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Popular Thug Drink posted:which they won't do, because then they're clearly the aggressor instead of posturing to make themselves the victims of big bad government Thus why there is no impending need to oust them from a bird refugee center.
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Jan 11, 2016 18:45
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Popular Thug Drink posted:which they won't do, because then they're clearly the aggressor instead of posturing to make themselves the victims of big bad government As with everything else, they have a hosed-up sense of reality. When they end up killing others they see it as their hand having been forced by tyranny. Keep underselling this.
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Jan 11, 2016 18:49
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LeoMarr posted:Yes stating that planning a raid that won't kill people takes time is equal to claiming that any raid would kill everyone. However denying freedom of movement in the form of roadblock poses the issue of creating a true siege which could be called an insurrection. Doing so justifies the insurrectionists agenda and now puts a true red line that must be crossed. I am sure that all of their movements are being watched via Satellite imaging and drone tech, If they are going in and out of town to get supplies daily then why stop them? If Bundy were to leave the county he would be grabbed immediately. However if they are staying within a miniscule sect of land then they are already blocked in. It's just larger than a roadblock. Bundy or any other ring leader go far enough they are gone. What the FBI is really worried about is them seizing the town. Then you would see a very different approach to the situation at hand. Honestly, it's looking like a roadblock is needed more to keep other people out than the militants in. The news stories I posted above talk about how a bunch of different group who actually oppose the Bundy group are going in to try and solve the situation because they don't think the FBI are doing anything at all. On top of that elected officials are going in to talk with the militants and according to one of the stories seem somewhat sympathetic to the cause. I'm sure the FBI has a great low key plan, but you kinda gotta keep people from loving it up by going in willy-nilly to play diplomacy.
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Jan 11, 2016 18:50
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Crain posted:Honestly, it's looking like a roadblock is needed more to keep other people out than the militants in. What are these other groups trying to do? Are they trying to get the Bundy's to leave or do they think the Feds give a poo poo about what they have to say?
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Jan 11, 2016 19:18
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mcclay posted:What are these other groups trying to do? Are they trying to get the Bundy's to leave or do they think the Feds give a poo poo about what they have to say? Oregon standoff: Unsolicited help flocks to Burns to 'assist' law enforcement quote:BURNS — Law enforcement officials are getting a lot of unsolicited help to end the ongoing armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
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Jan 11, 2016 19:25
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LeoMarr posted:It's the people in here that call for a raid every 30 seconds that really makes me laugh. Bundy And the Sons of Liberty: Armchair FBI Raid Planning Comittee People who blow up buildings full of innocent people are not reasonable people. It's pretty obvious a certain few posters in this thread aren't actually reading the thread or following the updates any more though, just posting the same bad faith arguments over and over again.
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Jan 11, 2016 19:29
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There have been three reported groups going to the militants: 1. The 3%ers, they're gone now 2. A group of fiveish elected officials 3. The local "committee of safety", which didn't actually go to the refuge and just had a meeting and press release. That's it. Blockading the refuge carries many of the same risks as raiding it. "Keeping people out" still involves guns and force under the eye of media cameras. It's also not particularly physically feasible. edit: Here's one of the representatives for the area venting about the occupation/ against the federal government in the House a couple days ago. transcript here. edit 2: The Orgonian has also published a great set of militant profiles. Tarp Man is Robert "LaVoy" Finicum. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jan 11, 2016 |
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Jan 11, 2016 19:33
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Discendo Vox posted:There have been three reported groups going to the militants: And the Pacific Patriots and (apparently) locals who have started actually bringing them supplies. You probably got the Pacific Patriots and 3%ers mixed up.
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Jan 11, 2016 19:51
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kartikeya posted:People who blow up buildings full of innocent people are not reasonable people. No. but the general public is made up of reasonable people. Those are the reasonable people that you must have on your side when attempting to stop open revolt like this. You can't just kill everyone, would a Reasonable person find this act by the government against its own citizens as reasonable? However, being captured with reasonable force, Tried and judged in a court of law, and of course civilians not getting caught in the crossfire would be the better option in the people's minds. As with Waco or the MOVE fire, the FBI has a very negative light because of mistakes. Making them now in TYOOL 2015 when Police brutality is a huge issue in the public eye they will have reactionaries crying for them if Women and Children get killed in the process.
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Jan 11, 2016 19:52
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Jizz Festival posted:And the Pacific Patriots and (apparently) locals who have started actually bringing them supplies. You probably got the Pacific Patriots and 3%ers mixed up. Same leader, same group. 3% Idaho are a subsidiary but in both cases it's Brandon Curtiss's posse.
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Jan 11, 2016 19:53
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Discendo Vox posted:Same leader, same group. 3% Idaho are a subsidiary but in both cases it's Brandon Curtiss's posse. Oh well then I mixed them up, I guess. I thought at the beginning the 3% guys were against occupying the building and left after the protest. I guess they changed their minds. edit: http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/2016/01/05/burns-occupation-wildlife-refuge-ranchers/78307890/ Yeah they were at the protest and opposed the occupation. I guess them coming to the compound was just a bad attempt at keeping the peace.
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Jan 11, 2016 20:02
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Crain posted:Or they could actually set up a roadblock? But, as it looks so far, that is a fantasy, right? They haven't and there's no sign of them doing such, right? quote:All at once you seem to: Here we go, more "I'll read what I want, gently caress you. Haha I'm awesome" quote:Look, I know you're probably super jaded from reading the freeper thread all the time where everyone is bluster and nothing to worry about. But these guys aren't the same as simple freeper users by simple virtue of having actually gone out and done something. Of course not, they're the next step above. the ones that go out and act tough quote:My point of view on this right now is that some sort of presence needs to be shown now in order to make the public image of this kind of action not seem so "safe". The initial right wing political denouncement of this movement, in my opinion, is because most right wingers expected a harsh put down or for the Bundys to quickly get shut down, and no one wanted to be tied to that. But that didn't happen. Oh yes, because every situation is the same and they'll always be treated the same and you know all the legalities in the files on these clowns. Again you're relying on those telepathic fbi powers. These guys aren't some deep woods, moonshine runnin', Hatfield and McCoy asshats, they're loving ranchers and modern living people playing soldier whose plans are folding and turning into what they don't want.
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Jan 11, 2016 20:03
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LeoMarr posted:No. but the general public is made up of reasonable people. Those are the reasonable people that you must have on your side when attempting to stop open revolt like this. You can't just kill everyone, would a Reasonable person find this act by the government against its own citizens as reasonable? However, being captured with reasonable force, Tried and judged in a court of law, and of course civilians not getting caught in the crossfire would be the better option in the people's minds. As with Waco or the MOVE fire, the FBI has a very negative light because of mistakes. Making them now in TYOOL 2015 when Police brutality is a huge issue in the public eye they will have reactionaries crying for them if Women and Children get killed in the process. And I reiterate that I don't think you're actually reading the thread any more, because literally no one is seriously advocating to kill them all, and I've stated a few times now I want this to end with no one killed, and preferably no one hurt. And for that matter, I just went into detail about why it's bad not to restrict their movements because now they are in town and a shootout with civilians in the way is much more likely since they can just go there whenever they feel like. Also, they didn't have women and children with them to start with, but now they do because, again, there's literally no impediment to their activities right now. Which is what I and a number of people have been repeatedly advocating while you and a few posters keep going 'why do you want to kill them all? Gosh!' Doing nothing, or the appearance of doing nothing, is ridiculous and is making this situation worse. They might have some secret FBI plan up their sleeve, I hope they do, but in the meantime you've got things like the Sheriff and his family being stalked and harassed by gun toting loonies for not going along with their gun toting looniness. This is the same sheriff they've threatened to hang from a lamp post, as a reminder.
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Jan 11, 2016 20:05
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I think it's entirely reasonable to believe
I'm not saying they aren't loving it up completely, I just don't think we have a way to know that until after the fact.
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Jan 11, 2016 20:21
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kartikeya posted:And I reiterate that I don't think you're actually reading the thread any more, because literally no one is seriously advocating to kill them all, and I've stated a few times now I want this to end with no one killed, and preferably no one hurt. And for that matter, I just went into detail about why it's bad not to restrict their movements because now they are in town and a shootout with civilians in the way is much more likely since they can just go there whenever they feel like. Also, they didn't have women and children with them to start with, but now they do because, again, there's literally no impediment to their activities right now. Which is what I and a number of people have been repeatedly advocating while you and a few posters keep going 'why do you want to kill them all? Gosh!' Their movement is already restricted. The FBI is very obviously inside of the town. The ringleaders won't be allowed to leave the county. And they don't need roadblocks to deny them that ability. Letting them into town allows the FBI a wider enclave to blend in with and actively surveil. A 12 boy bandit squad is not that easy to infiltrate, especially if they are entrenched already. Especially if poo poo really starts going down and the town starts either actively leaving or fighting the Militia occupation. This gives them a "We're saving the Women and Children" clause so they can just storm the place and cull the Bundy Family and Friends. However, allowing the idea of freedom lets them be looser. If there's real militia threats that are in play instead of just occupying the bird catchers club house then that will come from knowledge gained inside of the town where most of the other militiamen are quartered.
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Jan 11, 2016 20:29
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SocketWrench posted:Yeah, they probably should have blocked the place off SocketWrench posted:Said this already too (That there should be a road block) SocketWrench posted:It's not that I don't want to prevent them, but since there is no way outside of your sooper dooper FBI control powers to somehow telepathically force the feds to stop them, let them get there and infight all they want, it'll only fragment this bullshit further. SocketWrench posted:let them get there and infight all they want, it'll only fragment this bullshit further. I get that most of what you're posting is "this is a non-issue, non-story, these guys are nothing to worry about" and that's fine. But I don't agree with the complete lack of visible action from Law Enforcement, and it's not looking like the prediction of "they'll just get bored in two weeks and leave" is going to come true. I'm also worrying more about what the next standoff like this is going to be, if some other group sees this and decides it's a good idea to actually try and take on a government office when it's not closed for the holidays.
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Jan 11, 2016 20:30
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Crain posted:
who said two weeks?
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Jan 11, 2016 20:31
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You know, with all the "the truth is somewhere in the middle" articles like this one, I'm almost becoming sympathetic. If this were purely a sit-in protest to get attention for their cause, they probably could have gotten some support from people who until now knew nothing about the situation. But then they start ranting about Agenda 21 and declaring that they're giving land back to the people and they've lost us.
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Jan 11, 2016 20:32
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As a Millennial I posted:You know, with all the "the truth is somewhere in the middle" articles like this one, I'm almost becoming sympathetic. If this were purely a sit-in protest to get attention for their cause, they probably could have gotten some support from people who until now knew nothing about the situation. But then they start ranting about Agenda 21 and declaring that they're giving land back to the people and they've lost us. yeah there really isn't much difference between these dudes and your typical OWS protesters except, being ridiculous paranoid backwoodsmen steeped in toxic masculinity, they can't possibly frame their protest without surrounding themselves in a safety blanket of guns and violent rhetoric. the funny part is that so many people take these guys 100% at face value and also buy into their revolutionary rhetoric where the more accurate perspective is pity towards a person who is so wound up in faux military culture that when they go protest something they carry a semi-auto instead of a sign like this is just how these dudes immediately present themselves as independent persons who are trying to broadcast their opinions. this is how they front as serious and respectable people. it's more comical than it is threatening
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Jan 11, 2016 20:40
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Though unsurprising, the Republican attempt to legitimize the militia's bullshit is really disheartening.
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Jan 11, 2016 20:42
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theflyingorc posted:who said two weeks? That's roughly how long the Cliven Bundy standoff lasted. From early April to about the 14th when the BLM called off the cattle gathering. Others stayed longer as "protection" though because Bundy was saying he was going to get assassinated.
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Jan 11, 2016 20:42
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Talmonis posted:Though unsurprising, the Republican attempt to legitimize the militia's bullshit is really disheartening. huh? what are you referring to? Crain posted:That's roughly how long the Cliven Bundy standoff lasted. From early April to about the 14th when the BLM called off the cattle gathering. Others stayed longer as "protection" though because Bundy was saying he was going to get assassinated. what does that have to do with the timeframe for this thing? that one was how long it took the BLM to give up, no?
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Jan 11, 2016 20:48
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theflyingorc posted:huh? what are you referring to? I just chose it because the Bundy's are still involved  Is choosing a timeframe similar to the last time this family pulled something like this, instead of just going XYZ, that big a deal for you? https://twitter.com/killendave/status/686624800408641536 quote:Militants will begin taking down fence today, Finicum says at 11am presser #Oregonstandoff I assume this means the fence surrounding the refuge. So more destruction of federal property. Crain fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Jan 11, 2016 |
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Jan 11, 2016 21:00
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QUOTE not EDIT
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Jan 11, 2016 21:08
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Crain posted:I just chose it because the Bundy's are still involved Well, personally, the two week mark is when I would expect the cracks to START showing, not the point where they'd all be gone. I went to summer camp for two weeks as a kid
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Jan 11, 2016 21:09
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theflyingorc posted:Well, personally, the two week mark is when I would expect the cracks to START showing, not the point where they'd all be gone. I went to summer camp for two weeks as a kid Difference is you probably managed to pack correctly. So yeah, there is another Press Briefing today. Ammon Bundy did say they are removing a fence between a local rancher and the refuge land. No one has reported if this was requested or is being done on their own part. https://twitter.com/AnnaKingN3/status/686638860034375681 https://twitter.com/SimoneReports/status/686643215164833793 Also there seems to be a lot of wilderness and conservation groups present who are also speaking at the presser saying that the Bundys should leave. https://twitter.com/WandaKTVZ/status/686628744249782272 https://twitter.com/NMWildlife/status/686630247396184067 Ammon Bundy supposedly said that they DID in fact go through federal records at the refuge. No word if that's physical files or if they somehow broke into a computer (given what that one poster said about systems security, it's probably just physical files) https://twitter.com/WandaKTVZ/status/686627214511583232 Also still looks like quite a media circus. https://twitter.com/killendave/status/686642998646419456
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Jan 11, 2016 21:20
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The militants are driving federal vehicles all the time now. They've painted over or otherwise obscured government logos on the vehicles.
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Jan 11, 2016 21:28
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Apparently the Pacific Patriots Network hasn't actually left. This reporter is saying 15-30 still around Burns: https://twitter.com/amandapeacher/status/686644782987268097
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Jan 11, 2016 21:33
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theflyingorc posted:Well, personally, the two week mark is when I would expect the cracks to START showing, not the point where they'd all be gone. I went to summer camp for two weeks as a kid These guys are having the time of their lives - they get to pose in tacticool on national TV and people are bringing them doughnuts. They're not going anywhere.
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Jan 11, 2016 21:39
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Crain posted:Apparently the Pacific Patriots Network hasn't actually left. This reporter is saying 15-30 still around Burns: The Bundy duders don't have the authority to tell any other group to leave.
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Jan 11, 2016 21:45
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many johnnys posted:The Bundy duders don't have the authority to tell any other group to leave. Yeah, but other posters made it sound like they respected their wishes and left. I guess they just left the refuge but stayed in town. Hopefully they're not waiting around in case something "goes down" so they can try and run to the rescue.
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Jan 11, 2016 21:50
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theflyingorc posted:who said two weeks? after 14 days they could be visited by a forest officer and fined up to $275. they wouldn't want that to happen, so I'm almost certain they will leave by then
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Jan 11, 2016 21:52
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Talmonis posted:Though unsurprising, the Republican attempt to legitimize the militia's bullshit is really disheartening. I don't see how this is any different from their path over the past 6 years.
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Jan 11, 2016 21:53
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Turns out one of the conspiracy theories going around was that one of the local sheriffs was also part of BLM. The Sheriff's office issued a public correction on the matter. https://twitter.com/HarneyCoSheriff/status/686646793346527232
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Jan 11, 2016 21:54
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Discendo Vox posted:The militants are driving federal vehicles all the time now. They've painted over or otherwise obscured government logos on the vehicles. And taking down fences. gently caress, let's stop pretending. These fuckers got exactly what they wanted: Legitimacy.
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Jan 11, 2016 21:54
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Anosmoman posted:These guys are having the time of their lives - they get to pose in tacticool on national TV and people are bringing them doughnuts. They're not going anywhere. Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the news coverage is on a downward slope. As long as nothing keeps happening, cameras aren't going to stay pointed at them.
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Jan 11, 2016 21:54
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LeoMarr posted:Their movement is already restricted. The FBI is very obviously inside of the town. The ringleaders won't be allowed to leave the county. And they don't need roadblocks to deny them that ability. Letting them into town allows the FBI a wider enclave to blend in with and actively surveil. A 12 boy bandit squad is not that easy to infiltrate, especially if they are entrenched already. Especially if poo poo really starts going down and the town starts either actively leaving or fighting the Militia occupation. This gives them a "We're saving the Women and Children" clause so they can just storm the place and cull the Bundy Family and Friends. However, allowing the idea of freedom lets them be looser. If there's real militia threats that are in play instead of just occupying the bird catchers club house then that will come from knowledge gained inside of the town where most of the other militiamen are quartered. ??? Their movement is restricted because the FBI is there not actually restricting it? I mean, a few of the original militants have left. It doesn't seem as though anything has happened to them, or that they were prevented from leaving. Maybe something will happen in the future, but that's not really what I call 'restricted movement'. That's not what restricted means. You might be going for 'monitored', which is very possible and likely. Also I...really don't think it's a good idea to wait until people start fleeing town or shooting at these guys to finally do something visible. That, in fact, seems like a bad idea. In fact it seems like one of the worst possible outcomes. It's like some people think that they're not actually doing anything worth interfering with until there is literal blood in the streets. Popular Thug Drink posted:yeah there really isn't much difference between these dudes and your typical OWS protesters except, being ridiculous paranoid backwoodsmen steeped in toxic masculinity, they can't possibly frame their protest without surrounding themselves in a safety blanket of guns and violent rhetoric. the funny part is that so many people take these guys 100% at face value and also buy into their revolutionary rhetoric where the more accurate perspective is pity towards a person who is so wound up in faux military culture that when they go protest something they carry a semi-auto instead of a sign And you're pretty much just trolling now, right? Yes, it's just like an OWS protest except for that whole threatening people with guns and hanging and terrorizing a town and declaring you now own federal land and stealing BLM vehicles, and harassing the sheriff and his family, and nearly provoking a shootout with the FBI and local law enforcement by strolling up to their headquarters in a 'show of force', and preventing people from going back to work, and... Yes, apart from all of that, it is EXACTLY like an OWS protest. Good job, sir. More seriously, this is all really easy for you to say when you're not living in Burns having to deal with these fuckwits while, to all appearances, the people you pay to protect you are sitting on their thumbs because they don't want to make the crazy gun people upset.
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Jan 11, 2016 21:56
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theflyingorc posted:Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the news coverage is on a downward slope. As long as nothing keeps happening, cameras aren't going to stay pointed at them. and? you think they give a poo poo about the "lamestream media"? they'll keep getting attention from where they want attention, the ultra-right wing sphere.
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Jan 11, 2016 21:56
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Crain posted:That's too strong language: Loitering also has that hanging around for sex on the down low implication.
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Jan 11, 2016 21:56
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theflyingorc posted:Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the news coverage is on a downward slope. As long as nothing keeps happening, cameras aren't going to stay pointed at them. Well that's not what seems to be the case. Things are happening:  
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