Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

The Gunslinger: Jul 24, 2004; Do not forget the face of your father.; Fun Shoe

etalian posted:

Most people in the bubble don't do this basic rent vs buy calculation. Home ownership has the lots of extra costs such as condo fees or property maintenance.

Hah if only. Most people don't even include the interest they're paying when assessing these things, let alone pesky things like maintenance and property taxes. I have clients who are up to their loving necks in debt and think they're safe because EQUITY! despite not even understanding how to properly calculate it.

The sheer amount of boomers I see counting on their homes to bail them out in retirement is staggering. Most have little to no savings left and are leveraged to the hilt with their property back stopping the entire house of cards.

What kills me is the attitude many of them have. I was asking a client last week about what his plans were for retirement, trying to see what he wanted to do with fat auto pension and so on. (I work in tax related stuff) His response: "I dont want to leave the kids anything, they should have to work for it" which is code for lets plan on me burning all of money long before I'm dead. Already has boats, trailers, etc. I had to put real effort into keeping myself from laughing. Guy without a high school education that made 6 figures due to his union nearly bankrupting his company, inherited significant money because his parents generation actually invested and lived within their means talking about his kids being entitled. I wish I could say that sort of guy is the minority but our practice is a decent cross section of this area and sadly its almost becoming the norm.

Cheap debt and zero introspection are what's driving this bubble. I don't want the entire economy to explode because it affects responsible people as well but god drat if a lot of fuckers don't deserve some sort of reckoning for this. That's without getting into what the government is doing in Ontario, poo poo is literally insane and people are just happily supporting it.

# ? Jan 13, 2016 17:44

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# ? May 13, 2024 09:45

Marijuana Nihilist: Aug 27, 2015; by Smythe

Those dumb boomer fucks cant die soon enough

# ? Jan 13, 2016 17:50

The Lord of Hats: Aug 22, 2010; Hello, yes! Is being very good day for posting, no?

THC posted:

lol gently caress

Ahahahaha you guys are going to be hosed worse than the US was, I am so sorry.

Femtosecond posted:

Yan's recent study kinda debunked this.

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Bank+mortgages+bags+cash+behind+mainland+Chinese+home+buys+study/11485324/story.html?__lsa=22a8-3d9d

Is there some way you can just force all of your politicians to sit in a theater and watch The Big Short on repeat until they take a hint? I mean, you're already boned but holy poo poo this wasn't that long ago.

# ? Jan 13, 2016 17:51

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

The Gunslinger posted:

"I dont want to leave the kids anything, they should have to work for it"

While this is not an inherently wrong attitude, if the person saying it inherited a decent from their own ancestors, they should be sent immediately to the guillotine to be scrapped for parts. You should want to pass on to the next generation (and/or charity) at least as much as you received, or you're just a complete loving rear end in a top hat.

# ? Jan 13, 2016 17:58

Guest2553: Aug 3, 2012

I think we'd have better luck trying to build a Deathnote and kill everyone involved.

# ? Jan 13, 2016 18:00

cowofwar: Jul 30, 2002; by Athanatos

Sounds like the banks are providing mortgages which recognize non-Canadian assets or income through their international arms. Basically the husband in China is effectively co-signing it and then money trickles in although the banks might actually be coordinating payment entirely internationally and just moving things around on paper. Not sure if this goes against any laws, maybe if CHMC is involved.

# ? Jan 13, 2016 18:02

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

The Lord of Hats posted:

Is there some way you can just force all of your politicians to sit in a theater and watch The Big Short on repeat until they take a hint? I mean, you're already boned but holy poo poo this wasn't that long ago.

I think that unlike the 2008 ~~a lot of~~ more people know poo poo is about to hit the fan here, it's just that no one sees a way to avoid it at this point without triggering a collapse anyway. Better to let the market collapse due to some external factor than potentially take the blame for it.

# ? Jan 13, 2016 18:03

Deep Dish Fuckfest: Sep 6, 2006; Advanced
Computer Touching; Toilet Rascal

Besides, this time is different!

And despite there ostensibly being more people knowing things are not going to end well, they are still vastly outnumbered by those who are making big money thanks to their uncommon financial acumen. That is, buying a house or condo.

# ? Jan 13, 2016 18:09

The Lord of Hats: Aug 22, 2010; Hello, yes! Is being very good day for posting, no?

Dreylad posted:

I think that unlike the 2008 ~~a lot of~~ more people know poo poo is about to hit the fan here, it's just that no one sees a way to avoid it at this point without triggering a collapse anyway. Better to let the market collapse due to some external factor than potentially take the blame for it.

Oh, I'm not saying that there's a way around the inevitable, just that you can hopefully get them to stop trying to prop it up by supporting measures like 0-down condos that are just going to make it that much worse when it finally does pop.

# ? Jan 13, 2016 18:10

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

Femtosecond posted:

Yan's recent study kinda debunked this.

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Bank+mortgages+bags+cash+behind+mainland+Chinese+home+buys+study/11485324/story.html?__lsa=22a8-3d9d

He admits later on that good data was hard to find for his study and his sample size was 131 properties.

# ? Jan 13, 2016 18:14

Femtosecond: Aug 2, 2003

quote:

U.S. Will Track Secret Buyers of Luxury Real Estate

Concerned about illicit money flowing into luxury real estate, the Treasury Department said Wednesday that it would begin identifying and tracking secret buyers of high-end properties.

The initiative will start in two of the nation�s major destinations for global wealth: Manhattan and Miami-Dade County. It will shine a light on the darkest corner of the real estate market: all-cash purchases made by shell companies that often shield purchasers� identities.

It is the first time the federal government has required real estate companies to disclose names behind all-cash transactions, and it is likely to send shudders through the real estate industry, which has benefited enormously in recent years from a building boom increasingly dependent on wealthy, secretive buyers.

The initiative is part of a broader federal effort to increase the focus on money laundering in real estate. Treasury and federal law enforcement officials said they were putting greater resources into investigating luxury real estate sales that involve shell companies like limited liability companies, often known as L.L.C.s; partnerships; and other entities.

Officials said the new government efforts were inspired in part by a series last year in The New York Times that examined the rising use of shell companies as foreign buyers increasingly sought safe havens for their money in the United States.

The use of shell companies in real estate is legal, and L.L.C.s have a range of uses unrelated to secrecy. But a top Treasury official, Jennifer Shasky Calvery, said her agency had seen instances in which multimillion-dollar homes were being used as safe deposit boxes for ill-gotten gains, in transactions made more opaque by the use of anonymous shell companies.

�We are concerned about the possibility that dirty money is being put into luxury real estate,� said Ms. Calvery, the director of the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, the Treasury unit running the initiative. �We think some of the bigger risk is around the least transparent transactions.�

The department will focus on sales that are both paid for all in cash and conducted using shell companies. The government is requiring title insurance companies, which are involved in virtually all sales, to discover the identities of buyers and submit the information to the Treasury. The government will put the information into a database for law enforcement.

...

[much more follows]

We can't do this up here because that'd be racist.

# ? Jan 13, 2016 18:46

EvilJoven: Mar 18, 2005; NOBODY,IN THE HISTORY OF EVER, HAS ASKED OR CARED WHAT CANADA THINKS. YOU ARE NOT A COUNTRY. YOUR MONEY HAS THE QUEEN OF ENGLAND ON IT. IF YOU DIG AROUND IN YOUR BACKYARD, NATIVE SKELETONS WOULD EXPLODE OUT OF YOUR LAWN LIKE THE END OF POLTERGEIST. CANADA IS SO POLITE, EH?; Fun Shoe

Marijuana Nihilist posted:

Those dumb boomer fucks cant die soon enough

You know what's hilarious. If they don't die before their nest eggs run out they're going to end up having what little we've managed to eke out for ourselves legislated into their hands.

# ? Jan 13, 2016 19:06

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

The Gunslinger posted:

zero introspection

Thank you. This is why I hate Canada so much.

# ? Jan 13, 2016 19:26

SpannerX: Apr 26, 2010; I had a beer with Stephen Harper once and now I like him.; Fun Shoe

EvilJoven posted:

You know what's hilarious. If they don't die before their nest eggs run out they're going to end up having what little we've managed to eke out for ourselves legislated into their hands.

Eat the ~~rich~~old.

# ? Jan 13, 2016 19:33

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

The Lord of Hats posted:

Is there some way you can just force all of your politicians to sit in a theater and watch The Big Short on repeat until they take a hint?

They would only remember the Margot Robbie scene

# ? Jan 13, 2016 19:34

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

Marijuana Nihilist posted:

Those dumb boomer fucks cant die soon enough

Millennials think zero-down mortgages are "fantastic!"

# ? Jan 13, 2016 19:39

MickeyFinn: May 8, 2007; Biggie Smalls and Junior Mafia some mark ass bitches

Femtosecond posted:

[quote]
She said the government is considering measures that improve housing-market options for first-time home buyers but also retain the value of homes for current owners.
[/quote

Yes, let us not think for a second that in order to increase affordability for some while maintaining equity for others means that the two groups will have to be participating in different housing markets either by location, amenities or some other differentiation.

# ? Jan 13, 2016 20:22

Risky Bisquick: Jan 18, 2008; PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.; Buglord

quote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/14/us/us-will-track-secret-buyers-of-luxury-real-estate.html?smid=tw-bna&_r=0

Concerned about illicit money flowing into luxury real estate, the Treasury Department said Wednesday that it would begin identifying and tracking secret buyers of high-end properties.

The initiative will start in two of the nation�s major destinations for global wealth: Manhattan and Miami-Dade County. It will shine a light on the darkest corner of the real estate market: all-cash purchases made by shell companies that often shield purchasers� identities.

It is the first time the federal government has required real estate companies to disclose names behind all-cash transactions, and it is likely to send shudders through the real estate industry, which has benefited enormously in recent years from a building boom increasingly dependent on wealthy, secretive buyers.

The initiative is part of a broader federal effort to increase the focus on money laundering in real estate. Treasury and federal law enforcement officials said they were putting greater resources into investigating luxury real estate sales that involve shell companies like limited liability companies, often known as L.L.C.s; partnerships; and other entities.

Officials said the new government efforts were inspired in part by a series last year in The New York Times that examined the rising use of shell companies as foreign buyers increasingly sought safe havens for their money in the United States.

The use of shell companies in real estate is legal, and L.L.C.s have a range of uses unrelated to secrecy. But a top Treasury official, Jennifer Shasky Calvery, said her agency had seen instances in which multimillion-dollar homes were being used as safe deposit boxes for ill-gotten gains, in transactions made more opaque by the use of anonymous shell companies.

�We are concerned about the possibility that dirty money is being put into luxury real estate,� said Ms. Calvery, the director of the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, the Treasury unit running the initiative. �We think some of the bigger risk is around the least transparent transactions.�

The department will focus on sales that are both paid for all in cash and conducted using shell companies. The government is requiring title insurance companies, which are involved in virtually all sales, to discover the identities of buyers and submit the information to the Treasury. The government will put the information into a database for law enforcement.

The Treasury�s program will affect billions of dollars in real estate transactions. In Manhattan, the initiative requires buyers in sales of more than $3 million to be reported; in Miami-Dade County, it requires reporting on sales of more than $1 million. In Manhattan, 1,045 residential sales cost more than $3 million in the second half of 2015, worth some $6.5 billion in aggregate, according to PropertyShark, a real estate data company.

In addition to starting in only two markets, the requirement runs from March through August. If Treasury officials find that many sales involved suspicious money, Ms. Calvery said, they would develop permanent reporting requirements across the country.

Real estate professionals, especially in the luxury market, often know little about buyers, and until now, they have not been legally required to. In its investigation, The Times found that nearly half of homes nationwide worth at least $5 million are purchased using shell companies. In Manhattan and Los Angeles, the figure is higher.

In New York, The Times examined a decade of ownership at an iconic condominium complex near Central Park, the Time Warner Center, and found a number of hidden owners who had been the subjects of government investigations. They included former Russian senators, a former governor from Colombia, a British financier, and a businessman tied to the prime minister of Malaysia, who is now under investigation. In Florida, The Times uncovered a condominium in Boca Raton tied to Mexico�s top housing official, who recently stepped down and is now a leading contender for the governor�s office in the southern state of Oaxaca.

Ms. Calvery said The Times investigation had been important in raising awareness about problems with shell companies and in convincing the Treasury that more scrutiny of high-end buyers is needed. �It�s easier to talk about it with people who aren�t specialists in our area when they read about it in the newspaper,� she said.

Indeed, last spring, New York City�s Finance Department began requiring shell companies buying real estate to report their members to the city. That rule, however, is less far-reaching than the Treasury action.
The Treasury is looking for the actual owners behind shell companies, often referred to as the beneficial owners. �We�re not looking for nominees,� Ms. Calvery said.

In its order, the Treasury defined beneficial owners as �each individual who, directly or indirectly, owns 25 percent or more of the equity interests� of the entity that bought the property. Once title companies identify those people, they are required to copy driver�s licenses or passports and also pass the individuals� names to the Treasury Department.

Stephen Hudak, a spokesman for the Treasury�s Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, said any title companies or purchasers who provided false information could face penalties.

Under the U.S.A. Patriot Act, the Treasury is already authorized to require real estate companies to scrutinize real estate buyers, but the department has in the past faced fierce lobbying against issuing such rules. The department already requires mortgage lenders to scrutinize buyers. But cash buyers have been a big hole in the government�s oversight of the market, Ms. Calvery said.

�Repeated anecdotal information where we see criminals of different stripes putting money into real estate all suggest to us that this is an area we need to pay attention to,� she said.

Your move uhh Jody Wilson-Raybould.

# ? Jan 13, 2016 20:28

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

Brent broke $30 motherfuckers

# ? Jan 13, 2016 20:30

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Cultural Imperial posted:

Brent broke $30 motherfuckers

Wonder how low the dollar will go. 65? 50? Total devaluation and replacement with Canadian Tire Money?

# ? Jan 13, 2016 20:42

Antifreeze Head: Jun 6, 2005; It begins; Pillbug

Baronjutter posted:

Wonder how low the dollar will go. 65? 50? Total devaluation and replacement with Canadian Tire Money?

Last time the dollar was in the 60's range I remember some restaurant owner in Detroit getting some free media coverage when he said he'd accept Canadian Tire money at par with the U.S. dollar. So if you know anyone that runs a business in a border town and is looking for some free coverage, feel free to pass that nugget along.

# ? Jan 13, 2016 21:05

the talent deficit: Dec 20, 2003; self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture

MickeyFinn posted:

Yes, let us not think for a second that in order to increase affordability for some while maintaining equity for others means that the two groups will have to be participating in different housing markets either by location, amenities or some other differentiation.

tiny coffins in the sky for some, crumbling suburban tombs on 33x120 lots for others

# ? Jan 13, 2016 21:18

Mandibular Fiasco: Oct 14, 2012

the talent deficit posted:

tiny coffins in the sky for some, crumbling suburban tombs on 33x120 lots for others

I'll vote for this!

# ? Jan 13, 2016 22:44

Myriarch: May 14, 2013

Honestly Canada possibly could segregate the housing market in two by having one sector require reporting buyer identities like the U.S. treasury is requiring and tax cash payments and the other be totally anonymous - funnel all the Chinese buyers into the latter and you've split the market.

# ? Jan 14, 2016 00:05

DariusLikewise: Oct 4, 2008; You wore that on Halloween?

Baronjutter posted:

Wonder how low the dollar will go. 65? 50? Total devaluation and replacement with Canadian Tire Money?

Canadian Tire money is going digital so I mean we would be progressive at the very least getting on board with non-physically currency.

# ? Jan 14, 2016 04:41

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

Canadian strippers will be really excited to US dollar bills

# ? Jan 14, 2016 05:12

Furnaceface: Oct 21, 2004

etalian posted:

Canadian strippers will be really excited to US dollar bills

The internet has killed a lot of that business, and its all outsourced as well anyway. :v:

Also global food prices are declining. Except in Canada where a head of cauliflower is currently at $7 because

# ? Jan 14, 2016 05:21

Risky Bisquick: Jan 18, 2008; PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.; Buglord

Furnaceface posted:

The internet has killed a lot of that business, and its all outsourced as well anyway.

Also global food prices are declining. Except in Canada where a head of cauliflower is currently at $7 because

I saw 6.99/lb asparagus, and 3.99/lb green beans. Why do they want me to eat nothing but carrots and potatoes all winter its ridiculous.

# ? Jan 14, 2016 06:58

Brannock: Feb 9, 2006; by exmarx; Fallen Rib

Asparagus is nine months out of season. Wait two months and enjoy all the piss-aromatic you can eat

# ? Jan 14, 2016 07:00

Risky Bisquick: Jan 18, 2008; PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.; Buglord

Brannock posted:

Asparagus is nine months out of season. Wait two months and enjoy all the piss-aromatic you can eat

Every direction but east of me is greenbelt farmland, grow some poo poo in greenhouses and I'll buy your ontario grown food for 6.99, I'm not paying 6.99 for Chilean asparagus. Not going to happen.

# ? Jan 14, 2016 07:02

Lexicon: Jul 29, 2003; I had a beer with Stephen Harper once and now I like him.

Brannock posted:

Asparagus is nine months out of season. Wait two months and enjoy all the piss-aromatic you can eat

Not targeting you specifically, but I'm sick of all the curmudgeons coming out of the woodwork to talk about how citrus was once a rare treat, and how in their day, you only got to eat whatever was "in season" (uphill both ways). Who gives a gently caress, grandad! We have awesome supply chains these days.

# ? Jan 14, 2016 07:03

Furnaceface: Oct 21, 2004

Lexicon posted:

Not targeting you specifically, but I'm sick of all the curmudgeons coming out of the woodwork to talk about how citrus was once a rare treat, and how in their day, you only got to eat whatever was "in season" (uphill both ways). Who gives a gently caress, grandad! We have awesome supply chains these days.

The total disconnect from modern technology always gets me. Why would painting your house green help something grow?! It still snows and gets cold!

With the skyrocketing food prices added onto the hilarious housing and rent costs, people in BC are going to be surviving on ketchup packets and day old timbits by the end of the year. And thats the doctors and lawyers!

# ? Jan 14, 2016 07:42

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

I know they're horribly out of season or what ever, but the usual peppers that were 3.99/lb last year were 4.99 most of this year and today they're loving 6.99. I don't know if this is our currency or the season or what but jesus, meat is cheaper than a god drat red pepper.

# ? Jan 14, 2016 07:58

I would blow Dane Cook: Dec 26, 2008

# ? Jan 14, 2016 09:43

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Furnaceface posted:

The total disconnect from modern technology always gets me. Why would painting your house green help something grow?! It still snows and gets cold!

With the skyrocketing food prices added onto the hilarious housing and rent costs, people in BC are going to be surviving on ketchup packets and day old timbits by the end of the year. And thats the doctors and lawyers!

Greenhouse farming is actually a booming industry in the Yukon, and responsible for driving the previously outrageous price (locally) of vegetables such as peppers to very reasonable levels. Turns out agriculture is really loving awesome in a land of 24/7 sunlight, when you use a little :science:

to fix the temperature problem. Who knew!

It's also a great example of why axing the homestead act everywhere except the Yukon was loving dumb, as these outfits wouldn't exist if the land wasn't still free for the taking up there.

# ? Jan 14, 2016 10:09

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

Buy frozen veggies

# ? Jan 14, 2016 14:23

Playstation 4: Apr 25, 2014; Unlockable Ben

Cultural Imperial posted:

Buy frozen veggies

# ? Jan 14, 2016 14:40

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

http://www.theprovince.com/touch/story.html?id=11650272&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

You know that Molson brewery that is zoned for industrial? Some mainlanders are going to build luxury condos there.

# ? Jan 14, 2016 14:46

Kafka Esq.: Jan 1, 2005; "If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Kafka Esq. posted:

If you're willing to work in trades, there are niche jobs out there that easily pay into 100k with overtime, generous benefits, and a pension plan in a union. For example, I didn't even know that non-destructive techs existed before now. The rabbit hole goes deep on that one - I looked at the Canada-wide union agreement and it only touches on the general certs covered by the agreement. However, working from a rope, underwater etc pays a big premium.

I'm sure that with enough research you can find these kinds of careers.

I'm still jealous of my aunt that translates legal documents into 5 or 6 languages from a beach in Spain.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5552638-the-hidden-100-000-job/

# ? Jan 14, 2016 15:04

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# ? May 13, 2024 09:45

DariusLikewise: Oct 4, 2008; You wore that on Halloween?

THC posted:

lol gently caress

Won't this just get shot down immediately or is there a loophole to exploit?

# ? Jan 14, 2016 17:27

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

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