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The-Mole posted:about 4k calories a day if you're being at all active. Good thing for them they have a fuckload of potatoes i guess Edit: I'm pretty sure theyre all inside with heating for most of the day except for whatever clown is on guard duty shift that period
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Jan 10, 2016 11:09
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Discendo Vox posted:Then you haven't been paying attention. Is this how you admit you were wrong, or...?
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Jan 10, 2016 11:38
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Jizz Festival posted:Is this how you admit you were wrong, or...? Terrorism is like other techniques of minority political groups in that it is primarily effective by manipulating the more powerful opposing party into a response that will make the terrorist sympathetic to third parties, leveraging shifts in the power dynamic. Terrorism is effected with that goal in mind. vvvv I wasn't aware the Bundys had the tacit support of the government. Your definition of terrorism is both overbroad and outdated. All of your posts in this thread have been backbiting shitposts. 
Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 12:04 on Jan 10, 2016 |
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Jan 10, 2016 11:41
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Discendo Vox posted:Terrorism is like other techniques of minority political groups in that it is primarily effective by manipulating the more powerful opposing party into a response that will make the terrorist sympathetic to third parties, leveraging shifts in the power dynamic. Terrorism is effected with that goal in mind. Right, that's totally what the clan was trying to do with their terrorism campaign against blacks in the South. They were trying to gain sympathy for their cause and not control the black population through fear. Right.
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Jan 10, 2016 11:48
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Terrorism has become such a useless word for when you want to make yourself understood. Different people have different definitions in mind when they use it, and it has become so loaded that there are people who will use it to define any kind of violence, threat of violence, or implication of violence from any group or person they do not agree with. It confuses things more than it it helps at this point, and it causes people to talk past each other, each judging the other based on their own private definition of the word.
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Jan 10, 2016 12:09
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I'm pretty sure these fucks aren't terrorists. They're squatting in a federal building and making threats any pissed off rear end in a top hat does. unless you're saying some stupid kid should be jailed for twenty years when he says he'll kill someone because he's mad, or start jailing people for telling others to go kill themselves on the internet. i can understand the difference between them standing in some building saying they'll kill any fed that comes in and actively pointing a gun at a fed screaming they'll kill him, do you?
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Jan 10, 2016 12:31
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I think the bigger surprise is that if they weren't white farmers they would be dead.
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Jan 10, 2016 12:37
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You can really tell the maybe 10 people in this mighty militia really have military level training when they were already starving by day 1. I hope they don't give them anything and just lay an ambush with tranquilizers when any of them tries to get into another fist fight or forage for food. Neutralize them non lethally like the dumb gun crazed southern animals they are, but keep a real gun handy to put them down if they try and open fire.
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Jan 10, 2016 12:55
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Crabtree posted:You can really tell the maybe 10 people in this mighty militia really have military level training when they were already starving by day 1. I hope they don't give them anything and just lay an ambush with tranquilizers when any of them tries to get into another fist fight or forage for food. Neutralize them non lethally like the dumb gun crazed southern animals they are, but keep a real gun handy to put them down if they try and open fire. Tranquilizers are a bad idea and disfavored because its easy to mess up the dose and kill people with them irl
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Jan 10, 2016 14:01
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So, to recap the thread: *All too human revenge fantasies* *more liberal than thou humblebragging* "We should starve them out" "No! That's what they WANT us to do! " "We should get them out" "No! That's start they WANT us to do!" *snack meme* "If they were black they'd be dead long ago" *snack meme* Repeat repeat repeat
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Jan 10, 2016 14:01
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The word Terrorism, like freedom, has become so politically and ideologically charged that it actually has no meaning at all. Like repeating a word so many times until it feels foreign on your tongue - a mantra instead of a means of communication.
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Jan 10, 2016 14:21
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Crabtree posted:You can really tell the maybe 10 people in this mighty militia really have military level training when they were already starving by day 1. I hope they don't give them anything and just lay an ambush with tranquilizers when any of them tries to get into another fist fight or forage for food. Neutralize them non lethally like the dumb gun crazed southern animals they are, but keep a real gun handy to put them down if they try and open fire. I assume the most military people they have were trigger pullers who don't understand that war is nothing more than a massive logistics game and not won on the backs of personal heroism and sacrifice, hth.
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Jan 10, 2016 17:34
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Discendo Vox posted:Then you haven't been paying attention. No, what they want is a shootout that ends in either glorious martyrdom remembered for all time, or a victory. That's not a shootout. That's just stopping them from leaving/other people from joining. It's explicitly not a shootout. Besides, not giving them 'what they want' is kind've secondary to the safety of local citizens and the fact that they're breaking a whole bunch of laws on federal property and daring the Feds to do anything about it. The solution there is not 'do nothing about it because gosh that's what they want'. I get that the area itself makes this more difficult than it would otherwise be, but just saying 'no we can't because they waaant it' is ridiculous.
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Jan 10, 2016 17:34
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You know who else is lawless, armed, and looking for martyrdom? Instead of Planet Tyler we have Planet alBaghdadi, Planet Bundy, Planet Putin. They want to erase the past and write their own- a righteous, masculine, natural history. This is your life, and it is ending one minute at a time
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Jan 10, 2016 17:39
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The longer they wait, the more likely future killers will congregate there. McVeigh was at Waco loitering around and talking to press.
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Jan 10, 2016 17:40
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SedanChair posted:The longer they wait, the more likely future killers will congregate there. McVeigh was at Waco loitering around and talking to press. Remember that couple that shot up the walmart?
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Jan 10, 2016 17:42
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McDowell posted:Remember that couple that shot up the walmart? Was that the one where they literally draped a cop's body in a Gadsen flag and the press was like "who can know their motivations?"
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Jan 10, 2016 17:45
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Stop cherry picking an event that actually happened recently as a direct result of the ongoing behavior of the specific group of people that we are currently discussing!
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Jan 10, 2016 17:50
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SedanChair posted:Was that the one where they literally draped a cop's body in a Gadsen flag and the press was like "who can know their motivations?" Also they left behind a Tea Party manifesto If you need me, I'll be in the angry dome
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Jan 10, 2016 17:51
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SedanChair posted:Was that the one where they literally draped a cop's body in a Gadsen flag and the press was like "who can know their motivations?" Yes, now let me tell you about the LIEberal media and how they hate America. 
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Jan 10, 2016 17:57
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Jet Jaguar posted:I don't see any of these guys carrying beef jerky or trail mix... The-Mole posted:You notice in the pictures that they're all wearing pretty light pants and cotton hooded sweatshirts. That's hilariously inappropriate for the winter out there. They must be freezing their asses off. Makes sense that all the top items on their list are cold-weather related. If you're standing in that cold all day you want a major winter coat and about 4k calories a day if you're being at all active. Don't worry, they all brought their finest airsoft-grade cheap rear end tactical gear to show they're serious and mean business.
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Jan 10, 2016 18:03
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5w99LTKEA0 I'd like to add: gently caress Pete Santilli.
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Jan 10, 2016 18:04
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So instead of the whole "how about we wait and see what the FBI does down the road", how about we post some other cases where someone broke the law, cops showed up, got guns pointed at them by associates of said law breaker, entered a stand off, walked away, and filed no additional charges and issued no additional warrants for several months as part of a "grand strategy?" Because I certainly cannot remember off the top of my head anything happening like that before. The dudes at the ranch should have been arrested MONTHS ago just for entering an armed stand off with law enforcement. It is insane that people are actually arguing that it is totally fine to have let them go and that it is totally harmless to just wait and grab them whenever, when now some of them have gone on to commit another batch of crimes. I could understand if these were unarmed protesters, but they aren't. The very root of their "protest" is the threat of armed response to their law breaking. They aren't just raising awareness to some cause, they are looking for an excuse to murder people. It is unbelievable that people think it is ok to just keep letting them do whatever they want indefinitely. Do you think they will go peacefully 6 months from now? Do you know how many attempts at simple arrests turn violent every year? These guys are expecting it now. Why let them leave and scatter, or possibly reconvene somewhere else more dangerous? They are isolated and together right now. It is the most contained place to try to grab them since no bystanders are likely to be hurt if they fight back. You wait until they go back to their homes and suddenly these guys, who are not likely to be walking around unarmed, are going to end up in stand offs at work, or at MCDonald's, or at home with their families.
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Jan 10, 2016 18:07
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Turtle Sandbox posted:I assume the most military people they have were trigger pullers who don't understand that war is nothing more than a massive logistics game and not won on the backs of personal heroism and sacrifice, hth. I had the opposite impression, a bunch of support guys playing trigger puller who have never had to live off only what they could carry, or figure out how to they're going to get food when there's not a chow hall three tents down.
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Jan 10, 2016 18:09
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SocketWrench posted:I'm pretty sure these fucks aren't terrorists. They're squatting in a federal building and making threats any pissed off rear end in a top hat does. Nah, they haven't reached the level of terrorists. They're only scary because they're stupid assholes with guns who are itching to use them and believe they're fighting for a cause. I brought up terrorism because that's what OKC was, and the persistent argument in this thread that we can't enforce the law (it's so stupid I have to keep reiterating this, but you know WITHOUT KILLING ANYONE IF POSSIBLE) because what if a terrorist blows something else up? As for terror not being the point of terrorism, err. Apparently you win hearts and minds by killing civilians now or something (I'm not saying you don't win other crazies to your cause by killing the Evil Bad People We've Designated as Bad, but most people aren't going to be thrilled about it, even if they're ostensibly on your side, it's not primarily for PR), and for political purposes that won't be detailed because the political purpose is generally 'make the people I'm committing terrorism against do what I want out of fear'. EDIT: ToastyPotato posted:So instead of the whole "how about we wait and see what the FBI does down the road", how about we post some other cases where someone broke the law, cops showed up, got guns pointed at them by associates of said law breaker, entered a stand off, walked away, and filed no additional charges and issued no additional warrants for several months as part of a "grand strategy?" Because I certainly cannot remember off the top of my head anything happening like that before. The dudes at the ranch should have been arrested MONTHS ago just for entering an armed stand off with law enforcement. It is insane that people are actually arguing that it is totally fine to have let them go and that it is totally harmless to just wait and grab them whenever, when now some of them have gone on to commit another batch of crimes. I could understand if these were unarmed protesters, but they aren't. The very root of their "protest" is the threat of armed response to their law breaking. They aren't just raising awareness to some cause, they are looking for an excuse to murder people. It's kind've nonsense to call this a protest in the first place. It started as a protest, and evolved into a particularly weak form of hostage taking in which the ransom demand is laughable. The Bundy Ranch standoff wasn't a protest either, it was a bunch of armed loons that showed up to wave guns at cops and prevent them from doing their job in the case of Cliven Bundy--it was quite literally obstruction of justice. The people calling it a protest and equating it with protests are being pretty disingenuous. kartikeya fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jan 10, 2016 |
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Jan 10, 2016 18:17
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ToastyPotato posted:So instead of the whole "how about we wait and see what the FBI does down the road", how about we post some other cases where someone broke the law, cops showed up, got guns pointed at them by associates of said law breaker, entered a stand off, walked away, and filed no additional charges and issued no additional warrants for several months as part of a "grand strategy?" Because I certainly cannot remember off the top of my head anything happening like that before. The dudes at the ranch should have been arrested MONTHS ago just for entering an armed stand off with law enforcement. It is insane that people are actually arguing that it is totally fine to have let them go and that it is totally harmless to just wait and grab them whenever, when now some of them have gone on to commit another batch of crimes. I could understand if these were unarmed protesters, but they aren't. The very root of their "protest" is the threat of armed response to their law breaking. They aren't just raising awareness to some cause, they are looking for an excuse to murder people. Thank god we have competent professional and patient FBI agents handling this and not goons who think this. Get a grip, the people handling this know what they are doing more than angry blood-thirsty internet posters it turns out. Crabtree posted:You can really tell the maybe 10 people in this mighty militia really have military level training when they were already starving by day 1. I hope they don't give them anything and just lay an ambush with tranquilizers when any of them tries to get into another fist fight or forage for food. Neutralize them non lethally like the dumb gun crazed southern animals they are, but keep a real gun handy to put them down if they try and open fire. Change a couple words and you have a post that would be right in place in the freep thread. TROIKA CURES GREEK fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Jan 10, 2016 |
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Jan 10, 2016 18:30
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa42Xm2yuMI
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Jan 10, 2016 18:33
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SocketWrench posted:They're squatting in a federal building and making threats any pissed off rear end in a top hat does. You don't even know what squatting is. Stop making bad faith arguments. These aren't some assholes who decided they wanted to camp out in one spot for more than 14 days.
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Jan 10, 2016 18:39
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:Thank god we have competent professional and patient FBI agents handling this and not goons who think this. Get a grip, the people handling this know what they are doing more than angry blood-thirsty internet posters it turns out. He only mentioned arresting people, which is pretty far away from "blood-thirsty". You keep saying there is a great reason to never arrest these guys, but the way you say it makes it seem like we can't charge these particular people with any crime until we know all the ones they are going to commit in life. You respond to a person asking why we couldn't just pick up any of the people on film pointing a gun at federal officials at the Bundy Ranch at McDonald's in the past two years and you claim that it will lead to bloodshed and the case being tossed. Could you elaborate, or do you just want to pop in every few pages an mention that any action against these guys ever will lead to 1384022347 deaths and no prosecution? cunny mcalister fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Jan 10, 2016 |
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Jan 10, 2016 18:44
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kartikeya posted:No, what they want is a shootout that ends in either glorious martyrdom remembered for all time, or a victory. That's not a shootout. That's just stopping them from leaving/other people from joining. It's explicitly not a shootout. Besides, not giving them 'what they want' is kind've secondary to the safety of local citizens and the fact that they're breaking a whole bunch of laws on federal property and daring the Feds to do anything about it. The solution there is not 'do nothing about it because gosh that's what they want'. At this point if they want to be tear gassed and then zip tied and taken into custody, I see absolutely no problem with giving them what they want. No matter what they're going to claim victory, so better for them to claim victory in a jail cell awaiting trial.
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Jan 10, 2016 18:47
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The Bundy ranch standoff went the way it did because the BLM decided not to press the issue. It was the BLM's shitshow, top to bottom. It's not even clear to me which federal agencies are (or are going to be) involved in this, except I'm pretty sure it's not the BLM. The facility itself is managed by the US Fish & Wildlife Service, which is an entirely different arm of the Department of the Interior, but Fish & Wildlife's Office of Law Enforcement is mostly staffed by agents who specialize in illegal wildlife trade and habitat destruction. A lot of federal property is actually entirely under local law enforcement jurisdiction, or some kind of combined jurisdiction, so the degree of federal involvement may depend entirely on what local law enforcement asks for. A lot of people seem to be saying that the feds will let them off this time because the feds let them off last time, but the situations really aren't comparable because there are different agencies and decision makers involved.
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Jan 10, 2016 19:55
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Crain posted:You don't even know what squatting is. Stop making bad faith arguments. These aren't some assholes who decided they wanted to camp out in one spot for more than 14 days. Squatting, occupation, anal sex den, whatever. As of so far it's been and done absolutely poo poo gently caress nothing except keep once open lands closed. They don't even have anyone to stand off against.
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Jan 10, 2016 19:55
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SocketWrench posted:As of so far it's been and done absolutely poo poo gently caress nothing except keep once open lands closed. Completely untrue. Not even on a semantic level. They have done far more than just sticking around after closing time. You're being deliberately dishonest with how you're trying to describe the situation. Multiple people, including me, have gone over the kinds of charges they are facing and it goes well beyond simply squatting.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:03
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SocketWrench posted:Squatting, occupation, anal sex den, whatever. As of so far it's been and done absolutely poo poo gently caress nothing except keep once open lands closed. They don't even have anyone to stand off against. Yeah except for disrupting ongoing conservation work, pillaging records that may not be duplicated elsewhere, etc. If my parks biologist had his office occupied indefinitely it would gently caress a lot of stuff up. I don't know what their biologist has going on, but in our case it would tank several hundred thousand dollars worth of ongoing research work, without even getting into whatever equipment they are stealing and / or loving up. Our historian's office is full of stuff that is absolutely not duplicated elsewhere. Decades of oral history, notes, primary sources, etc would be lost if someone occupied his office and trashed his stuff. I don't know if they have a historian, but they probably have a cultural resources person, and that persons office probably has materials that would be difficult to replace. Every computer network that building is connects to has to be treated as compromised. It's going to cost money to figure out what they've accessed and repair damage. The Paiutes have said they have important materials in that office relating to their land status, cultural history, etc. who knows what costs will be incurred if these guys gently caress all that up. I like that some of you seem to think federal public lands offices have absolutely no ongoing work and we just, like, whittle sticks all day or something, but that is not in fact true.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:13
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kartikeya posted:Nah, they haven't reached the level of terrorists. They're only scary because they're stupid assholes with guns who are itching to use them and believe they're fighting for a cause. Assholes with guns breaking the law while threatening violence against the federal government in order to force them to change their policies. Certainly can't be considered terrorism, no siree.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:20
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Internet Webguy posted:Assholes with guns breaking the law while threatening violence against the federal government in order to force them to change their policies. Certainly can't be considered terrorism, no siree. They're kind've bad at being scary to the people they want to be scary to (IE, the government) and bad at being non-threatening to the people they want to be non-threatening to (the local population). But yeah, you're right. Incompetence doesn't really make you less of a terrorist. I think they straddle the line for a lot of people mostly because they couch all their violent rhetoric in a 'well only if you force us to defend ourselves' kind of way. The Bundy Ranch standoff had literal, if willing (maybe) hostages, so uh.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:35
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I'm going to laugh so hard if they end up getting Scurvy.
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Jan 10, 2016 20:49
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Hollismason posted:I'm going to laugh so hard if they end up getting Scurvy. I'm pretty sure eating the slice of tomato from a burger you buy at the local restaurant is enough to keep you from getting scurvy. I'm gonna be pissed if they stay the several months necessary to develop scurvy.
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Jan 10, 2016 21:01
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Horking Delight posted:I'm pretty sure eating the slice of tomato from a burger you buy at the local restaurant is enough to keep you from getting scurvy. Pretty much, the human body is remarkably good at utilizing vitamin c. Fun fact though, human and guinea pigs are the only mammals that need to get it through their diet rather than producing it themselves through exposure to sunlight.
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Jan 10, 2016 21:28
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Hollismason posted:I'm going to laugh so hard if they end up getting Scurvy. It's actually extremely hard to get scurvy on accident in the modern era. We add so many extra vitamins and minerals to just random junk foods that you're probably good no matter what you do. The only people who get scurvy anymore are people who do really dumb, extreme diets. Like meat only or only licking celery once a day.
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Jan 10, 2016 21:29
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