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By the way, how exactly does the concept of federal land work anyway? I mean, is it like the public library where anyone can access it any time during the hours where it's open? If you're a farmer, or a rancher or whatever, are you allowed to go in there and let your cows eat grass and such as long as the BLM permits or what?
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Jan 10, 2016 02:48
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAus1lXNWGU Barrett Kaiser, of Center for Western Priorities addressing a crowd near the standoff. Gotta love the rear end in a top hat getting up in his face asking his name repeatedly.
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Jan 10, 2016 02:51
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Hahahahaha It's all over. Ammon Bundy has transferred the land from the federal government back to We The People. Game over.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:02
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CommieGIR posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAus1lXNWGU That man was trying to steal his power by learning his TRUE NAME. As a Millennial I posted:Hahahahaha TL;DW please?
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Jan 10, 2016 03:02
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As a Millennial I posted:Hahahahaha AHAHAHAHAH! So he really is going full Sovereign Citizen. What a doofus. Crain posted:TL;DW please? Basically: Bundy is claiming they own the land now, and that they are going through the records available on site to 'give' the land to people who are using them. Sovereign Citizen level legal stupidity.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:07
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CommieGIR posted:Basically: Bundy is claiming they own the land now, and that they are going through the records available on site to 'give' the land to people who are using them. But not to the Native American tribe that used to live on it, right?
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Jan 10, 2016 03:13
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Horking Delight posted:But not to the Native American tribe that used to live on it, right? Well, no, because they probably won't let cattle graze, mining companies work, and lumber companies come in. Freedom.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:14
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CommieGIR posted:
But I'm sure no laws were broken nor crimes committed during this, to assume otherwise is akin to a new holocaust.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:17
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Crain posted:TL;DW please? I already did. It's like a minute long.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:18
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As a Millennial I posted:Hahahahaha claiming federal lands for themselves under force deffo not insurrection no siree
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Jan 10, 2016 03:18
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As a Millennial I posted:I already did. It's like a minute long. Ah. ok. I'm going to be very surprised if any actual companies take them up on offers to "break into the area". I'd like to assume mining/farming companies are smart enough not to engage these morons in business, but, well, here we are.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:19
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The intro to the Bundy video felt familiar - the flames, the font, the audio, where have I seen this before?
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Jan 10, 2016 03:21
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McDowell posted:The intro to the Bundy video felt familiar - the flames, the font, the audio, where have I seen this before? White, hot, shrieking ball of rage? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjonGtrCyVE
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Jan 10, 2016 03:26
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Condiv posted:sure glad these shitheads get to rifle through gov computers and drive gov trucks while the fbi does nothing They should be using the USGCB from NIST for configuring the computers. If so, noone is getting into them.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:27
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Not sure if the Col. Trautman school of conflict de-escalation is working or not, but it is providing some entertainment.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:31
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Condiv posted:how so? 1-2 militia men pose much less of a threat than 12-20 militia men Who What Now posted:Who gives a poo poo? Doing nothing feeds into their narrative that the federal government is weak and afraid of them, too. There's still no reason to arrest them for it now when they can do it in two weeks with zero risk to civilians, and without feeding the oppression narrative. The oppression narrative is the one that has broader draw among their audience, and it's why the feds don't rush in. The state can charge and arrest these people right up to the statute of limitations, which gives them years to work with. There's no reason to pursue it instantly when it risks getting people killed.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:31
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Horking Delight posted:But not to the Native American tribe that used to live on it, right? So of course they'd never do it.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:32
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Crain posted:TL;DW please? Essentially it's just more of Ammon Bundy yammering incoherently without any clear message, the same thing he's been doing since the siege started. He spends 2 minutes talking about how they want to take the public land to some system where "The hiker can hike, the logger can log, the rancher can ranch" basically just more of the same rhetoric they've been having about disbanding the BLM and letting the land be stripmined. Also on that page is more links to their pathetic whitehouse.gov petition they have been begging people to sign, to petition the president to release the Hammonds from jail immediately. At currently they have less than 1/10th of the signatures required to even reach the standard whitehouse.gov 'goal' for petitions. Ammon appears to have no win condition for disbanding their militia and no clear message. But their main talking point seems to be that the BLM requires people to pay for permits to use the land for grazing and moving their cattle across, and will revoke those permits if the ranchers abuse it. So the local community essentially wants to remove the BLM to allow them to graze the land freely. They also have some vague goal of giving all the BLM managed land to the ranchers so the ranchers can auction off the natural resources, strip mine the whole place, and make a profit. In actual 'things are happening' news last night the town held another meeting of their "Committee of Safety". This is a local city-state government system the 13 colonies used before the declaration of independence. This Committee lasted about 3 hours. They started it by asking Ammon to pack up his occupation and leave. Then spent the next 3 hours with an open mic for angry hick ranchers and militia guys to stand up and bitch about the 'gubment'. The town also is claiming this "Committee of Safety" gives them local power to call up and disband militias, which they tried to exercise against the Ammon occupation to disband it. Sadly none of these tactics of "Using their stupid constitution bullshit against them" appears to have worked as Ammon remains entrenched in the BLM buildings and continues to ignore the Sheriff, the town, and the Committee of Safety asking him to gently caress off. At this time it appears as though the FBI and other law enforcement is content to take absolutely no action whatsoever. There are constant rumblings in the militia camp that they are going to get raided any minute,and occasionally they start yammering about how the attack is coming and take a defensive posture, but the FBI seems to just be ignoring them. People come and go freely from the camp. There was some excitement today when a heavily armed contingent from one of the other insane militia groups showed up and started posturing. And some hilarious interactions where bundy was asking -them- to leave. And there seems to be tension between all of the different militia groups as well. A guy got up on the mic last night from one militia group to discuss how all the other groups in the area were racists and white supremacists.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:33
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Wait so have there even been any announcement of criminal charges yet? No warrants? Also, lol at the idea that WACO and Ruby Ridge were anything but lessons in not getting into armed stand offs with the federal government. There was a reason there have been so few since then. Unfortunately the lesson learned now is that the government is more worried about PR and bad optics than dealing with armed criminals who happen to be white conservatives. Also laughable is the notion that OKC bombing was anything but a wake up call that militias shouldn't be resorting to terrorism if they want to continue existing. The entire militia movement needs public support to exist, and carrying out domestic terrorism is an instant game over for them, and they loving know it, which is why poo poo like that has yet to happen again since then. The only reason storming in there is bad besides risking federal agent's lives (but hey guess what, there is a reason Law Enforcement agencies have equipment and training for poo poo likes this) is because it would suck for the property to suffer any more damage than it probably already has, especially since it houses native American documents. The longer these dumbasses get to do whatever they want and keep being the center of attention, the more of a threat they become in inspiring such behavior. That is far worse than these jackasses getting hurt in the process of being apprehended.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:39
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They really need to get the local tribe in there and tell them to GTFO if that land has been returned to it's original owners. I'd love to hear them try to explain why, no, it's actually the white man's property now. 
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Jan 10, 2016 03:39
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Horking Delight posted:But not to the Native American tribe that used to live on it, right? If you bring up or mention anything about the land going to native americans instead of the ranchers, they get -really- angry. Most of them will just tell you not to bring racism into this. That it's not about race, it's about the ranchers. The less PC ones will either start ranting about how the native americans should have fought harder for the land, or that the native americans are just seeing what karma is like now that the BLM is doing it to the white man. The ranchers themselves will just tell you they -are- native now because their white ancestors have worked the land for 4 or so generations. I've seen more than a few ranchers declare themselves to be "native" since they've lived there for generations so it's their land now according to them, indians have no claim anymore.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:42
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BadOptics posted:They really need to get the local tribe in there and tell them to GTFO if that land has been returned to it's original owners. I'd love to hear them try to explain why, no, it's actually the white man's property now. They literally did, and the response was even better than that. quote:"They just need to get the hell out of here," tribal council member Jarvis Kennedy told a crowd of reporters and local residents who showed up to listen to what the tribe had to say on the matter. http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/06/us/native-tribe-blasts-oregon-takeover/index.html Watch the video at about a minute in if you want to see one smug-rear end prick say "well maybe if they stood up for their rights they'd get their land back!"   
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Jan 10, 2016 03:49
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Volkerball posted:jfc What are you expecting from people who waited a whole week and only showed up when no police crackdown was forthcoming? I think you're overestimating the significance of anyone who arrives this late in the game The only thing they're doing by showing up now is incriminating themselves, and the FBI is certainly inclined to let them. Letting reinforcements come freely also makes it super easy to slip in informants and undercover agents. Seriously, for anyone who's wondering why the feds are acting the way they are, the Hutaree case is required reading. A high-profile militia prosecution ending in a six-month slap on the wrist or having the charges outright dismissed by a judge would lead to consequences a thousand times worse than letting them run free for a couple of years while the FBI builds an ironclad case.
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Jan 10, 2016 03:55
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Main Paineframe posted:What are you expecting from people who waited a whole week and only showed up when no police crackdown was forthcoming? I think you're overestimating the significance of anyone who arrives this late in the game The only thing they're doing by showing up now is incriminating themselves, and the FBI is certainly inclined to let them. Letting reinforcements come freely also makes it super easy to slip in informants and undercover agents. What on earth possesses you to believe that they are actually going to round these people up. The Hutarees had illegal machine guns
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Jan 10, 2016 03:59
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CommieGIR posted:AHAHAHAHAH! So wait, I thought they weren't going through the records there because that would be illegal and they were most definitely not breaking the law, nosiree. Now they're saying they have gone through things that aren't theirs, and in fact tampered with government documents, and have thus stolen the land there? Oh boy.
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Jan 10, 2016 04:06
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Didn't playing the passive game last time result in no arrests and two cops getting killed in a mall?
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Jan 10, 2016 04:06
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Here's the truth of it; political pressure has dictated the FBI's response to white militias throughout the entire Obama administration. Liberals apparently tittered and hoodwinked themselves into believing that the government is patiently building an "ironclad case." But this was always about optics. And now that the bundinos are breaking more and more laws in an increasingly flagrant manner (now culminating in rifling through government documents), it's too loving late to act without everybody in the media pretending that it was all just about a "protest" and then the government escalated. loving backfire, moron Obama.
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Jan 10, 2016 04:10
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Horking Delight posted:But not to the Native American tribe that used to live on it, right? Which tribes would those be, and for how long does evidence exist that their tribe exerted ownership over the land?
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Jan 10, 2016 04:12
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SedanChair posted:They literally did, and the response was even better than that. Really dumb, but is there any significance to that guy's face tattoo? I've just never seen anything like that specifically before and I'm curious if it's a Pacific-Northwest Indian custom I'm ignorant of or if he just came up with something really cool.
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Jan 10, 2016 04:14
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My Imaginary GF posted:Which tribes would those be, and for how long does evidence exist that their tribe exerted ownership over the land? Shut the gently caress up MIGF. There's multiple links about that situation. Some on this page even.
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Jan 10, 2016 04:18
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My Imaginary GF posted:Which tribes would those be, and for how long does evidence exist that their tribe exerted ownership over the land? That wasn't a joke. There's literally a Native American tribe (the Burns Paiute tribe, from what I can gather, but other local tribes have weighed in as well) that works with the federal government to preserve the land/cultural artifacts in the area and has worked with that specific wildlife refuge before. http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/burns_piaute_tribe_militants_s.html#incart_big-photo posted:The Paiute Tribe once occupied a large swath of land that includes the Malheur National Wildlife refuge — archaeological evidence dates back 6,000 years — but they were forced out in the late 1870s. Before settlers arrived, the tribe used it as a wintering ground, said Charlotte Rodrique, the tribal chair. As others have pointed out, there's tons of other articles about it.
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Jan 10, 2016 04:43
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So then, if the Tribes come up with a valid claim for having been victimized by the bundys, the government is obligated by treaty to prosecute them? That would kind of be hilarious to see, The Bundy Brothers' heads would probably explode.
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Jan 10, 2016 04:51
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Mr Interweb posted:By the way, how exactly does the concept of federal land work anyway? I mean, is it like the public library where anyone can access it any time during the hours where it's open? If you're a farmer, or a rancher or whatever, are you allowed to go in there and let your cows eat grass and such as long as the BLM permits or what? Straight BLM land that's not set aside for wildlife restoration or closed for other reasons can be accessed by anybody 24/7/365 for free. You can find BLM land, drive there, and camp for up to 14 days in a single spot. Move 100 yards away and you can camp another 14 days. Totally free. You can shoot guns, ride ATVs or dirtbikes, 4x4s, hike, hoot and holler, whatever. Also BLM land doesn't fall under a lot of state laws or ordinances, for instance if there's a statewide campfire ban, it doesn't apply on BLM land. BLM land is awesome plain and simple and everyone who lives East of Colorado doesn't know what they're missing.
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Jan 10, 2016 04:54
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My Imaginary GF posted:Which tribes would those be, and for how long does evidence exist that their tribe exerted ownership over the land? Really... you're pulling western property land rights over people who intentionally small poxed the gently caress out of Native Americans? What... the .... gently caress
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Jan 10, 2016 04:54
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ToastyPotato posted:Didn't playing the passive game last time result in no arrests and two cops getting killed in a mall? The federal government still has the ability to charge everyone who committed crimes at the ranch. That they haven't been charged or arrested yet does not mean the feds aren't going to do so. The double murder has to be measured against the risks of alternative approaches, not in a vacuum.
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Jan 10, 2016 04:55
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Horking Delight posted:That wasn't a joke. There's literally a Native American tribe (the Burns Paiute tribe, from what I can gather, but other local tribes have weighed in as well) that works with the federal government to preserve the land/cultural artifacts in the area and has worked with that specific wildlife refuge before. I'll provide one too. Here is a critique of the nativist white bullshit MIGF seems to spew. Focuses on analyzing Stuart Banner's book How The Indians Lost Their Land and critiques it hard. This took me 5 minutes of research. Holy gently caress. http://www.ericfoner.com/reviews/020906lrb.html Critique of Imperialist Bullshit posted:Ultimately, How the Indians Lost Their Land illustrates the weaknesses of a history focused on laws and ideas divorced from their social, political and military context. To be sure, Banner is fully aware that ‘formal law and actual practice could diverge.’ But this radical understatement is typical of an account that seems oddly antiseptic given the violence that always infused Indian-white relations. Banner unnecessarily plays down the role of outright military subjugation in land acquisition. ‘Much more land was obtained by purchase than by conquest,’ he writes, while providing no figures to substantiate this claim.
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Jan 10, 2016 05:01
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So I have to wonder, if a group of Afghani Muslim immigrants did what the Bundys are doing right now, would people be saying we can't do anything about it because it might spark another 9/11?
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Jan 10, 2016 05:04
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Stop replying to MIGF you idiots.Booourns posted:So I have to wonder, if a group of Afghani Muslim immigrants did what the Bundys are doing right now, would people be saying we can't do anything about it because it might spark another 9/11? There'd be dozens more attacks on Sikhs, for starters.
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Jan 10, 2016 05:05
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Discendo Vox posted:The federal government still has the ability to charge everyone who committed crimes at the ranch. That they haven't been charged or arrested yet does not mean the feds aren't going to do so. The double murder has to be measured against the risks of alternative approaches, not in a vacuum. Of course the have the ability to do so, but they didn't and they haven't, and because of their hands off approach, these dummies are now trying to instigate a new confrontation elsewhere, and also two cops were murdered because the feds let the situation grow massively toxic through the media. The older question of how different this would be if they were Muslim ISIS sympathizers really should be brought up as much as possible because the fact of the matter is that no one would be questioning law enforcement's decision to end the situation as quickly as possibly with whatever means they had (again, damage to the refuge itself not being included here). No one would be saying that we shouldn't be putting LEO lives in danger to fight terrorists. The fact that so many people are insisting these guys are totally harmless is what is making some other people angry. They are only being considered harmless and laughable because they are white good ol' boys. The reporting and reactions to this situation would be massively different if these dudes were different looking, and that is infuriating, because no one would be questioning it then.
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Jan 10, 2016 05:06
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Evil Fluffy posted:Stop replying to MIGF you idiots.
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