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Who What Now posted:I see no good reason to be mealy-mouthed about this and pretend that this isnt being done by the occupiers. Because the picture being shown of one of these patrols was a member of the Patriot Network, who I understand are not the same people as Bundy and Co? I'm not taking a wild stab, the reports seemed to indicate that the actions outside the Reserve are different people with unclear levels of ties to the Bundys themselves.
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Jan 12, 2016 20:47
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Crain posted:beneficially utilize I love these guys When I first saw the photo of the colonial LARPer I thought it was an unrelated photo attached as a joke. Nope, that guy's actually there.
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Jan 12, 2016 20:49
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Well, you know, they clean mountains of rat poo poo off it so clearly that means its theres based on some kind of ancient grade school "finders keepers" rules, right? Manifest destiny of pontoons and cleaning supplies and all that. I just came in here to see if these guys were still up to this since I hadn't seen anything on it on the news in awhile. Apparently they've moved on to looting and building their new civilization? Are these really just people who wanted to get away from their wives and kids? Are there a bunch of wives somewhere cursing that their husbands never seemed to find the time to clean up THEIR garage? Like, I know this is actually a bad thing but they're just so laughable its hard to take it seriously.
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Jan 12, 2016 20:49
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Crain posted:^^His uplink is poo poo and drops all the time.^^
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Jan 12, 2016 20:49
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All Ammon's bunch did was blast out messages telling people to "bring their arms" and come defend the Hammonds. I can't imagine how it came to pass that a bunch of dumb hicks with guns decided to come and inject themselves into things. Sounds totally unrelated. In related news, Bart Simpson is just going to walk forward and swing his arms up and down, and if Lisa happens to get in the way that's her own fault.
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Jan 12, 2016 20:52
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Crain posted:^^His uplink is poo poo and drops all the time.^^ You forgot the Capital Letters.
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Jan 12, 2016 20:54
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Crain posted:Holy poo poo. Watch this video: He doesn't care about evidence because he'll shoot himself in the head if they try to arrest him, according to his comments on the video 
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Jan 12, 2016 20:58
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Kazak_Hstan posted:All Ammon's bunch did was blast out messages telling people to "bring their arms" and come defend the Hammonds. I can't imagine how it came to pass that a bunch of dumb hicks with guns decided to come and inject themselves into things. Sounds totally unrelated. It's obvious that they wouldn't be there if it weren't for the Bundys. I was just speculating that it might not be possible (at this point) for law enforcement to take legal action against the patrols/grocery store people, because they may have not technically have committed a crime yet. Whether or not they are the same people as those actually occupying the building is part of determining whether those specific people have violated any laws.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:00
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As a Millennial I posted:He doesn't care about evidence because he'll shoot himself in the head if they try to arrest him, according to his comments on the video Hmmm. Methinks he may have oversold it:  Probably just a troll account.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:00
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You guys might know me from some of the video games I play https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tJEmaYn9anY
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Jan 12, 2016 21:06
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theflyingorc posted:"They" are? The reports I've seen seem to indicate that separate, supportive groups with poorly defined ties to the occupation are doing these things. The harassment of the sheriff and his family began almost immediately after the occupation started, when it was just that one group of people in the area. I've said this about three times now. The original group also threatened to hang him from a post if he didn't do their nutty SovCit things. I've lost track of how many times I've repeated that. I'm curious to know just what about guys running around heavily armed who have repeatedly, publicly threatened peoples' lives, who performed a 'show of force' in front of both the local PD and the FBI command station that nearly started a shootout, who have no qualms talking about how 'certain people' are all that's wrong with America, and who have accessed the personal information of local government employees and used that information, it seems, to go find them while they were shopping in order to yell at them about their jobs (which they are currently preventing them from doing, at least those that work at the refuge) makes you think these guys aren't potentially dangerous to the point where pre-emptive action should be taken to protect people in their own town? What about them, specifically, makes them not dangerous in spite of all the poo poo they're doing? I mean, if someone gets shot, are the authorities going to just be like 'oops our bad'?
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Jan 12, 2016 21:07
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Kazak_Hstan posted:You guys might know me from some of the video games I play Jesus, you lose one crate of supplies for the Kurds to ISIS, and suddenly you're their primary financier.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:15
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theflyingorc posted:It's obvious that they wouldn't be there if it weren't for the Bundys. That's a fair point. But t probably wouldn't be that difficult to find some charges on some of them, arrest them, and flip them. Once you get one of them to start saying 'well me and the guys agreed the government is wrong so we got our guns and came here to stop them from _____' which there is a 99.9% chance they did, you have a conspiracy case rolling. As mentioned earlier in the thread they might be gun shy because of the Huttaree case falling apart. For my money the incoming militias are chargeable. Beyond the theories of liability originating entirely inside incoming militia groups, core Bundy group is 100% guilty of conspiracy to commit numerous felonies. As soon as there is any communication between them and outside groups, leading to outside groups coming to help, those groups are now on board for the whole conspiracy. How likely is it the Bundys have kept quiet and not been in intense communication with pretty much every sympathizer group out there? Hey I've got this drug ring it's cool and good want to be a part of it? Idk, maybe I'll be a lookout or w/e. Congrats you're now a full-fledged member of the entire conspiracy. Hey I've got this armed insurrection here it's cool and good want to come help protect ARE RIGHTS? Idk, maybe I'll just help out by patrolling the local community with my gun. Congrats you're now a full-fledged member of the entire conspiracy. It's less complicated when you do what the DoJ ultimately did to the Hammonds: apply the law to them the same as they would anyone else., or more specifically, to any other group of organized violent criminals.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:16
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kartikeya posted:The harassment of the sheriff and his family began almost immediately after the occupation started, when it was just that one group of people in the area. I've said this about three times now. The original group also threatened to hang him from a post if he didn't do their nutty SovCit things. I've lost track of how many times I've repeated that. kartikeya posted:I'm curious to know just what about guys running around heavily armed who have repeatedly, publicly threatened peoples' lives, who performed a 'show of force' in front of both the local PD and the FBI command station that nearly started a shootout, who have no qualms talking about how 'certain people' are all that's wrong with America, and who have accessed the personal information of local government employees and used that information, it seems, to go find them while they were shopping in order to yell at them about their jobs (which they are currently preventing them from doing, at least those that work at the refuge) makes you think these guys aren't potentially dangerous to the point where pre-emptive action should be taken to protect people in their own town? What about them, specifically, makes them not dangerous in spite of all the poo poo they're doing?
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Jan 12, 2016 21:17
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Abner Cadaver II posted:Watch these guys start taking potshots at endangered birds when migration begins and loving nothing happen in response. I don't know how much action these folks will actually take but some "birders" are claiming they are coming to document the activities of the militants. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/1/5/1466254/-Warning-from-the-Birding-Community-to-the-Terrorists-in-Oregon-We-re-Watching-You quote:And for those of us who are also lawyers (I for example just happen to have a law degree of U of Oregon), whether the Feds prosecute you or not (and we will do all in our power to ensure they do), we will put every civil suit against you and God knows you have given us plenty to work with, so you will know once and for all that your odious actions have real consequences.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:17
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Crain posted:Hmmm. Methinks he may have oversold it: That or some kid who really wants to be there. And is trying to sell some book??
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Jan 12, 2016 21:20
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Birders are loving weird intense people I buy it. God I hate when they come up to me at work and ask me about some loving bird. I never know what bird it is and they always act super wronged, like I should know dozens of molt patterns for gulls. (I really should know them I just don't get real jazzed about birds.)
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Jan 12, 2016 21:23
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According to some tweets in the live feed (from people who seem to be there? Nothing on the known reporters feeds yet) they are clearing the garage because they are "expecting a large shipment" of something today/tonight.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:23
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Kazak_Hstan posted:That's a fair point. But t probably wouldn't be that difficult to find some charges on some of them, arrest them, and flip them. Once you get one of them to start saying 'well me and the guys agreed the government is wrong so we got our guns and came here to stop them from _____' which there is a 99.9% chance they did, you have a conspiracy case rolling. As mentioned earlier in the thread they might be gun shy because of the Huttaree case falling apart. For my money the incoming militias are chargeable. Beyond the theories of liability originating entirely inside incoming militia groups, core Bundy group is 100% guilty of conspiracy to commit numerous felonies. As soon as there is any communication between them and outside groups, leading to outside groups coming to help, those groups are now on board for the whole conspiracy. How likely is it the Bundys have kept quiet and not been in intense communication with pretty much every sympathizer group out there? Right, but the way they've been behaving I'm not sure there's that much cooperation. There's been at least one group that showed up at the actual building and the Bundys got angry at them and wanted them to leave. Some of the people there are probably in coordination, some are very likely just opportunists. At the risk of making a bad metaphor, during the Ferguson protests*, some people used what was supposed to be a peaceful protests to loot stores and set fires. These people were not part of the movement and their actions were unrelated to the BLM movement. Exactly how they were linked is an important component of whether the protesters should have any responsibility for their actions - and simply having spoken to the protest leaders or being present at the actual protest wouldn't be enough to make the protesters culpable (which they weren't). *I recognize the huge difference in those protests and this one - that protest was legitimate, unarmed, and took place in public spaces. I don't make the comparison to say that the Bundys are justified in their actions, either. They have done things that should result in legal consequences.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:26
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FB Chatlog I know but the Oregon III%ers Supply Train page is used for coordinating supply runs. It's a closed page but clicking on join is apparently their only form of security. I keep waiting for them to discuss actually illegal activity but it's pretty tame.quote:Tana Condit I've always enjoyed logistics and following their supply train runs is pretty interesting.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:32
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Agreed. I would wager there's a lot of coordination. Bundy turning the "Idaho three percenters" back seemed more like optics to me than genuine opposition to armed outsiders getting involved. Just to be clear, I agree with you that someone who shows up on their own and has no direct contact with the Bundys is not on the hook for their actions. But bigger conspiracies are made out of less than what we've seen here on a pretty routine basis. This whole exercise feels like the chapellle sketch where they are trying to seat a jury for R. Kelly. Well, I guess if they all got together, and wrote out a notarized statement, on video, where they went element by element through the statute book and admitted to crimes, ok then we'd have a case.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:33
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theflyingorc posted:The Bundys feeling they're above the law is not worth putting federal lives at significant risk. Given that the townsfolk's lives may well be at risk here, I'd say yeah, it actually arguably is. Either way puts someone's life in danger, but for one of them it's their job to do that while the other are just people whose town has been taken over by psychotic rednecks. Edit: I'm a bit late here, but still, this was a bad and dumb argument. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Jan 12, 2016 |
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Jan 12, 2016 21:33
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Kazak_Hstan posted:I would wager there's a lot of coordination. Bundy turning the "Idaho three percenters" back seemed more like optics to me than genuine opposition to armed outsiders getting involved. It's been said, but the bundy guys are armed outsiders
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Jan 12, 2016 21:34
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Crain posted:According to some tweets in the live feed (from people who seem to be there? Nothing on the known reporters feeds yet) they are clearing the garage because they are "expecting a large shipment" of something today/tonight. God I hope the police grow some balls and _at least_ stop this from arriving. Pull over 1 truck and do not-insignificant harm to their cause. come on now...
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Jan 12, 2016 21:35
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Indeed. Just trying to distinguish between the OGs and the new comers for purposes of discussing who is criminally liable for what.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:35
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Crain posted:According to some tweets in the live feed (from people who seem to be there? Nothing on the known reporters feeds yet) they are clearing the garage because they are "expecting a large shipment" of something today/tonight. Perhaps they think they'll be getting a couple of these? http://www.costco.com/31,500-Total-Servings-4-Person-1-Year-Food-Storage.product.11763436.html
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Jan 12, 2016 21:37
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theflyingorc posted:I do not dispute this, and it can be added to the list of crimes I would like the Bundys to eventually be charged for? I don't know how many ways I can restate that I'm talking only about the "patrols" and the grocery store harassers. Okay, but you seem to be trying a little too hard to justify that there's just no way they're related aside from being there because of the initial event. I don't want this to turn to violence. I really don't want another Waco. But you know what? If it comes down to the ugly choice of 'possible Waco' or 'terrorized civilians caught in crossfire/armed locals have a shootout with the militias because no one's helping them or their families' you know what? I'm gonna pick Waco. Obviously this isn't up to you or me, but seriously, if people are going to get hurt, then let it be the people who either started/continued this mess or the people who get paid, trained, and equipped to take that risk so that other people don't have to. And then throw the loving book at whoever made the call not to block them off early so that they could bring their own families in. The reality is that rightwing militia nutjobs are going to see them as martyrs if you do literally anything to punish them. Hell, they already see them as martyrs for 'sacrificing' time with their families to go do this nonsense. And they aren't going to suddenly not notice if you wait six months to arrest them either. Meanwhile, they're actively getting bolder and more reckless because not a drat thing has been done except for the sheriff politely asking them to go home and the community holding meetings in which they express how scared they are. They are absolutely not going to stop until someone makes them, because they have literally no reason to and no one standing in their way, and the longer law enforcement lets them do this the worse it's going to be when they finally have to put their foot down.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:37
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Kazak_Hstan posted:I would wager there's a lot of coordination. Bundy turning the "Idaho three percenters" back seemed more like optics to me than genuine opposition to armed outsiders getting involved. Could just be that those guys wanted to take over and it's too important to Bundy that this is his baby. Could be that the new guys weren't ideologically pure to whatever weird sovereign citizen belief set the occupiers are operating under. It's hard to be sure of the motivations of big babies with a poor grasp on logic.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:37
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I think obviously there's some point in which doing something becomes the necessary choice and the better alternative to letting these guys get away with it, but considering I find myself routinely criticizing police for not showing more caution and concern about preserving live I can't really fault the authorities for doing so here. There's a theoretical point where you have to do something but I don't know when and where that is.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:46
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I think the Idaho group initially criticized the Bundys for doing this by surprise (I.e., cutting them out of the spotlight), and have since come around now that they realize there is attention to be had. I might be mixing up groups though. Seems like pretty standard jealousy / ego stuff.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:47
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Ninkobei posted:God I hope the police grow some balls and _at least_ stop this from arriving. Pull over 1 truck and do not-insignificant harm to their cause. come on now... Threatening the Sheriff's parents didn't make him think to escalate his tactics above "Polite discourse and behind the back big talk" why do you think he'd suddenly think to do that now? He'll watch the shipment of supplies be delivered, shake the driver's hands on their way out and, the next day, tell the auditorium full of residence that he is TOTALLY gonna go get his bo staff next! Send a message loud and clear! to thunderous applause. I can't wait until next week when the Sheriff orders all government employees to line up single file "in front of the big ditch behind the main building" because the protestors asked them to do so nicely.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:47
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What's the thinking behind leaving their power and comms on this long? I assume you can't easily jam their cells, but wtf. I mean what's the upside to letting them do all these RWM radio interviews and poo poo? And why does the NYT run stories referring to men with guns making demands of the govt and still call them protestors? Is there some style rule that gets invoked if the men with guns only concern troll about how they really really hope no one makes them shoot people and start the revolution.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:47
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theflyingorc posted:Could just be that those guys wanted to take over and it's too important to Bundy that this is his baby. I think you nailed it right here. Ammon Bundy pays lip service to MERICA PATRIOTISM but really he's in it for Ammon Bundy.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:48
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If these guys are allowed to receive a large shipment of anything, then I say just gently caress it and let them have the land, and all federal lands in the state of Oregon. There's no danger in preventing a truck or van filled with supplies or whatever from reaching the refuge grounds, so if they are going to let even that happen then it is because they have little interest in stopping these guys from doing anything aside from starting a fire or trying to kill some one.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:49
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Well how do you stop someone from bringing stuff to them? You can't stop them 20 miles out and force them to stop driving on the road, can you? Wouldn't you have to sent up a check point at the property and wouldn't that risk armed conflict with the militia? I'm not a cop, lawyer, or anything so I don't really know the answers to these questions or if its way easier than I think but my first thought is that the only way to keep people from going there is to get way more aggressive than they've been and risk escalating this. The way I figured with this thing is that the "wait them out" game is less about "waiting them to starve" than "wait for them to realize that the federal government isn't turning over land to these assholes so they're going to have to come up with a Plan B". Obviously everyone hoped that would happen in a couple of days and supply runs prolong it but it still kind of leaves these guys in a position where unless they want to spend the rest of their lives living there they're going to either have to leave or raise the stakes and give the authorities a reason to Waco them. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Jan 12, 2016 |
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Jan 12, 2016 21:56
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ToastyPotato posted:If these guys are allowed to receive a large shipment of anything, then I say just gently caress it and let them have the land, and all federal lands in the state of Oregon. There's no danger in preventing a truck or van filled with supplies or whatever from reaching the refuge grounds, so if they are going to let even that happen then it is because they have little interest in stopping these guys from doing anything aside from starting a fire or trying to kill some one. No blockade means they can come and go as they please. We initially gave them poo poo for not being prepared but you obviously don't need to prepare anything if you can just go get pizza and beer when you feel like it. Maybe the media will stop caring and they'll get bored and leave. I don't think either will happen. They either stay through the summer season to demonstrate what federal authority amounts to with ever increasing support from wingnuts or the feds remove them with force which gets more complicated every time another hick with a gun shows up to hang around Burns.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:59
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kartikeya posted:Okay, but you seem to be trying a little too hard to justify that there's just no way they're related aside from being there because of the initial event. quote:I don't want this to turn to violence. I really don't want another Waco. But you know what? If it comes down to the ugly choice of 'possible Waco' or 'terrorized civilians caught in crossfire/armed locals have a shootout with the militias because no one's helping them or their families' you know what? I'm gonna pick Waco. Obviously this isn't up to you or me, but seriously, if people are going to get hurt, then let it be the people who either started/continued this mess or the people who get paid, trained, and equipped to take that risk so that other people don't have to. And then throw the loving book at whoever made the call not to block them off early so that they could bring their own families in. quote:The reality is that rightwing militia nutjobs are going to see them as martyrs if you do literally anything to punish them. Hell, they already see them as martyrs for 'sacrificing' time with their families to go do this nonsense. And they aren't going to suddenly not notice if you wait six months to arrest them either. Meanwhile, they're actively getting bolder and more reckless because not a drat thing has been done except for the sheriff politely asking them to go home and the community holding meetings in which they express how scared they are. They are absolutely not going to stop until someone makes them, because they have literally no reason to and no one standing in their way, and the longer law enforcement lets them do this the worse it's going to be when they finally have to put their foot down.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:01
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STAC Goat posted:Well how do you stop someone from bringing stuff to them? You can't stop them 20 miles out and force them to stop driving on the road, can you? Wouldn't you have to sent up a check point at the property and wouldn't that risk armed conflict with the militia? I'm not a cop, lawyer, or anything so I don't really know the answers to these questions or if its way easier than I think but my first thought is that the only way to keep people from going there is to get way more aggressive than they've been and risk escalating this. How is letting them do whatever the gently caress they want with the land not turning it over to them? They're getting exactly what they want right now, so why do they need a Plan B?
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Jan 12, 2016 22:03
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STAC Goat posted:Well how do you stop someone from bringing stuff to them? You can't stop them 20 miles out and force them to stop driving on the road, can you? Wouldn't you have to sent up a check point at the property and wouldn't that risk armed conflict with the militia? I'm not a cop, lawyer, or anything so I don't really know the answers to these questions or if its way easier than I think but my first thought is that the only way to keep people from going there is to get way more aggressive than they've been and risk escalating this. Block the road. If the people will supplies try to ram there way through police/fed vehicles blocking the way then you loving stop them one way or another. If they want to hike a dozen miles each way to bring in supplies (or use ATVs or whatever) then they can go ahead and try that route but yeah, you put up a blockade on the road and don't let them drive in with a bunch of poo poo.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:04
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Intel&Sebastian posted:What's the thinking behind leaving their power and comms on this long? I assume you can't easily jam their cells, but wtf. According to reports, they can't cut the power the usual way without cutting it to a number of surrounding farms/ranches. The only other way to do is cut the lines on site, and if I recall correctly the quote for that was 'nobody wants to do it'. Because that's daaaangerous. Except remember these guys aren't dangerous, really. Except if you try to stop them constantly breaking the law and acting like they've founded their new country of Bundystan, then they'll throw a Waco tantrum. We can't stop the non-dangerous criminals with guns from doing criminal things, because then they'll become super dangerous. You know, this would actually work really well in other areas of law enforcement. Like bank robberies. If police just didn't try to stop bank robbers from robbing banks, the bank robbers wouldn't be violent or take hostages. If you don't pull over reckless drivers you don't run the risk of one of them trying to shoot or run you over. And I'm sure as long as no one actually does anything the patrolling crazies with guns don't like (may include 'talk badly about them' or 'have the wrong politics' or 'skin too dark' or 'not religious enough'), they're perfectly and completely safe, so no reason for police to get involved when an armed gang takes over town. It's brilliant. Look, I'm not making light of the risks law enforcement officials face, especially in any conflict with crazy people with guns, but that is, in fact, their job. It is particularly their job when their inaction is putting the people they're sworn to protect in increasingly ludicrous jeopardy. If they don't want that responsibility, then they need to not, you know, be cops. Or FBI agents.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:05
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