Jan 20, 2016 17:33
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Grumpwagon posted:I have received an offer from a new company for my current salary+33% to do my current job (software, automated QA), plus some added DevOps/release management stuff, which they will be training new to do. I was contacted for this role by an outside recruiter on LinkedIn. I am frequently contacted by recruiters for offers to do basically my current job, but this is the first offer to train me for the new stuff. I know for a fact that the DevOps market around here is very employee friendly (we just spent 6 months looking for one, and I've heard recruiters say the same). It's not clear how much 10k is, but if you want 10k then you should ask for more as they'll most likely counter offer with less.
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Jan 20, 2016 17:41
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Sorry, didn't mean to be opaque. The current offer is 100k
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Jan 20, 2016 17:55
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Gin_Rummy posted:So I have an interview this week with a company who I did not specify a salary range to on either the application or during the phone screening (I put negotiable on the app, and they never asked on the phone). If they were to ask me what I'm looking for during the interview, what is the best way to deflect/not be the first to throw out a number without being a jackass about it? You basically have to be willing to be a prick at some point, depending on how enthusiastic you are for the job. But don't start off being a prick, let them force you there: Interviewer: "Well we're really enthusiastic about you as a candidate, what are your salary requirements?" You: "Well my skillset is in demand and I have a good history of work, so I'm looking to be ahead of the market. What are you prepared to offer?" (At this point one of two things happen: they disclose a range, or you are now in a battle of wills. In the former:) I: "We're able to offer between $x and y." (You start negotiating with Y.) (In the latter:) I: "We need to take salary requirements from the candidate to get authorization to arrange all of the quark gluons for our tachyon powered budgeting application..." Y: "Look, if you're interviewing you have some budget in mind for the person you're going to hire and I'm asking you to tell me what you have in mind." I: "We really need you to disclose a number first." Y: "Well, I don't do that, so you can tell me what you've budgeted or we can conclude this interview." I: "$Y" There's no hard and fast rules about who has to say what first, but there are hard and fast rules about who has more leverage once disclosing information. It will come down to how stubborn both your personalities are, how aggressively you want to negotiate, and how willing you are to let the opportunity go to some other candidate. If when asked for salary requirements you ask them to make an offer, and they come back to demand you quote a number first, you've both rejected doing what you know the other party wants and are now behaving adversarially. Once you're openly adversarial it comes down to who is willing to behave in a manner consistent with the strongest BATNA. If you like your job well enough and are not in urgent need to leave, then you can actually walk through all the above and force them to either name a number first or tank the interview. If they have multiple candidates they like and they like you only a teeny bit more, then they can actually walk through all the above and force you to leave the interview without getting a number. But the important point is that once you're openly adversarial you do not have to worry about being a dick. You just have to be a polite dick, assert yourself confidently, and be dispassionate and objective about the fact that you are conducting adversarial negotiations. Don't let it get personal and you'll be fine.
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Jan 20, 2016 18:29
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Second question somewhat related to my above situation. My current job pays out a fully company discretionary bonus twice a year (not tied to say, commissions, or meeting specific goals). It's usually around 5k each time. My boss is going to offer that to me before the end of the month, to be paid at the end of the month. It has explicitly been called a H2 2015 bonus. I intend to give notice Feb 1st (assuming I come to an agreement with the new company). I'm not in a small industry, but I am in a small to midsized Midwestern city, and I'd like to stay here. There's a decent tech presence here, but it's not the bay area or anything. Am I burning a bridge by taking the bonus? I likely will regardless, I'm just wondering if this matters or is insignificant.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:15
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